Reiss: Growing pains for Pats' WR redo?

[Deus Irae]

So instead of debating my retort to your ridiculous statement that we cannot be positive Gronk won't miss the entire 2013 season to support your argument that the 2013 TEs are currently should be better from the 2006 version TE, you post this. Ok.

I am fairly positive Gronk will be on the field this year. Only an idiot would think him missing the entire season is anything but a remote possibility. He may not be 100% Gronk at all this year, but it is highly unlikely he will miss the entire season. If it was anything but a remote possibility, the Pats would have delayed the surgery until February of next year. It looked to be a necessary surgery, but not a surgery that had to be done this offseason.

BTW, I wasn't responding to your post "should be better". I was countering your argument about the state of the current 2013 TE situation. Nowhere in my post did I mention your "should be better" comment or compare 2013 TEs with the 2006 TEs. I am just countering your take on Gronk's and Hernandez's health situations. I countered your reasoning, not the statement comparing the two TE classes.

You apparently chose to ignore what I'd written, since it included

I expect both to be ready, given the reports that are out there, but I'm not fool enough to claim certainty.

That's on you, not me. Now, unless you want to rail against more straw men of your own creation, or can prove that you've discovered and mastered time travel, I think we can move on.

 

[Mack Herron]

This year could be a down year for the O if gronk can't stay on the field and dobson doesn't work out. I have faith in the D this year. Our running game will still be very good this year. Just hopefully having #12 back there will elevate the WRs/TEs

If "doesn't work out" is defined as anything short of becoming an immediate NFL starter and having better production as an NFL rookie than he had at Marshall last year, then I think a lot of folks will be disappointed. This guy was drafted for his upside more than his ability to step right in, and it usually takes a couple of years. Anything is possible, of course, but none of the WRs currently on the roster can reasonably be expected to put up anything like the production we saw last year from he who shall not be named. DA might approach Lloyd's production. More likely we will see lots guys rotating through (perhaps satisfying those who interpret Brady's throwing to the open receiver in 2012 as "forcing" the ball).

 

[Bruins29]

none of the WRs currently on the roster can reasonably be expected to put up anything like the production we saw last year from he who shall not be named.

And nobody should have to. More importantly, nobody should need to. Spread it around, be unpredictable and be unbalanced. Get some deep threats working and let TB12 do what he does best.

We have 3 potential probowl-all pro receivers already. That should be enough.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

The comparison to the 2006 receivers is a poor one, and that's unusual for Mike.

That 2006 set was beyond teh suck, save for Jabar Gaffney.

This statement is right on, no comparison necessary for 2006 what so ever. The receiving corps of 2006 was average at best and truly talentless in many aspects with the exception of Jabar Gaffney. I believe Troy Brown was nicked up for most of that season. This year's receiving corps no matter who makes the cut, which you can pretty much bet Danny Amendola, Aaron Dobson, Josh Boyce, Julian Edelman and Donald Jones are far more talented in every aspect and it's not even close. Rookie or no rookie, the physical, mental and versatile gifts are there in addition to the two gifted slot Receivers. So if Tom can make it to an AFC championship with that group back in 06, and no real tight-ends to speak of other than that of Ben Watson then what makes people think that he couldn't thrive with this potentially dangerous group of young men? And these days, we all know the young are faster, stronger, more athletic, hungry and eager to learn more times then not. And I love their VERSATILITY... something we definitely did not have the last few years.

 

[supafly]

If "doesn't work out" is defined as anything short of becoming an immediate NFL starter and having better production as an NFL rookie than he had at Marshall last year, then I think a lot of folks will be disappointed. This guy was drafted for his upside more than his ability to step right in, and it usually takes a couple of years. Anything is possible, of course, but none of the WRs currently on the roster can reasonably be expected to put up anything like the production we saw last year from he who shall not be named. DA might approach Lloyd's production. More likely we will see lots guys rotating through (perhaps satisfying those who interpret Brady's throwing to the open receiver in 2012 as "forcing" the ball).

I'm going to expect 6+ catches from Amendola myself on average. The bread and butter of our passing game is still going to go through the quick timing patterns that are developed by pre-snap reads and adjustments, not to mention taking advantage of mismatches. It will be important for Brady and Amendola to get/stay on the same page, or at least something in the vicinity for the majority of the time. While I do expect some growing pains, Amendola does have experience in the JMcD system, and asking him to jump off the LOS and catch 4-5 yd passes shouldn't be as hard as some are making it out to be.

6x16=96

I'm not sure why you'd compare Amendola's potential production to that of Brandon Llyod, who disappeared for long stretches aside from a couple of big games, couldn't beat man coverage to save his life, and had a tendency for falling down after the catch. If anything, Llyod was a possession receiver who was nothing more than an improvement on Deion Branch's 50 catch season the year before because he received more targets.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

If "doesn't work out" is defined as anything short of becoming an immediate NFL starter and having better production as an NFL rookie than he had at Marshall last year, then I think a lot of folks will be disappointed. This guy was drafted for his upside more than his ability to step right in, and it usually takes a couple of years. Anything is possible, of course, but none of the WRs currently on the roster can reasonably be expected to put up anything like the production we saw last year from he who shall not be named. DA might approach Lloyd's production. More likely we will see lots guys rotating through (perhaps satisfying those who interpret Brady's throwing to the open receiver in 2012 as "forcing" the ball).

Production last year? Production like what? Brandon Lloyd going down every time he catches the ball? Or let me guess, when defenses wouldn't even respect our ability to get deep because they knew Brandon Lloyd wouldn't challenge them down field. That's why they did what everybody else did, and clog the middle. That's what Baltimore did to us in the AFC Championship game, because they knew we couldn't take the top off and challenge them downfield. Who were we going to use? Wes? give me a break... Screw production, my definition of production is simply getting it done in the post season to help us advance to the Superbowl. I would easily rewind and take David Givens or David Patten over Brandon Lloyd any day..

 

[supafly]

This statement is right on, no comparison necessary for 2006 what so ever. The receiving corps of 2006 was average at best and truly talentless in many aspects with the exception of Jabar Gaffney.

Jabar Gaffney caught 11 balls for the NEP during the 2006 season. It isn't like he was the straw the stirred the drink. He came on better than we expected towards playoff time, but he certainly didn't have any kind of great season.

I don't understand any comparisons to the 06 WR corps, so in that vein we agree 100%.

Those who are comparing are doing so in terms of apples vs oranges. There are many better options than the 2006 receivers, as you said.

 

[Brady2Moss]

Who would've thought there were growing pains with 4/4 of the top 4 receivers from last year either having been cut, signed elsewhere, or injured would lead to growing pains in May/June OTAs .

This stuff doesn't matter there should be more attempts to find out what exactly is going on with Gronk's back rather then rehashing useless stuff like this.

 

[MoneyFX]

In terms of the production of the WRs, assuming Dobson and Amendola start and Edelman/Boyce get healthy, I see more of a balanced production among the WRs. Something like 1000 for Amendola, 700-800 for Dobson, 400-450 for the 3WR (Jones? Boyce? Edelman?) and maybe an extra 200-250 for the 4WR. I'm guessing a little more spread out for the yards (while taking account for the TEs/RBs/etc).

If the receivers work out well, I think there is potential for the position to be great, even better than last year, now that they have added speed and size to the WR corps. Could also be even better in the playoffs, especially when they face physical defenses that like to test them to go vertical.

 

[Gumby]

This is the kind of thing I hate about articles like this:

If 2007 was nirvana -- a chance to throw to Pro Bowl talents like Randy Moss and Wes Welker, with Jabar Gaffney and Donte' Stallworth mixed in with tight end Benjamin Watson -- this looks more like 2006 based on the present snapshot.

Reiss is busy comparing apples to oranges and then saying the oranges are too acidic.

He compares the point IN TC with a whole bunch of new guys to 2007 AFTER THE SEASON when the results are KNOWN.

At this point in the 2007 season; WW was a FA trade that was supposedly OVERPAID FOR by a 2nd rounder who only went 67 rec for 687yd the previous year - a LONG WAY from a PRO BOWL TALENT. And RM was considered ALMOST WASHED UP - FORMER PRO BOWLER with LESS production than WW and a locker-room cancer to boot - 42 rec for 553yds.

I am not saying that Boyce, Dobson, Jones, or Jenkins are going to be Probowlers. Amendola you could at least make the argument has a legitimate shot (if he stays healthy). But at the same point of season in 2007; I dont recall anyone except the hard-corest fanboys were saying WW & RM would be pro-bowlers /lead the league. Most were optimistic they would be GOOD=top 20 maybe (not top 3)- but still caveated that.

so as with most media copy this time of year - this is FILL JUNK; not much substance here - -- other than telling us who TB was throwing to on what field.

 

[JoeSixPat]

The comparison to the 2006 receivers is a poor one, and that's unusual for Mike.

That 2006 set was beyond teh suck, save for Jabar Gaffney.

Agreed - comparing the talent on offense in 2006 to the talent on this team doesn't place Reiss' analytical skills in the best light.

This team still needs to execute - but the talent simply wasn't there in 2006. Belichick was caught unprepared by Branch's hold out - and had no good backup plan.

Belichick has been considering the possibility of Welker and Lloyd leaving for quite some time. Whether HE executed well in bringing in new players also remains to be seen - but it's beyond too soon to compare this squad to 2006

The only thing one can agree with is the article title "Growing pains" - which of course is to be expected in early June. (Though Reiss likely doesn't write the headlines either, so I can't even give him credit for that!)

 

[JoeSixPat]

This is now.
Just wait. TFB's patience will wear thin. Bet on it.

Hopefully it doesn't come to that - but then again, I think your point probably is that Brady doesn't pull any punches period. In fact I seem to recall a few times when he and Welker weren't on the same page and Brady let him know.

(I guess I can't coun't Giselle's post-Super Bowl comment either - though to this day I still agree with her!)

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: Re: Reiss:Growing pains for Pats' WR redo

And nobody should have to. More importantly, nobody should need to. Spread it around, be unpredictable and be unbalanced. Get some deep threats working and let TB12 do what he does best.

We have 3 potential probowl-all pro receivers already. That should be enough.

Please enlighten me as to who are these three all-pro receivers on the pats roster...

 

[Bruins29]

Please enlighten me as to who are these three all-pro receivers on the pats roster...

I am including the TEs as "receivers." You can probably figure it out now.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Production last year? Production like what? Brandon Lloyd going down every time he catches the ball? Or let me guess, when defenses wouldn't even respect our ability to get deep because they knew Brandon Lloyd wouldn't challenge them down field. That's why they did what everybody else did, and clog the middle. That's what Baltimore did to us in the AFC Championship game, because they knew we couldn't take the top off and challenge them downfield. Who were we going to use? Wes? give me a break... Screw production, my definition of production is simply getting it done in the post season to help us advance to the Superbowl. I would easily rewind and take David Givens or David Patten over Brandon Lloyd any day..

Looks like someone didn't bother watching in 2012.

Had you actually watched last year,you could have noticed that the entire year was played without both of the two TE's that are the basis of the "two TE" system on the field and healthy.......at the same time.

Why this simple concept can't be grasped and the idiocy of "down field" and "clog the middle" is continually repeated is simply astounding.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Please enlighten me as to who are these three all-pro receivers on the pats roster...

Perhaps nobody has informed you that there are two TE's on the roster named Gronkowski and Hernandez that can catch the ball.

 

[supafly]

In terms of the production of the WRs, assuming Dobson and Amendola start and Edelman/Boyce get healthy, I see more of a balanced production among the WRs. Something like 1000 for Amendola, 700-800 for Dobson, 400-450 for the 3WR (Jones? Boyce? Edelman?) and maybe an extra 200-250 for the 4WR. I'm guessing a little more spread out for the yards (while taking account for the TEs/RBs/etc).

If the receivers work out well, I think there is potential for the position to be great, even better than last year, now that they have added speed and size to the WR corps. Could also be even better in the playoffs, especially when they face physical defenses that like to test them to go vertical.

I hope we don't have hopes that are too lofty for Dobson. Personally, I think just the fact alone that he has the potential to upgrade the position with speed and downfield ability will be enough to be optimistic about. I hope that we all don't just measure his season on statistics alone.

I've said it before, but I honestly would be very happy with 40 catches from Dobson, especially if some of those catches are in the downfield variety; much like we saw from Brandon Tate's first real (redshirted) yr when he was basically a rookie.

Unfortunately, Tate did not have what Belichick wanted for reasons that were likely more than just talent alone--possibly his lack of picking up the playbook or even his attitude or work ethic, but in his rookie year we saw him put up an 18 ypc average and make some nice downfield grabs with only catching 24 balls all season.

More importantly he was able to draw some attention away from the safety and actually run his man downfield at times, which was beneficial to our offense in other ways. I'm not saying that Tate's rookie year should be the bar for which we measure Dobson, because we all want something more of course, but if Dobson only catches 35-40 balls, he can still be considered an upgrade based on "other" measurables aside from just statistical ananlysis.

 

[supafly]

Why this simple concept can't be grasped and the idiocy of "down field" and "clog the middle" is continually repeated is simply astounding.

As much as I agree with you in terms of the TE injuries, we all saw other times in the past couple of yrs when they were healthy and good defenses clogged the middle of the field too, which is probably what he's referring to.

The good thing is that not only should we have both Gronkowski/Hernandez back is many more games together, but our backup TEs are improved upon too. The fact that we should have Ballard, a much healthier and improved Fells (if he makes it to the 53 man roster), and some nice developmental talent in Sudfeld should all be reasons to have optimism about the TE game.

The WR corps (in my opinion) outside of Welker last year was almost pathetic. We had Edelman and Branch who had 21 and 16 catches apiece, and even Llyod was primarily a possession receiver who took over Branch's 2011 role when he had 50 catches.

 

[Jackson 2]

This year could be a down year for the O if gronk can't stay on the field and dobson doesn't work out. I have faith in the D this year. Our running game will still be very good this year. Just hopefully having #12 back there will elevate the WRs/TEs

Damn right! I see 4-12, if we're lucky. Nice to see someone around here finally being honest and removing the homer sunglasses. Thank you!

 

[Se7eN]

Hopefully with Brady losing his binkys he is forced to spread the ball more and not become unpredictable - this will be key against great defenses that we face in the off season