If PSU gets the Death Penalty What Happens to O'Brien?

[TyronePoole]

I get the symbolism, but something about vacating the wins from 1998 onwards seems silly in this case. It's not like a recruitment scandal where you could say that the wins were tied to the indiscretions. They won the games they won.

Other than that with my extremely limited knowledge of college FB, it seems like they will need a miracle to be competitive for the next 5 years and in addition to the fine will lose a ton of money. I can't imagine many recruits wanting to go there but then again I hear USC hasn't been hit as hard on the recruiting front as anticipated so who knows.

I still think this is an extremely futile career choice for O'Brien, he could have walked into any number of college HC positions or even one in the NFL after a few years as Pats OC. Maybe he will become a huge legend for rebuilding that program but if a PSU legacy wasn't his ultimate dream I think it's a mistake.

 

[crew1954]

1998-2011 record vacated


...

Make the punishment fit the crime.

The PSU players and coaches won these games fair and square.


What Sandusky was doing in the locker room, what Paterno knew or didn't know, had no effect on these games.

 

[goheels22002]

Well, he's half right: Bowden does have more wins than Joe Pa, but the Seminoles still lost the 2006 Orange Bowl (there's simply no winner in those games that Penn State vacated; the other team isn't retroactively declared the winner).

A quick OT question for all the UMass alumni on this messageboard:

Who has more wins vacated now: Joe Paterno or John Calipari?

:bricks:

 

[BTTA]

I think O'Brien will find a way to bring the program up from these ashes. He's got a chance to be a bigger hero to the PSU community than he ever did if simply succeeding Paterno under the prior circumstances.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

An analogy: your favorite uncle/aunt/grandpa is suddenly arrested and convicted for a heinous crime. Would you be able to cut him/her off completely? Effectively, that's what you're asking of PSU students right now.

I'm not saying it's right, merely that, to quote BB, it is what it is.

You bet I would.

But I get that some wouldn't. Had an incident in my family years ago where it came to light that a close friend of my uncle and aunt's family had been molesting their youngest daughter for years. Some of us had always questioned the odd relationship this never married man had both with her parents and with her. Bought a cottage at the beach our family always went to in the summer and named it after her and then let them stay on vacation for free for years. We older cousins wondered aloud if he wasn't perhaps her father or something... He was treated like an adopted uncle and his constant presence accepted by the whole family.

After her dad passed away while she was in her late teens she finally told her older sisters and eventually their mother (with whom his close friendship had emanated from) what he had done to her for years. They didn't believe her, thought she was acting out and resenting someone who was just trying to be a surrogate dad and he continued to be invited to family gatherings. After all he was from a very well known family in town and active in the K of C...:blahblah:

Until the rest of us finally learned what they knew (from a younger female cousin who had at times been roped into haging out with them and said she was aware of the abuse even as a child) and confronted them and insisted he be cut off or we'd cut all of them off. They didn't entirely cut him off until their by then ill (alcoholic) mother died sometime later, for fear of upsetting her... And even then they attended his funeral when he died because he had been such a friend to her for so many years... Pathetic. Whole family is a mess extending into another generation and it's no wonder why.

I remember the angst when he wasn't invited to my wedding, and eventually to any of the family gatherings held at our house. Boo freakin' hoo.

I have 3 male cousins who were alter boys around the time our parish had it's pedophile priest outed (albeit quietly and reluctantly in those days). Each of them has had issues with relationships and maturity/discipline that you could probably make a case for looking into...but their parents would have died first. One used to have to get taken to the doctor regularly for over a year because he was becoming impacted... The kid who did out him of course was painted as mentally disturbed... I asked their mother several years ago (they are all now married and in their 30's or 40's and one has 2 kids) if she ever asked any of them if they had been abused by that priest. The look on her face was pure denial and she insisted if they had been they'd have told her...yeah, right.

Changing culture is a biatch. That collateral damage is a consequence in the process is what it is.

 

[BTTA]

This scandal absolutely did help PSU win football games. Their entire recruiting schtick has been that they are better than everyone else, that they don't break the rules and when they do they punish themselves. They've been selling this standard of excellence for years. There are dozens of players, if not hundreds, who would not have played there if they knew that the school allowed Sandusky to do what he was doing in the name of protecting the football program.

 

[Steve102]

Make the punishment fit the crime.

The PSU players and coaches won these games fair and square.

What Sandusky was doing in the locker room, what Paterno knew or didn't know, had no effect on these games.

IMO, the punishment does. The report shows Paterno knew about Sandusky and his crimes in 1998. The vacating of games from 1998 forward posthumously penalizes Paterno the only way they can, removing him from the record book, at least from 1998 forward. The message and the punishment, again IMHO, is specifically directed at Paterno.

The penalty takes away the credit for the wins from Paterno. The players who played the games still have the memories. Fans still have the memories of the games. It's strictly a record book penalty, and it's the only way to punish Paterno for covering up the mess and/or enabling the monster Sandusky to continue to prey on kids.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

The only thing sad about this whole Penn State scandal besides the young victims is the fact that Paterno didn't live long enough to see his demise from fans and a nation who once thought highly of him.

I would have loved to see the mental agony he would have gone through watching all he accomplished for the past 12 years gone to waste for turning his head on child molestation over the sanctity of preserving the Nittany Lions football reputation.

 

[crew1954]

IMO, the punishment does. The report shows Paterno knew about Sandusky and his crimes in 1998. The vacating of games from 1998 forward posthumously penalizes Paterno the only way they can, removing him from the record book, at least from 1998 forward. The message and the punishment, again IMHO, is specifically directed at Paterno.

The penalty takes away the credit for the wins from Paterno. The players who played the games still have the memories. Fans still have the memories of the games. It's strictly a record book penalty, and it's the only way to punish Paterno for covering up the mess and/or enabling the monster Sandusky to continue to prey on kids.

They could take Paterno out of the record books while not punishing 18-23 year old kids.

Man I hated it when our (my) Little League State championship was taken away because my mom had given a baptismal certificate instead of a birth certificate.

We played and won all the games, only to be told an hour before the NE regionals that we had to forfeit because of some piece of paper.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I get the symbolism, but something about vacating the wins from 1998 onwards seems silly in this case. It's not like a recruitment scandal where you could say that the wins were tied to the indiscretions. They won the games they won.

Other than that with my extremely limited knowledge of college FB, it seems like they will need a miracle to be competitive for the next 5 years and in addition to the fine will lose a ton of money. I can't imagine many recruits wanting to go there but then again I hear USC hasn't been hit as hard on the recruiting front as anticipated so who knows.

I still think this is an extremely futile career choice for O'Brien, he could have walked into any number of college HC positions or even one in the NFL after a few years as Pats OC. Maybe he will become a huge legend for rebuilding that program but if a PSU legacy wasn't his ultimate dream I think it's a mistake.

PR move, IMO. The NCAA doesn't want Joe Paterno to be the winningest--or even one of the winningest--coaches in history. Vacating those wins drops him down to 12th, where he becomes more of a historical footnote.

 

[Steve102]

They could take Paterno out of the record books while not punishing 18-23 year old kids.

Man I hated it when our (my) Little League State championship was taken away because my mom had given a baptismal certificate instead of a birth certificate.

We played and won all the games, only to be told an hour before the NE regionals that we had to forfeit because of some piece of paper.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think it's the same. We're not talking about banning them from a championship game this weekend. We're talking about taking Paterno off the record books, from the moment he knew about the crimes Sandusky was committing.

While we're at it, the little league rules about paperwork, right or wrong, and a group of 12 yr olds level of disappointment in no way compares to the crimes committed by The Monster or the coverup in the name of football by Paterno and his associates. The players who played from 1998 to now still have the memories of games played, regardless of what the record book says.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Are you really shocked that O$U fans of all people are celebrating this?

Given all the crap we got from Penn St fans and the self righteous indignation following tat gate..yeah.
F Penn State.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

And whoever approved of BoB's contract with Penn State is an idiot.

It has no out clause. If he decided to jump ship, Bill has to pay the rest of his contract back to Penn State even though he never got that money.

 

[goheels22002]

PR move, IMO. The NCAA doesn't want Joe Paterno to be the winningest--or even one of the winningest--coaches in history. Vacating those wins drops him down to 12th, where he becomes more of a historical footnote.

Gotta hand it to those Wikipedia nerds - they do not waste a minute throwing losers like Joe Pa into the historical dust bin. Sportswriters who look up the football coach with most wins get this:

List of college football coaches with 200 wins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Division One football you now get 1-5 being Eddie Robinson, Bobby Bowden, Bear Bryant, Pop Warner and Amos Alonzo Stagg. Joe Paterno drops below that immortal Ken Sparks and just ahead of Ron Schipper (who? - exactly!)

 

[UK_Pat37]

I expected the sanctions to be hard but I'm a little saddened by the decision of the NCAA to strip the program and Paterno of his wins.

In what effing way did this give him a competitive advantage? It didn't...let's face it. The NCAA are, always have been, and always will be, a joke. They redefined that word themselves today. How they can justify stripping the man of his wins and not only him, but the players and staff who worked so hard to get those Ws up on the board along with it.

What happened in no way resulted in a competitive edge like incentives for recruits would.

I'm glad he death penalty wasn't brought n but let's face it, this was the death penalty in all but name. The fine I can see eye to eye with, and maybe even the ban on bowl games just about, but the scholarships and the stripping of wins is down right pathetic.

This got turned into way more than it was...by that I mean the way people madei so much about football and the entire program. This isn't as much about football as some like to say it is. You're punishing a whole program who knew nothing about what was going on bar four pencil pushers named in the Freeh report who sought to cover it up. One of them is dead, the others fired and hopefully charges will be brought to them and their licenses within the NCAA revoked..but no punishment was needed on the program.

The only reason it was needed was because of the public out cry at what happened and the irrational demands for people wo had nothing to do with this to pay. I'd like to think I would do the right thing if I had been in Paterno's shoes, but I refuse to join the self-righteous do-gooders who do more than just condemn what was a shameful act by demanding that people pay who shouldn't be paying. Let's face it, we're all human and if someone is faced with an accusation against a very good friend which could tarnish the reputation of a program (or anything else for that matter) you have built up and made great, all sorts of both rational and irrational thoughts can go through a man's head...and I can speak for a lot of people when I say that they might not make the right choice either. Take any moral example when thinking about it.

Joe Paterno is, in my eyes, still the winningest coach in NCAA history and screw what anyone else says. Coming from a Michigan fan.

 

[patfanken]

This scandal absolutely did help PSU win football games. Their entire recruiting schtick has been that they are better than everyone else, that they don't break the rules and when they do they punish themselves. They've been selling this standard of excellence for years. There are dozens of players, if not hundreds, who would not have played there if they knew that the school allowed Sandusky to do what he was doing in the name of protecting the football program.

I reject this point of view entirely. The Penn State football program WAS run ethically. Players weren't paid to play. They went to class. Recruiting rules were followed, etc etc

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't all the incidents that Sandowski committed happen within the confines of his "youth foundation"? Can the crimes of ONE man, and the inaction of perhaps 3 or 4 more condemn an entire program and wipe out the efforts on hundreds of people over the past decade.

Punish the man who committed the crime. Penalize the people who didn't act appropriately. But those were crimes and inactions that were committed by INDIVIDUALS and they should be punished as such

I have often felt that NCAA punishments never fit the crime. If a coach recruits illegally Fire the coach, and keep him out of the NCCA for a period of years. Penalize the player who took the gratuity and not let him matriculate to an NCCA college. Fire the AD and president if "lack of institutional control" issues can be proved. Those are the kind of penalties that would effect REAL change. Why punish a hundred or so kids as staff who are doing the job correctly for the sins of a few renegades.

Penn State isn't blameless in all this, but simply punishing the entire program with a near death penalty is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Punishing the innocent just because the guilty were part of the program isn't justice.

 

[crew1954]

The players who played from 1998 to now still have the memories of games played, regardless of what the record book says.

I was not comparing what LL did to me with what Paterno/Sandusky did to the kids. I was comparing what LL did to me to what the NCAA is doing to the PSU kids. Why the collective punishment?

 

[BradyManny]

Joe Paterno is, in my eyes, still the winningest coach in NCAA history and screw what anyone else says. Coming from a Michigan fan.

I think people are making a huge mistake by separating the football and the serial child-rape that was occurring. To try and make them two distinct issues is wrong. It'd be like saying the Catholic Church abuse scandal had nothing to do with religion.

Sandusky had access to these children because of the football and the lies and coverup were perpetuated because of the football.

Everything that occurred happened because of the culture at Penn State - and that culture is all about football.

There is no way to break that link.

A few important men decided that winning football games was more important than preventing children from being serially sodomized. How anyone can take issue with the NCAA reminding people that those priorities are out of whack, that's beyond me.

Stripping Paterno of his wins sends a message worth sending, and sets a precedence worth setting.

 

[Steve102]

I expected the sanctions to be hard but I'm a little saddened by the decision of the NCAA to strip the program and Paterno of his wins.

In what effing way did this give him a competitive advantage? It didn't...let's face it. The NCAA are, always have been, and always will be, a joke. They redefined that word themselves today. How they can justify stripping the man of his wins and not only him, but the players and staff who worked so hard to get those Ws up on the board along with it.

What happened in no way resulted in a competitive edge like incentives for recruits would.

I'm glad he death penalty wasn't brought n but let's face it, this was the death penalty in all but name. The fine I can see eye to eye with, and maybe even the ban on bowl games just about, but the scholarships and the stripping of wins is down right pathetic.

This got turned into way more than it was...by that I mean the way people madei so much about football and the entire program. This isn't as much about football as some like to say it is. You're punishing a whole program who knew nothing about what was going on bar four pencil pushers named in the Freeh report who sought to cover it up. One of them is dead, the others fired and hopefully charges will be brought to them and their licenses within the NCAA revoked..but no punishment was needed on the program.

The only reason it was needed was because of the public out cry at what happened and the irrational demands for people wo had nothing to do with this to pay. I'd like to think I would do the right thing if I had been in Paterno's shoes, but I refuse to join the self-righteous do-gooders who do more than just condemn what was a shameful act by demanding that people pay who shouldn't be paying. Let's face it, we're all human and if someone is faced with an accusation against a very good friend which could tarnish the reputation of a program (or anything else for that matter) you have built up and made great, all sorts of both rational and irrational thoughts can go through a man's head...and I can speak for a lot of people when I say that they might not make the right choice either. Take any moral example when thinking about it.

Joe Paterno is, in my eyes, still the winningest coach in NCAA history and screw what anyone else says. Coming from a Michigan fan.

What? You don't see a competitive advantage? You honestly believe if this had come to surface in 1998 or 2001 that recruits would have still all gone to PSU? This was a cover-up of Nixonian standards, and it was all done in the name of football and keeping up appearances, while keeping the PSU football machine making money, while allowing Paterno his record for all-time wins.

As far as turning this into way more than it was...again, what? The Monster was known to be molesting children in 1998, and Paterno and his staff covered it up, and then again in 2001. Any other work he's done is trumped by this mistake. He single-handedly could have stopped it in 1998. It would have been a blip on the radar if he had done the right thing. Instead, in the name of football, he allowed The Monster to prey on AT RISK KIDS!! The very kids who needed help! Paterno swept it under the rug and hushed it up, all in the name of Penn State football. Football is bigger than these kids, his actions said. It's horrific that this enabler allowed it, and it's crazy to me that people are still defending Paterno.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

I was not comparing what LL did to me with what Paterno/Sandusky did to the kids. I was comparing what LL did to me to what the NCAA is doing to the PSU kids. Why the collective punishment?

The people who covered up the scandal were part of an organization. When an organization allows enough people in key positions to let this kind of thing happen, then the organization has failed. It sucks that people who had nothing to do with this had negative consqeuences, but they are part of an organization that effed up big time.

When you become part of an oganization, you have to accept the consequences of being part of that organization. At the point at which Paterno was fired, it was after years of him being unable to speak in an intelligable way..... To even the most deranged, this organization was addicted to hero worship. If you ***** about he consequences, your saying a lot about yourself.