If PSU gets the Death Penalty What Happens to O'Brien?

[Deus Irae]

Clearly, Penn State thought the NCAA had the authority to levy the sanctions. If the university felt they had legal precedence to fight it, they had $60m reasons to do so.

That's not clear at all. Clearly, those making the decisions at Penn State felt that this was a viable alternative to other possibilities, regardless of their actual belief as to whether or not the NCAA was acting legitimately. Beyond that we cannot say. If you're really interested in the issue, though, ESPN did a piece on it:

Penn State Nittany Lions not facing 'death penalty' Monday by NCAA, source says - ESPN

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus, to me you're making a lot of statements here but I haven't seen you take the time to back it up yet. Pointing out there are those on the other side of the argument who are incapable of being impartial is not evidence enough. Why is there no competitive advantage here? You can say there isn't, but I want to know why. I think there's a cogent argument suggesting there is - and its not just coming from some lynch mob.

It's tough to back up something as basic as "A is not B" when people are insisting that A is B despite the obvious fact that A is not B.

However, if you think your "competitive advantage" argument through, you'll find that every single act that might conceivably be considered bad by someone in the NCAA could be brought under "competitive advantage" through the use of your claim as to its meaning. That would include something like Pitino not coming public about that woman he had sex with in the bar, for example. On the NFL level, your argument would mean that Ryan's decision to keep his foot fetish a secret would be a means of achieving competitive advantage.

 

[BradyManny]

It's tough to back up something as basic as "A is not B" when people are insisting that A is B despite the obvious fact that A is not B.

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, important men in the program conspiring to protect their brand has a real link to recruiting power.

 

[Ron Sellers]

First, a disclaimer: I have never set foot in Happy Valley. I don't pretend to know for an absolute fact what the consensus is or has been within the Penn State community. My opinions are formed based on what I have seen, heard and read from the students, community and alumni - and that may or may not be representative of that group.


I got the impression that those groups (let me just refer to them as 'PSU') collectively have been in denial, rationalized what happened, minimized the effect, and blindly defended the school and the football program, and more specifically Paterno. That's my opinion, and I don't believe I'm alone in that regard.

I can't help but wonder that others saw that and thought the same thing - specifically in light of today's news, the NCAA. The reaction from 'PSU' was a vocal knee jerk defense of any and every accusation. To those on the outside, like me, that's a case of the program becoming so big and so revered that it was like the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. This culture of the football program becoming more important than anything else, to the point that otherwise sane people would rationalize multiple rapes of children is an indictment of how out of whack priorities had become.

To me the response of the NCAA may well have been in part due to the way 'PSU' was reacting and continued to blindly defend their own. It's a message not just to them that they are wrong for thinking that way, but also a message to every other football program that they cannot allow that to happen in their own community.


On a separate note, I actually have more of an issue with Paterno, Spanier, Schultz and Curley than I do with Sandusky. To me Sandusky was a person with a severe mental illness; he most likely was abused as a child, a wire went loose, and he repeated the offense. The others knew of his problem and inability to deal with it - but did nothing. Not only did they not act, they permitted and implicitly allowed the unspeakable acts to continue.

 

[Deus Irae]

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, important men in the program conspiring to protect their brand has a real link to recruiting power.

That's not competitive advantage. The fact that people have to keep telling you something so obvious makes my point about the A/B issue.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I reject this point of view entirely. The Penn State football program WAS run ethically. Players weren't paid to play. They went to class. Recruiting rules were followed, etc etc

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all the incidents that Sandowski committed happen within the confines of his "youth foundation"? Can the crimes of ONE man, and the inaction of perhaps 3 or 4 more condemn an entire program and wipe out the efforts on hundreds of people over the past decade.

Punish the man who committed the crime. Penalize the people who didn't act appropriately. But those were crimes and inactions that were committed by INDIVIDUALS and they should be punished as such

I have often felt that NCAA punishments never fit the crime. If a coach recruits illegally Fire the coach, and keep him out of the NCCA for a period of years. Penalize the player who took the gratuity and not let him matriculate to an NCCA college. Fire the AD and president if "lack of institutional control" issues can be proved. Those are the kind of penalties that would effect REAL change. Why punish a hundred or so kids as staff who are doing the job correctly for the sins of a few renegades.

Penn State isn't blameless in all this, but simply punishing the entire program with a near death penalty is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Punishing the innocent just because the guilty were part of the program isn't justice.

Enablers are more ignorant than innocent...

This is a good read about the administrator Joe and his cronies and their enablers drove out of Happy Valley for fear she'd make the football family unhappy by actually enforcing discipline and holding players accountable. This story underscores the existence of a culture that would allow a pedophile to retain emerius priviledges and the keys to the locker room...rather than admit that he ever existed. No blemishes existed in Happy Valley where Jo Pa raised a legion of perfect players lesser men could hardly of dream of producing. Sad part is even those outside of Happy Valley but within the Big Ten community knew something wasn't right with the whole Sandusky retirement scenario over that time but they had no inkling just what depravity it entailed.

An institution is being punished for being complicit in allowing a culture to develop and exist and become so ingrained over time that resulted in children being lured into being abused on their watch and even in their factilities for years. Because no one crossed Joe or the entire friggin' Valley would shun them if not harrass and threaten and drive them out. The football program was perfection, and anyone who said otherwise was the enemy of all that stood for.

The woman who stood up to Joe Paterno - CNN.com

 

[BradyFTW!]

I was not comparing what LL did to me with what Paterno/Sandusky did to the kids. I was comparing what LL did to me to what the NCAA is doing to the PSU kids. Why the collective punishment?

Because that's life. Your actions affect others and others' actions, for better or wose, affect you. It's one of the things that you need to take into account before you associate with any person or institution: if you choose wrong, you are likely to suffer for crimes/failures that you didn't commit. It's not fair, but the alternative is even worse.

 

[Simple Jack's Brother]

Every objective analysis of the situation has suggested culture was an issue. You clearly have not been paying attention or listening to your fellow alums.

As for all the stuff you're accusing me of saying or insinuating, I did not say, so until you stop introducing strawmen, I'm not going to waste my time conversing with you.

If it was a culture issue, then where were all of JoePa's minions, running around trying to cover up his tracks? It was the actions of a few tremendously misguided and shameful men that caused this. There's no booster paying for the police to cover this up, there's not a bunch of football players who knew what was going on and just didn't speak up...this was the administration messing up on a COLOSSAL scale in every way possible.

 

[Simple Jack's Brother]

It is you who haven't a clue. You seem not to understand just how important Joe Paterno was/is to Penn State, and how fully integrated his sainthood was to the culture of the school. He easily could have been elected mayor, and perhaps congressman. No school security agent would have thought of crossing him, and no athletic director, no HR director, and, in the end, no school president.

If Joe Paterno didn't think that there was an issue, that would have good enough for any Penn State fan and certainly anyone on campus. The shock is that Joe Paterno knew and did little.

Obviously, if the fans knew that kids were being raped, this would not have been acceptable to them. No one is accusing Penn State fans of being uncaring monsters.

The issue is that Penn State fans will need to come to terms with the FACT that the their local folk hero and god was responsible for at best horrible judgement and immoral conduct. If he were still alive, he might have been indicted and certainly would have been sued for millions. Penn State fans are much more shocked and grieving over Paterno's involvement than regarding anything else. Crimes happen, even horrible ones. Heroes and gods (and their statues) come down with difficulty. The falling of heroes is much more difficult to deal with than crimes on campus.

If you read the indictment, Paterno DID report this matter to his superiors. He reported the allegations McQueary told him about to the HEAD OF CAMPUS POLICE, Gary Shultz. That's why Shultz is currently facing perjury charges and failure to report a crime, among other things, and Paterno was not named in the indictment.

 

[mgteich]

Everything you say is true. And you think that the HEAD OF CAMPUS POLICE would do ANYTHING that Joe Paterno didn't approve of? In order to better understand, you need to revise you perceived organization chart. Paterno had more power and authority than anyone at Penn State, although the President sometimes had more authority, even if he would be very unlikely to exercise such authority in opposition to Paterno.

Paterno did his legal duty so that the pesky paperwork would be acceptable, as he would with any reported violation. All right, I'll say it. Paterno simply didn't care. Apparently, he had more important issues to deal with than what was happening or not happening in the shower.
Juries in civil cases will decide who had legal responsibilities in these matters. Since Pterno is no long with us, his family may be spared the brunt of the suits. If he were alive, the suits would be endless.

If you read the indictment, Paterno DID report this matter to his superiors. He reported the allegations McQueary told him about to the HEAD OF CAMPUS POLICE, Gary Shultz. That's why Shultz is currently facing perjury charges and failure to report a crime, among other things, and Paterno was not named in the indictment.

 

[Rusty Coupe]

The phrase of the day seemed to be "changing the culture at PSU". Which leaves BoB in an interesting situation. Is he expected to try and remain competitive at a Big 10 level with one hand and both feet tied behind his back,or will PSU look to leave the Big 10 and find another level of competition? The other consideration being that all of the other mens and womens athletic programs are in the Big 10.

Before 1993, PSU was in the Atlantic 10 with exception of the football program, which was independent like Notre Dame football. With the Big East coming apart, the latest Pitt and Syracuse leaving, it might leave an opening for PSU to form a new alliance with the likes of Temple, Rutgers, Louisville, Connecticut, Cincinnati, and ??? Obviously there is a lot of money at stake, but there will probably be some big changes in the next five years, and what PSU expects of BoB and where he takes the program will be very interesting.

 

[lurker1965]

Well the NCAA sure showed the kids in the wrestling program, Baseball program, softball, track that they will crack down. The kids (many from economically disadvantaged backgrounds) who won't get scholarships for football that'll show em.

BTW what did they do to the AD and President and other administrators?

The shame of course is that Paterno is dead so he will never answer for his transgressions.

I had hoped that the Univ President , AD and others would have been sanctioned by the NCAA instead the kids in the athletic program who did nothing wrong get punished.

If the Administration is punished instead of the program you will see things cleaned up quick....Fire a few Presidents and take away their pensions and peks and see how fast things change and what is no longer covered up.

The NCAA can't fire Presidents and such, but here's what they can do. They can only affect scholarships and such.*
Say the penalties will be reviewed when this AD and that President resign and this and that whomever.

* It's like needing a phillips head screw driver when all you have is a hammer. They should treat the scholarships as wood screws.

 

[ausbacker]

We'll have to agree to disagree. To me, important men in the program conspiring to protect their brand has a real link to recruiting power.

It is maintaining competitive advantage BradyManny. Don't let Deus tell you otherwise.

Collegiate athletics is the prime environment to recruit on the basis of perception. The fact that the cover up was enacted on the basis of PR should tell you enough about the motives of the enablers.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I reject this point of view entirely. The Penn State football program WAS run ethically. Players weren't paid to play. They went to class. Recruiting rules were followed, etc etc

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all the incidents that Sandowski committed happen within the confines of his "youth foundation"? Can the crimes of ONE man, and the inaction of perhaps 3 or 4 more condemn an entire program and wipe out the efforts on hundreds of people over the past decade.

Punish the man who committed the crime. Penalize the people who didn't act appropriately. But those were crimes and inactions that were committed by INDIVIDUALS and they should be punished as such

I have often felt that NCAA punishments never fit the crime. If a coach recruits illegally Fire the coach, and keep him out of the NCCA for a period of years. Penalize the player who took the gratuity and not let him matriculate to an NCCA college. Fire the AD and president if "lack of institutional control" issues can be proved. Those are the kind of penalties that would effect REAL change. Why punish a hundred or so kids as staff who are doing the job correctly for the sins of a few renegades.

Penn State isn't blameless in all this, but simply punishing the entire program with a near death penalty is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Punishing the innocent just because the guilty were part of the program isn't justice.

Yes. And while you're probably referring to Sandusky, I'm referring to Paterno. Sandusky being a pedophile isn't what got the PSU football program in this situation. Covering it up and then continuing to enable it *after* the incidents were reported is what led to this.

In that respect, every penalty that's been levied against them is appropriate. Why the hell are we still even debating this? Are there seriously people defending a program that was complicit in repeated incidents of child rape for over a decade?

 

[Joker]

I love this pro and con tempest about what the NCAA should do, can do, shouldn't do, won't do ,will do...all this outrage about "the innocents!!!"...all the blubbering protestations denying any responsibility and crying that the NCAA "has no right!"...and now it's all about "too severe!!!" vs. "not severe enough!!"...

so the sides are drawn...there are those of you who will rationalize every aspect of this incident to minimize Penn St. culpability...but, you all act like this is it....THIS is nothing.

Now, comes the REAL deal....the criminal investigation...the complete ripping apart and display of the innards of the Penn St. football program...and you know what comes with that, don't you....a federal grand jury, prosecutors, stool pigeons deserting the SS Nittany Lion to testify in open court...and continuous unbridled incident by incident disclosure of CHILD RAPING by Sandusky...ON the Penn St campus...WITH a Penn St. address....for what looks like at LEAST decades.

You think this NCAA deal was contentious??? Just wait until the victims are on Dr. Phil and the nation screams for blood as the day by day revelations, buttressed by Penn St employees, ties the entire organizational structure to this hideous coverup. Every single Penn St. apologist who has been lashing out this week will need to find a new planet in another solar system to live out their days.

Now I know there are some of you out there wqho are lawyers and who will post that Sandusky will take a plea deal and the entire thing will be swept under the rug...I'll take that bet...in fact,knowing what Sandusky is, I'm positive he wants to TELL his story in open court. I've seen it more than once with these cretins. Someone earlier posted in this thread "Sandusky was probably molested as a child and he has psychological problems"....kewl story, bro. Let me TELL YOU who the child predator is...he is a cold, calculating sociopathic PREDATOR whose main directive every single day of his existence is the predation of children. Everything else a child molester does in his life is just window dressing. Just as a doctor tends to his patients his whole life, a child molester preys on kids HIS WHOLE LIFE. He does not "get better", he does not have "mental problems"...he is the most insidious, vicious piece of sociopathic human garbage there is.

 

[BradyManny]

If it was a culture issue, then where were all of JoePa's minions, running around trying to cover up his tracks? It was the actions of a few tremendously misguided and shameful men that caused this. There's no booster paying for the police to cover this up, there's not a bunch of football players who knew what was going on and just didn't speak up...this was the administration messing up on a COLOSSAL scale in every way possible.

Don't take my word for it, Vicky Troponey's been on campus and she disagrees with you:

The woman who stood up to Joe Paterno - CNN.com

And Freeh disagrees with you, too.

She said she found solace in the public recognition of Penn State's "culture of reverence for the football program," as the report phrased it, and that it is "ingrained at all levels of the campus community." Freeh found that the culture contributed to the Sandusky scandal.

She agrees with Freeh's suggestion that the university's trustees lead an effort to "vigorously examine and understand" Penn State's culture, why it's so resistant to outside perspectives and why it places such an "excessive focus on athletics."

"It's comforting to know that others can now understand," Triponey said. "It didn't have to happen this way."

....


But she is keenly aware of the campus culture that allowed him to prey on boys for years, virtually unchecked.

"The culture is deep," she said. "The culture is making decisions based on how others will react, not based on what's right and wrong." It focused on the interests of those at "the top of the chain," she added. "Others at the bottom didn't matter."

.....


"I know Paterno has so much power that if he had wanted to get rid of someone, I would have been gone," one janitor told investigators. "Football runs this university."

"If that's the culture at the bottom," Freeh told reporters, "God help the culture at the top."


.....

"It's a cocoon. It's a bubble. That's why those inside the bubble are really struggling. They're afraid; they're embarrassed; they're struggling with what to do," she said.

The link you're missing - and a lot of people are - is that the culture that was perpetuated is what contributed to these men making all the wrong call. Would they have felt so empowered to cover-up these heinous acts in the name of football if not for this culture? Would they have felt they had such authority if not for the reverence they received in the name of football? Would the janitors have remained silent if not for fear of Paterno (see bolded statement above...)?

The problem is bigger. Freeh states it, PSU agrees, I'm sorry that you and other alums haven't looked at the situation objectively yet, but at some point, you will and will come to the same conclusion others have.

 

[Husse]

As an observer:

Cover-up -> Good reputation -> Better recruiting -> Better/More talent(better players)

Fire Sandusky and bring his crimes to light -> Tarnished reputation for a year/couple of years -> Worse recruiting -> Worse/Less talent(worse players)

The second one might have only gone on for 1 year of recruits if the matter had been swiftly resolved. Still, if you compare the two I fail to see how the first one won't give a competitive advantage compared to the second. Regardless if the intention of the cover-up was to give a competitive advantage or not I think the outcome was that they had one.

Also, it's pretty obvious that these sanctions gives PSU a competitive disadvantage, why can not the opposite be said for them before all of this was revealed?

 

[patsfaninpa]

Everything you say is true. And you think that the HEAD OF CAMPUS POLICE would do ANYTHING that Joe Paterno didn't approve of? In order to better understand, you need to revise you perceived organization chart. Paterno had more power and authority than anyone at Penn State, although the President sometimes had more authority, even if he would be very unlikely to exercise such authority in opposition to Paterno.

Paterno did his legal duty so that the pesky paperwork would be acceptable, as he would with any reported violation. All right, I'll say it. Paterno simply didn't care. Apparently, he had more important issues to deal with than what was happening or not happening in the shower.
Juries in civil cases will decide who had legal responsibilities in these matters. Since Pterno is no long with us, his family may be spared the brunt of the suits. If he were alive, the suits would be endless.

Well said. I'm a PSU grad. Joepa should and could have done more. All it would have taken was a phone call. He was a lot more on the ball in 2001 than he was recently. Almost incomprehensible to me was that there was no follow up from Joepa. 3 months, 6months, 1 year later. That's why the sanctions don't bother me as much as it does other PSU fans. PSU alums loved the fact that he went out of his way for some things. Benched players despite being eligible by NCAA standards but struggling in school. As he got older, his grip lessened. SI ran a story about the number of off field incidents. Most were drinking, fighting, smoking some weed. Nothing I would call serious. But, the number of them was startling. Of course, when a football players gets involved in an off-field incident the coach will lobby for him. Let's not pretend that doesn't happen everywhere. Look no further than Florida, Urban Meyer and guys like; AHern, Spikes and others. I do mean everywhere. One of the reasons PSU and Pitt's incidents were uncovered were laws in Pennsylvania. Anyone can get arrest information on charges. Even if dropped later. They count towards stats. Not every state is the same.

ortsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/the_bonus/02/27/cfb.crime/index.html

I wish the penalties were a tad lighter. But, that's not important in the grand scheme. Hell, PSU missed 4 bowls in 5 years from 00 thru 04 anyway. Not that long ago. I went to PSU as a veteran. I was 23. A long time ago. 84-88. Most of my circle couldn't name more than a player or two on the team and didn't even go to the games. The win at all costs atmosphere simply doesn't exist there. Which makes the failure to turn Sandusky in all of the more baffling. To those who don't feel bad for Sandusky, Really?? He set up a f'n charity to give him access to troubled kids. Do you really think he doesn't rape those kids if he wasn't a PSU coach? Say, maybe just a hs football coach The answer would be no. PSU was the tool that he used to attract those kids. One of the kids who testified at his trial is upset that PSU students have to pay for the actions of this man.

Victim No. 4's attorney talks about PSU sanctions | State News - WGAL Home

Now, to the NCAA. I mentioned earlier the sanctions don't bother me. But, for Emmert to get up there and blast PSU's academic program when is comes to football players is preposterous. In the Top 10 in the country year after year after f'n year. He's got to be joking. PSU has been even higher in minority graduation rates for players. The NCAA releases it's horde of thugs and semi-literate upon the NFL each year. 78PCT are broke two years after retiring. Why?? I would start with the fact that not many of them graduate from college. You should worry about that and let the courts deal with scumbags like Sandusky. And, administrators who lie about what they report.

Pro athletes and financial trouble

 

[Steve102]

I love this pro and con tempest about what the NCAA should do, can do, shouldn't do, won't do ,will do...all this outrage about "the innocents!!!"...all the blubbering protestations denying any responsibility and crying that the NCAA "has no right!"...and now it's all about "too severe!!!" vs. "not severe enough!!"...

so the sides are drawn...there are those of you who will rationalize every aspect of this incident to minimize Penn St. culpability...but, you all act like this is it....THIS is nothing.

Now, comes the REAL deal....the criminal investigation...the complete ripping apart and display of the innards of the Penn St. football program...and you know what comes with that, don't you....a federal grand jury, prosecutors, stool pigeons deserting the SS Nittany Lion to testify in open court...and continuous unbridled incident by incident disclosure of CHILD RAPING by Sandusky...ON the Penn St campus...WITH a Penn St. address....for what looks like at LEAST decades.

You think this NCAA deal was contentious??? Just wait until the victims are on Dr. Phil and the nation screams for blood as the day by day revelations, buttressed by Penn St employees, ties the entire organizational structure to this hideous coverup. Every single Penn St. apologist who has been lashing out this week will need to find a new planet in another solar system to live out their days.

Now I know there are some of you out there wqho are lawyers and who will post that Sandusky will take a plea deal and the entire thing will be swept under the rug...I'll take that bet...in fact,knowing what Sandusky is, I'm positive he wants to TELL his story in open court. I've seen it more than once with these cretins. Someone earlier posted in this thread "Sandusky was probably molested as a child and he has psychological problems"....kewl story, bro. Let me TELL YOU who the child predator is...he is a cold, calculating sociopathic PREDATOR whose main directive every single day of his existence is the predation of children. Everything else a child molester does in his life is just window dressing. Just as a doctor tends to his patients his whole life, a child molester preys on kids HIS WHOLE LIFE. He does not "get better", he does not have "mental problems"...he is the most insidious, vicious piece of sociopathic human garbage there is.

I would also wager the investigation of what happened to Ray Gricar is ongoing. IMO, Freeh is just scratching the surface.

What happened to Ray Gricar? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...jerry-sandusky-pennsylvania-da_n_1088950.html

 

[TruthSeeker]

If he were still alive, he might have been indicted and certainly would have been sued for millions.

As far as I know, it has not been shown that Joe Paterno was legally liable since he reported the incident to the AD which was his legal obligation. You could argue that he then illegally used his influence to prevent the AD from reporting this to the authorities; as best as I can tell that's conjecture (but I haven't been following the this in enough detail to know).