Felger and Reiss go at it over Welker

[shmessy]

When Reiss tossed out the "and that's reporting Mike" line, I guarantee Felger had to bite his tongue and fight the urge to say "No Mike Reiss, that's you sticking to the Patriots talking points." We all know ESPN is in bed with the NFL, and these local ESPN spin offs are reliant on carpet bombing content. Reiss isn't providing hourly updates, stories, etc because he has the time to be super reporter and writer. Not a chance....no doubt their is a mutual understanding between NE and ESPN. Reiss' tone regarding all things NEP is too conciliatory too think any differently. Felger knows how it works and basically called out Reiss.

Look at what Reiss is hinting at today....Talib may go for a 1 year "prove it" contract now. Again, no agent would ever float this but a team definitely would. Reiss' "that's reporting, Mike" was a petty comment based on the reality of how wrong he was after writing how "optimistic" both sides were regarding WW 2 weeks ago. Far from reality.....and "that's the truth, Mike."

Borg with the Whiff of the Year.

Wow. Of course! ESPN is in bed with the New England Patriots!!!!

Talk about someone who evidently slept through Spygate.

Next, Borg will tell us all how North Korea is a Jeffersonian Democracy and Switzerland is a fascist, militaristic nation.

 

[Ring 6]

Random question:
If the Patriots believed he was worth 2/10 after he had a year in which he played as well as could be hoped for and one in which they decided to pay him 9.5m.

So why not let him hit free agency last year, offer 3 / 18, and allowed him to shop around and either ended up cutting him (since 9.5 is more than they value a slot) or have had him sign at a decent rate (since 6 is what they value a slot)

Thats an excellent question, and one that has been overlooked.
To me it is blatant evidence that although Welkers production was still there, the drops, and wear and tear made BB feel his value had significantly decline during this year. There really is no other conclusion.
BB offer 3/24 or 1/9.3 12 months ago, then after watching those 12 months unfold he wouldn't go over 2/10. That speaks volumes.

 

[Off The Grid]

Isn't this pretty much a Jason Versus Freddy deal??

~ Reiss is a bland, boring stooge who never adds analytical Value.

~ Feltcher is a slobbering, snot-bubbling, idiotic Troll.

 

[Tunescribe]

I overheard a rumor in Home Depot today that this is the Fleger-Reiss thread. Is that true?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Thats an excellent question, and one that has been overlooked.
To me it is blatant evidence that although Welkers production was still there, the drops, and wear and tear made BB feel his value had significantly decline during this year. There really is no other conclusion.
BB offer 3/24 or 1/9.3 12 months ago, then after watching those 12 months unfold he wouldn't go over 2/10. That speaks volumes.

I think thats part of it for sure..

Leading the league in drops, top 10 in drops per targets and having his catch % per targets decrease in each of the last 2 seasons certainly didn't help his case.

I also think that last year's FA market for WR and total money available to spend was much less depressed than this year's WR FA market.

As you say, being one year older one more year of pounding on a 5'9' frame surely factored into their thought process.

Lastly, I think the team feels a bit more prepared to absorb his departure than last year (having Lloyd, Amendola in their back-pocket, established running game, etc.).

 

[Funktopus]

Haven't seen it mentioned, but had the Pats not moved on to DA would WW have taken the deal on the table? would the Pats match the guaranteed money offered by Denver? Would the donkeys improve their offer?

If you believe "slot receiver" is a homogeneous commodity that should raise the price for DA.

 

[Tunescribe]

I side with Reiss on this one. I felt all along that Welker was being pushed by his agent into free agency, especially when he he turned down what reportedly seemed a quite reasonable offer from the Pats a year or so ago. As Reiss said, it never should've come to this. Sad.

 

[Real World]

It pains me to say this, but Felger is right here. Reiss can't possibly believe that the Welker went back to the Pats looking for 3/$24, after Denver offered 2/$12. None of what he says makes any sense. The tampering period definately would have given everyone involved an idea of where the market would generally be for players. If Welker was looking for 3/$24 prior to it, he'd have known either during that period, or by the actual FA opening on Tuesday, whether or not that was realistic. Clearly it wasn't. The bottom line is that the Patriots didn't want Welker back.

 

[Tunescribe]

The bottom line is that the Patriots didn't want Welker back.

Take Amendola out of the equation and Wes still would be a Patriot.

 

[patfanken]

Thats an excellent question, and one that has been overlooked.
To me it is blatant evidence that although Welkers production was still there, the drops, and wear and tear made BB feel his value had significantly decline during this year. There really is no other conclusion.
BB offer 3/24 or 1/9.3 12 months ago, then after watching those 12 months unfold he wouldn't go over 2/10. That speaks volumes.

There are a couple of more possible reasons the Pats gave him the franchise money last season. and that's probably why the took it off the table after he rejected it.

1. They thought the that they would be able to work out a longer term deal before the start of the season. Remember most people thought they'd reach a deal before camp. The funny (well actually not funny) but it turns out the Pats knew they were offering him an above market deal when the made the guaranteed 2 for $16MM

2.The market for WR's and the available cap room was different

3. They didn't have Lloyd at the time. Branch was a FA, etc. Not letting Welker hit FA was more important last season.

4. Maybe the Pats decided it was the right thing to do, by paying Welker a few million above the market to make up for some years when he was a bargain.

This is all speculation of course, but at least to some degree were part of the thought process

BTW- I read recently that the contract he signed with the Broncos gives Denver an out after the first year. That the 2nd year money only becomes guaranteed if he's on the roster in March. That really makes that deal a one year $6MM contract. That makes more sense for Denver since they have to sign Thomas and Decker next year. BUT how did that make it a better deal that what the Pats offered? .....if its true that is.

 

[shmessy]

It pains me to say this, but Felger is right here. Reiss can't possibly believe that the Welker went back to the Pats looking for 3/$24, after Denver offered 2/$12. None of what he says makes any sense. The tampering period definately would have given everyone involved an idea of where the market would generally be for players. If Welker was looking for 3/$24 prior to it, he'd have known either during that period, or by the actual FA opening on Tuesday, whether or not that was realistic. Clearly it wasn't. The bottom line is that the Patriots didn't want Welker back.

They wanted him back. At 2yrs/$10 million with incentives of $6 million ($2 million of which were deemed attainable at his current performance rate). Welker, knew the final offer from the Pats was about the same as that of the Broncos (but both were perhaps less than whatever Tennesse - - where he obviously didn't want to land - was). Welker (and his agent) have egos and pride (not a bad thing) and didn't want to lose face by caving to the Pats and playing the next two years with his tail between his legs. He goes to the Broncos and noticeably doesn't dwell on it when pressed at his inaugural press conference - - he just wants to turn the page.

Meanwhile, back in NE, the successor to the Borges "If I contrarian for a long enough time and hang in there, I will look like a genius when the Pats run finally DOES end" Felger is upset that the Pats "Wanted him at THEIR price".

Were it not just an act on Felger's part, I'd like to open a store where Mr. Felger and wife can shop - - it'd be a great source of income.

 

[Raymond]

It pains me to say this, but Felger is right here. Reiss can't possibly believe that the Welker went back to the Pats looking for 3/$24, after Denver offered 2/$12. None of what he says makes any sense. The tampering period definately would have given everyone involved an idea of where the market would generally be for players. If Welker was looking for 3/$24 prior to it, he'd have known either during that period, or by the actual FA opening on Tuesday, whether or not that was realistic. Clearly it wasn't. The bottom line is that the Patriots didn't want Welker back.

That's not what Reiss said. Listen again. He said Welker was still at that 3/24 number when FA started. The Pats then moved on as Amendola was being sought by others.

Also, listening to Wes's pc in Denver gave me the impression he wasn't really happy leaving.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Take Amendola out of the equation and Wes still would be a Patriot.

Based on what I've read, after negotiations with the team broke off during the tampering period and WW hit the market, the team moved quickly on Amendola.

However... Part of me thinks that if the Amendola negotiations hit a snag and he signed with another team, I really do wonder if the Pats would have upped their offer not because Denver offered more, but for reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread (performance, age, market, etc).

In essence, based on all of those things being damned the Pats were not budging a nickel.

 

[Patradomous]

When Reiss tossed out the "and that's reporting Mike" line, I guarantee Felger had to bite his tongue and fight the urge to say "No Mike Reiss, that's you sticking to the Patriots talking points." W

I heard the exchange yesterday.
IMO Mike Reiss has always been an honest broker regarding the Pats.
Felger loves to speculate based on whats the most controversial.

Reiss broke down the time line on how crap went down.
Felger went with his same narrative of crapping on the Pats even though Reiss timeline didn't jive with what Felger was spouting off about.
And Felger tried to backfit everything to make his point.

In the end nether one new exactly what went down.

 

[PATSNUTme]

I overheard a rumor in Home Depot today that this is the Fleger-Reiss thread. Is that true?

A guy at Wal-Mart broke the story first.

Reiss is the type of reporter that is missing badly today. He gets all the info and reports it and lets the readers make up their minds.

I don't want him to be biased to the team or a bomb thrower like Borges. Just give us the info without a slant or a bias, that's all I want.

 

[Shockt327]

Random question:
If the Patriots believed he was worth 2/10 after he had a year in which he played as well as could be hoped for and one in which they decided to pay him 9.5m.

So why not let him hit free agency last year, offer 3 / 18, and allowed him to shop around and either ended up cutting him (since 9.5 is more than they value a slot) or have had him sign at a decent rate (since 6 is what they value a slot)

Because last year didn't have a flat cap. This year does. That lowers Welker's (and just about everyone's) value.

So, if NE let Welker hit the market last year; he would've gotten offers that were way above 6/mil/per and probably well within the 8-9/mil/per range.

 

[Tunescribe]

Based on what I've read, after negotiations with the team broke off during the tampering period and WW hit the market, the team moved quickly on Amendola.

However... Part of me thinks that if the Amendola negotiations hit a snag and he signed with another team, I really do wonder if the Pats would have upped their offer not because Denver offered more, but for reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread (performance, age, market, etc).

In essence, based on all of those things being damned the Pats were not budging a nickel.

It looks to me that they signed Amendola when they could, because they didn't want to risk Wes getting a sweeter deal with Denver or elsewhere and then losing out on both of them. But I blame Welker's agent for wrecking things a long time ago. He could've taken the above-market deal offered by the Patriots way back.

 

[Shockt327]

When Reiss tossed out the "and that's reporting Mike" line, I guarantee Felger had to bite his tongue and fight the urge to say "No Mike Reiss, that's you sticking to the Patriots talking points." We all know ESPN is in bed with the NFL, and these local ESPN spin offs are reliant on carpet bombing content. Reiss isn't providing hourly updates, stories, etc because he has the time to be super reporter and writer. Not a chance....no doubt their is a mutual understanding between NE and ESPN. Reiss' tone regarding all things NEP is too conciliatory too think any differently. Felger knows how it works and basically called out Reiss.

Look at what Reiss is hinting at today....Talib may go for a 1 year "prove it" contract now. Again, no agent would ever float this but a team definitely would. Reiss' "that's reporting, Mike" was a petty comment based on the reality of how wrong he was after writing how "optimistic" both sides were regarding WW 2 weeks ago. Far from reality.....and "that's the truth, Mike."

Felger? Is that you?

 

[BSR]

I listened live and I thought Reiss had poor arguments, avoided directly answering questions, and had difficulty connecting the dots on a complicated subject.

For instance, his story two weeks ago on how both parties wanted the same thing and how there was optimism to get a deal done ....complete homer bunk.
What we know now....according to Reiss, the WW camp was asking for 3/$24 all along but either the Pats didn't have an offer on the table (reporters reporting the NEP hadn't submitted their first offer until the final day of tampering) or according to Reiss (again on the 3rd tampering day) that an offer was on the table and we learn after the fact it was 2/$10 plus incentives. Using this knowledge, Reiss writes there's "optmism" ???? Sorry .....1 year and $14 mill apart. You don't write such a story when the facts don't support the argument. Clearly he was being fed some crap and he bit. A few days later, Bob Kraft rolls out his "I love WW and Patriot for Like" schtick.......Starting to sound familiar????

That had to be the lamest "gotcha" moment in all of sports radio history. Felger wants to fault him for reporting both sides were optimistic about getting a deal done? Oh the humanity! I mean what a stupid point to go after. What in the world does that show either way? Its not like Reiss was privy to the exact conversations or negotiations so if both sides come to him telling him things are going well, then what else is he supposed to report? Talk about strawman arguments. Great job knocking that one over Felger! Yeah you sure proved...something.

The fact that you fell for that one does say something however.

 

[Tunescribe]

I heard the exchange yesterday.
IMO Mike Reiss has always been an honest broker regarding the Pats.
Felger loves to speculate based on whats the most controversial.

Reiss broke down the time line on how crap went down.
Felger went with his same narrative of crapping on the Pats even though Reiss timeline didn't jive with what Felger was spouting off about.
And Felger tried to backfit everything to make his point.

In the end nether one new exactly what went down.

Everything Felger says these days must be taken with a grain of salt. He transparently epitomizes what's wrong with broadcast "journalism," which is stirring the pot and emphasizing controversy to keep people listening/viewing.