DRAFT DAY DISCUSSION The Official Rounds 2&3 2013 NFL Draft Thread

[Joker]

You are a troll, I tried reading your illogical responses with excessive bold and italics but just gave up after you tried acting like the D didn't collapse without Talib. You offer absolutely nothing to the discussion.

so your answer is you have no answer...it's just because YOU say so....what the hell does "you tried to act like the D didn't collapse without Talib" mean. They never got any pressure from the front seven all game because Talib got injured at the end of the first half...?

You have no answers because you don't have any understanding of NFL football nor the Patriots team itself.You speak in generalities and make wild, unsupported libels about players because you are filled with hate. Why?...who knows...people like you just exist on every board on the net.

 

[Rob0729]

Nope the one where I looked at BBs drafts with this team and didn't reduce the sample size to an arbitrary time point after where the guy that handles BB's phone calls and dinner orders was changed from Pioli to Caserio. It always has been BB so look at the entire sample and notice that rounds 2-4 = bust city and a handful of good players.

Enjoy the great Rutgers players we drafted in round 3 and a low-motor guy that quit on his team in round 2. Should have just kept the first round pick and selected a guy that could make an impact instead of sing the Rutgers fight song.

Actually, the Pats mostly whiffing in rounds 2-4 may be the small sample size, not the other way around. They have not been solid in every one of those rounds every year (but who is), but over the years they have gotten some really good players in rounds 2-4.

2000
None

2001
Matt Light (2nd)

2002
Deion Branch (2nd)
Jarvis Green (4th)

2003
Eugene Wilson (2nd)
Asante Samuel (4th)

2004
None

2005
Ellis Hobbs (3rd, not a great player but a starter)
Nick Kaczur (3rd)
James Sanders (4th)

2006
Dave Thomas (3rd, good player, but the Pats lost trying to sneak through waivers to the practice squad)
Stephen Gostkowski (4th)


2007
None

2008
None

2009
Pat Chung (2nd, several year starter)
Vollmer (2nd)

2010
Rob Gronkowski (2nd)
Brandon Spikes (2nd)
Aaron Hernandez (4th)

2011
Shane Vereen (2nd)
Stevan Ridley (3rd)

That is a lot of good players drafted in rounds 2-4 over the years.

 

[ausbacker]

I am not trying to manipulate anything. I think the Steelers are a bad team. I think if they hit a home run in the draft, they will still be a bad team just slightly better. I think their defense is too old in some areas and just not nearly talented enough in others. Their o-line still sucks.

It seems like you are just trying to throw it back on me because you desperately want to discredit me in pointing out that you are just throwing out a lot of opinions as facts and I am saying that none of us will know how any team does in this draft for a while. Yet, you still are throwing out your opinions as facts despite your passive agressive disclaimer you put on for another poster you had an argument with.

People get upset when other teams draft players they wanted on the Patriots. It's quite bizarre as it often detracts from the fact that we have new players to root for ON the Patriots.

 

[Brady2Moss]

so your answer is you have no answer...it's just because YOU say so....what the hell does "you tried to act like the D didn't collapse without Talib" mean. They never got any pressure from the front seven all game because Talib got injured at the end of the first half...?

You have no answers because you don't have any understanding of NFL football nor the Patriots team itself.You speak in generalities and make wild, unsupported libels about players because you are filled with hate. Why?...who knows...people like you just exist on every board on the net.

I stopped reading your post long before any questions came up. The D can't cover anyone when Talib goes down because they have no CB depth. They can't get a pass rush either and addressed that with a tweener that played in Conference USA, good job.

It is easy to speak in generalities with this team because they have had the same general issues for years and don't effectively address them due to obsession with value and bargain shopping.

No one is filled with hate, I'm not sure why you want me to tell you that **** smells like roses you have plenty of other fans on here to do that for you.

I will ignore you now because you are just interested in screaming out buzz words like hate, liar, etc. because you cannot stand someone telling you your favorite team has issues. Goodnight.

 

[Deus Irae]

Dues, maybe I'm reading your ire the wrong way but it might be better to just realize that safety is going to be a need again next season.

I agree that this is a likely outcome. It didn't have to be, though, which is the point. The team had the ammo to get a top safety prospect and two top WR prospect, while keeping some of the lower picks. Instead they dropped down and then drafted a quitter at a position where there was no need.*

* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.


P.S. sorry about the disclaimer nonsense, but I'm tired of hearing the same bleating sheep crying that I'm putting my opinion forth as fact when I'm doing the same thing they are, so I'm attempting to make absolutely clear something that should already be obvious.

 

[Rob0729]

This draft isn't mediocre at all. And if you really think it is then I challenge you to present a point by point case to me explaining why (that way it's easier for me to go point by point). In the end, you're saying that because you're having trouble justifying two of their selections today. That said, if they take Patton tomorrow, I'll be a much happier camper.

I am not trying to justify it at all. It was a bad pick. Just not that mad.

And yes, this is a bad draft. Everyone is saying this is a bad draft. The middle class is not horrible, but it is generally accepted and many clubs have said off the record that this is the worst draft in years. In fact, many think the best part of this draft is the sixth and seventh round.

In the end, I liked three of their picks and didn't like one. I don't get where you are getting I am having trouble justifying two selections. I think Collins may be my favorite selection of the day because he is exactly what I wanted. A solid outside pass rusher with speed. I am explaining why I think his motor issues may be overstated.

 

[Wilfork#75]

They preach best player available based on how they have scouted the players while also taking into consideration the needs of the team.

You claim you don't see any evidence of someone standing up to BB on that pick? Well, of course you don't. Because you aren't part of the process. You nor I have no idea what conversations have gone on between Caserio, Belichick, Robinson and Quinn. Do you honestly think that Belichick has put people into the Director of Pro Personnel, Director of College Scouting and Director of Pro Scouting positions who won't stand up to him? You think that Belichik has, all of a sudden, changes his modus operandi and decided to put people in place who just kiss his arse and say "Yes, BB"? Because that is basically what you are saying with your exaggerated claims right now. That BB changed what got him to 4 SBs with Pioli as the VP of Player Personnel.

Unlike you, I believe that BB learned from his 2007 mistakes of Maroney and Jackson. That he has gone back to trusting the process.

Seriously people. All you wannabe talent analysts need to get over yourselves already. None of you are working for an NFL team. None of you have actually STUDIED how to Scout players accordingly ( I know I haven't and it's why I stopped doing mocks and such). So, making these bold statements about the Pats Scouting department or Belichick or whatever is just you being arrogant. Plain and simple.

As for the Tavon Wilson pick, the jury is still out, but the kid did have a pretty respectable rookie year.

I think every single person sitting in that draft room, including Robert Kraft knows who is making the final decision, whether it is the consensus of the room or not. This is BB's team and he makes all the decisions. He puts people he trusts into positions of power, but in the end if he has final say. The reports were that the Pats were trying to trade the pick and couldn't, in the end I think they panicked and BB just took 'his' guy. When BB says "we are taking this guy" I don't think Nick Caserio or anyone else in that room will change his mind. If this was any other team they would be crucified for this pick, I don't see why the Pats should be any different.

And the early Super Bowl wins of the Pats were built on the drafts of previous regimes and the veteran talent BB put together. Plus a lucky 6th round pick that nobody including BB thought would be a 10th of the player he became. So lets not pretend that BB's drafting prowess was the reason for the early Super Bowls. He is a very good drafter, but he also makes some horrible, head scratching picks sometimes.

 

[Rob0729]

People get upset when other teams draft players they wanted on the Patriots. It's quite bizarre as it often detracts from the fact that we have new players to root for ON the Patriots.

The sad thing is that too many people on this board would rather see players fail to be right about not getting them than having them succeed and have them contribute to a winning team. Not saying Deus is one of them, but I think there are several people on this board who are.

 

[Kontradiction]

People get upset when other teams draft players they wanted on the Patriots. It's quite bizarre as it often detracts from the fact that we have new players to root for ON the Patriots.

It's not bizarre at all. The Pats completely reached one one of their picks tonight and took another position of need a bit too early when a coverage LB could have been had in the 4th or later. I do, however, like the selections of Ryan and Dobson. That being said, I would have preferred Woods. But Dobson is a big, physical receiver whose route running is polished. He wasn't the top receiver on my board but all three of those guys were already gone and the Pats didn't feel a need to trade up for two of them. They will be in the range of Patton tomorrow. I would love to see them pull the trigger on him.

 

[condon84]

The Ravens are another team that was able to successfully match up need with top end prospects without screwing around and drafting non-critical positions first.*



* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.

Ozzie is definitely one of the best GMs in the league. He goes and gets the players he feels will be good players. Not surprisingly, Dmitroff is also becoming the type of GM who goes and gets the players he feels will make an impact on his team. Both were under Belichick.

And lol at your disclaimer.

 

[Brady2Moss]

Actually, the Pats mostly whiffing in rounds 2-4 may be the small sample size, not the other way around. They have not been solid in every one of those rounds every year (but who is), but over the years they have gotten some really good players in rounds 2-4.

2000
None

2001
Matt Light (2nd)

2002
Deion Branch (2nd)
Jarvis Green (4th)

2003
Eugene Wilson (2nd)
Asante Samuel (4th)

2004
None

2005
Ellis Hobbs (3rd, not a great player but a starter)
Nick Kaczur (3rd)
James Sanders (4th)

2006
Dave Thomas (3rd, good player, but the Pats lost trying to sneak through waivers to the practice squad)
Stephen Gostkowski (4th)


2007
None

2008
None

2009
Pat Chung (2nd, several year starter)
Vollmer (2nd)

2010
Rob Gronkowski (2nd)
Brandon Spikes (2nd)
Aaron Hernandez (4th)

2011
Shane Vereen (2nd)
Stevan Ridley (3rd)

That is a lot of good players drafted in rounds 2-4 over the years.

There have been far more busts. Chung stinks and never was anything more than a flash in the pan from a couple good games in prime time in the 2010 season.

2000
Klemm
Redmond
Randall

2001
Brock Williams
Kenyatta Jones
Jabari Holloway

2002
Rohan Davey

2003
Bethel Johnson
Dan Klecko

2004
Marquise Hill
Guss Scott
Dexter Reid
Cedric Cobbs

2005
Claridge

2006
Garrett Mills
Ryan O'Callaghan

2007
Kareem Brown

2008
Wheatley
Crable
O'Connell
Wilhite

2009
Chung
Brace
Butler
Tate
McKenzie
Ohrnberger

2010
Cunningham
Price

2011
Ras-IR Dowling
Mallett (Done nothing and shown nothing in the NFL)

2012
Bequette

32 busts to 17 players you listed that were serviceable or great

Vastly increasing your odds of a bust when you trade down for "value" and you do not usually end up with 2 good players as people here like to act. We usually end up with 1 good player for every 2 bad ones. Why not stick with the 1st round pick and have a higher chance of that 1 player being good? Especially with this team that has rebuilt, the strategy to trade down was a sound one from 09-2012 because we needed to rebuild and needed players. Not now when we have limited roster spots because of the massive influx of players the last few years via the draft.

Again all you are doing is making my point that when you trade down you make it harder to find impact given BB's track record. You are not trading down and getting double and triple the impact many on this board act like these trades bring.

 

[Rob0729]

It's not bizarre at all. The Pats completely reached one one of their picks tonight and took another position of need a bit too early when a coverage LB could have been had in the 4th or later. I do, however, like the selections of Ryan and Dobson. That being said, I would have preferred Woods. But Dobson is a big, physical receiver whose route running is polished. He wasn't the top receiver on my board but all three of those guys were already gone and the Pats didn't feel a need to trade up for two of them. They will be in the range of Patton tomorrow. I would love to see them pull the trigger on him.

I don't think they took Collins as a coverage LB. I expect him probably to play a DE on passing downs where he could rush the passer or drop into coverage on certain plays. I think people may be assuming wrong if they think he is going to be a coverage LB. I think he is going to eventually take over the Ninkovich role assuming he pans out since Nink is a free agent after this season.

 

[ausbacker]

The sad thing is that too many people on this board would rather see players fail to be right about not getting them than having them succeed and have them contribute to a winning team. Not saying Deus is one of them, but I think there are several people on this board who are.

Deus absolutely is one of them. He's a smart guy, nobody can deny that but he bleats like a goat when the team doesn't make a move that makes him happy.

At the end of the day, it's Robert Kraft's money that is being spent. I count myself lucky to be a supporter of one of better run organisations in world sport.

 

[Kontradiction]

I am not trying to justify it at all. It was a bad pick. Just not that mad.

And yes, this is a bad draft. Everyone is saying this is a bad draft. The middle class is not horrible, but it is generally accepted and many clubs have said off the record that this is the worst draft in years. In fact, many think the best part of this draft is the sixth and seventh round.

In the end, I liked three of their picks and didn't like one. I don't get where you are getting I am having trouble justifying two selections. I think Collins may be my favorite selection of the day because he is exactly what I wanted. A solid outside pass rusher with speed. I am explaining why I think his motor issues may be overstated.

This isn't a bad draft. It's one that wasn't top heavy, but was at least three rounds deep at positions of need. Again, I need you to present a case to me why it was a bad draft, because you just saying it was a bad draft in response isn't cutting it. As a matter of fact, it sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about and didn't spend a whole lot of time following these kids, or college football in general. And that is being said with all due respect.

 

[Rob0729]

There have been far more busts. Chung stinks and never was anything more than a flash in the pan from a couple good games in prime time in the 2010 season.

2000
Klemm
Redmond
Randall

2001
Brock Williams
Kenyatta Jones
Jabari Holloway

2002
Rohan Davey

2003
Bethel Johnson
Dan Klecko

2004
Marquise Hill
Guss Scott
Dexter Reid
Cedric Cobbs

2005
Claridge

2006
Garrett Mills
Ryan O'Callaghan

2007
Kareem Brown

2008
Wheatley
Crable
O'Connell
Wilhite

2009
Chung
Brace
Butler
Tate
McKenzie
Ohrnberger

2010
Cunningham
Price

2011
Ras-IR Dowling
Mallett (Done nothing and shown nothing in the NFL)

2012
Bequette

32 busts to 17 players you listed that were serviceable or great

Vastly increasing your odds of a bust when you trade down for "value" and you do not usually end up with 2 good players as people here like to act. We usually end up with 1 good player for every 2 bad ones. Why not stick with the 1st round pick and have a higher chance of that 1 player being good? Especially with this team that has rebuilt, the strategy to trade down was a sound one from 09-2012 because we needed to rebuild and needed players. Not now when we have limited roster spots because of the massive influx of players the last few years via the draft.

Again all you are doing is making my point that when you trade down you make it harder to find impact given BB's track record. You are not trading down and getting double and triple the impact many on this board act like these trades bring.

What do you think is the track record of most teams in the league. Fact of the matter is if you get two starters and one or two role players out of a draft, you had a pretty good draft. If you get much more, odds are you had a great draft.

Look at most teams and they have far more busts between rounds 2-4 than hits.

 

[ausbacker]

It's not bizarre at all. The Pats completely reached one one of their picks tonight and took another position of need a bit too early when a coverage LB could have been had in the 4th or later. I do, however, like the selections of Ryan and Dobson. That being said, I would have preferred Woods. But Dobson is a big, physical receiver whose route running is polished. He wasn't the top receiver on my board but all three of those guys were already gone and the Pats didn't feel a need to trade up for two of them. They will be in the range of Patton tomorrow. I would love to see them pull the trigger on him.

The team took players in positions of need. I'm perfectly at ease with the Patriots draft position mainly because I use the college game and scouting reports as guides rather than gospel. Sure, we all have binkies, I guess I'm just not that fussed if they aren't taken by the industry professionals working in the Patriots organisation.

 

[DaBruinz]

The year we picked Vollmer:
Butler, Brace, Chung.

How'd that work out?
4 picks, one starter 25%.

Out of the 20 - that is 2-0, TWENTY - defensive backs we've taken, how many are elite? How feared is our ELITE SECONDARY after all these awesome DB picks cut from gold cloth? We're so great we needed to flip a 4th round to team to get a CB with a pass defense worse than ours.

And just what does sycophant mean anyway?

Oh boy. Another real "intelligent" guy who doesn't know what he's talking about.

I have news for you. Chung was a starter for 3 years. 2010, 2011 and 2012. During that time, there were only 5 games he played in that he didn't start. 2010 he was 13/14, 2011 he was 8/8, and 2012 he was 8/12. If you want to moan about him being injured, that's a different story.


Lets LOOK at what the Patriots have drafted since Belichick got here for both CB and Safety(not including 2013).

CB:
Brock Williams, Leonard Myers, Asante Samuel, Christian Morton, Ellis Hobbs, Mike Richardson, Terrence Wheatley, Jonathan Wilhite, Darius Butler, Devin McCourty, Ras-I Dowling, Alfonzo Dennard.

Safety:
Antwan Harris, Hakim Akbar, Eugene Wilson, Dexter Reid, Guss Scott, James Sanders, Willie Andrews, Brandon Meriweather, Patrick Chung, Malcolm Williams, Nate Ebner, Tavon Wilson

Now, that totals 24 picks since 2000. However, 5 of those 24 were taken in the last 2 years and the jury is still out on them. So that is 19 picks. Of those 19, We've had 3 full-time starters among the CBs and 4 full-time starters among the safeties. Going further, Antwan Harris was an important special teamer for his 4 years with the team.

The pick breakdown goes like this:
1st round: Brandon Meriweather, Devin McCourty
2nd round: E. Wilson, P. Chung, D. Butler, T.Wheatley, R. Dowling, T. Wilson
3rd round: Brock Williams, Ellis Hobbs, G. Scott
4th round: James Sanders, Asante Samuel, D. Reid, Wilhite
5th round: Hakim Akbar,
6th round: Antwan Harris, Leonard Myers, Mike Richardson, Nate Ebner
7th round: Christian Morton, Willie Andrews, Malcom Williams

So, 7 out of 19 picks have been successful with 5 (now 7 with Harmon and Ryan) with the jury still out on them.

Please go look around the rest of the league and see other success rates..

 

[Kontradiction]

The sad thing is that too many people on this board would rather see players fail to be right about not getting them than having them succeed and have them contribute to a winning team. Not saying Deus is one of them, but I think there are several people on this board who are.

This isn't true at all.

I don't think they took Collins as a coverage LB. I expect him probably to play a DE on passing downs where he could rush the passer or drop into coverage on certain plays. I think people may be assuming wrong if they think he is going to be a coverage LB. I think he is going to eventually take over the Ninkovich role assuming he pans out since Nink is a free agent after this season.

Collins was very inconsistent as a pass rusher. His technique, in particular, was also inconsistent. I would say something about his effort, but my opinion on that comes from the eye test and isn't a measurable so I'll leave it at that.

As for what he was drafted for, look at his three cone and 40. He was drafted to be a coverage LB, CLEARLY. There is no question about that. The reason I rated him as a meh is because he seems to be an upgrade to anybody else we have there currently.

 

[Rob0729]

This isn't a bad draft. It's one that wasn't top heavy, but was at least three rounds deep at positions of need. Again, I need you to present a case to me why it was a bad draft, because you just saying it was a bad draft in response isn't cutting it. As a matter of fact, it sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about and didn't spend a whole lot of time following these kids, or college football in general. And that is being said with all due respect.

I don't need to do anything. I was saying this was a bad draft before the Pats even picked.

I have said a million times I am no draftnick. I am only going by what has been reported. And it has been reported by multiple sources that this draft sucks. From Mike Freeman:

There are always a variety of opinions about the NFL Draft. Opinions are like, well, you know. But a high-ranking team executive I trust implicitly says this: "Worst draft in past 10 years or longer."

"When we look back at this draft in five or 10 years," said the team executive, "we might view it as one of the worst we've seen in some time."

What I'm hearing repeatedly from some team personnel men, as the draft gets closer and the honesty increases, is that this draft is subpar. Extremely subpar. Few team personnel want to say anything publicly about the paucity of talent out of fear of hearing from the NFL. There's this thought process that if you criticize the draft, you risk the ire of the NFL; the league doesn't want anyone publicly criticizing the draft out of fear of injuring television ratings.
.

GM: Worst NFL Draft in past 10 years or more - CBSSports.com

You don't want to take my opinion of valid because you refuse to valid my point. No offense intended.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus absolutely is one of them. He's a smart guy, nobody can deny that but he bleats like a goat when the team doesn't make a move that makes him happy.

This is certainly one of the more idiotic things you've ever posted. I never want a Patriots player to fail, and I've made it clear that I'm talking about the process here, and not the eventual outcome. If every player they drafted becomes a HOF candidate, I'll be thrilled by their play, and I'll still consider the process of the draft to have been a complete pooch screw, just as I've defended the Tate pick in the face of people who scream about Wallace, even though Tate failed here, because I've always considered Tate to be a flier pick at the end of a series of need picks.



* Disclaimer: This is the poster's opinion of the points being raised specifically in the quoted post, about the general discussion at hand, and he realizes that others may agree or disagree. He considers that understood on a message board.