Should Pats draft a WR?

[patsinthesnow]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

How is that at all relevant?

Regardless, the need at WR is still present and very real.

Depends what you mean by "need".(I liked your comment btw, I see the need for a young WR) The need to develop a WR is there, but even if the pats didn't have the best TE duo ever, the WR core is still very good.

Welker ( a top 10 WR), Lloyd (a top 15 WR), Branch (a system WR that makes a good #3), and then you have 3-4 stiffs to compete for the WR #4 spot.

I'd like a WR drafted in 2012, but if one isn't it won't impact the 2012 season at all really.

 

[ATippett56]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

The New England Patriots failure to develop a middle-deep WR is one of the reason why the New England Patriots offense has been shut down by good teams in recent years.

Sheer blasphemy!

2010 New England Patriots offense: 518 points scored (NFL Rank 1st)
2011 New England Patriots offense: 513 points scored (NFL Rank 3rd)

The New England Patriots are the only AFC team to score over 500 points in the last two consecutive seasons.

Eugene Wilson was drafted as a cornerback, not a safety. Thus, the answer to my question here is 0 (Sanders was certainly serviceable, however).

Eugene Wilson played safety so you are moving the goal posts in you own argument.

This is one of the more ridiculous comments ever made on this site, given that you want to spend picks on the DE/OLB spots, and that the Patriots have yet to draft a single top tier DE/OLB/S outside of the first round.

Eugene Wilson played safety for the New England Patriots and not cornerback.

Since the New England Patriots have two first round draft picks in the 2012 NFL Draft that precludes the New England Patriots organization to select a potential 5 technique defensive lineman (for instance Ty Warren circa 2003) only because you say so.

It's not my game, it's yours. You're the one who decided to play the "since..." game after I pointed out Branch as a WR developed under BB. You're just pissed because you've got no point to your argument. Outside of the first round, the team has developed as many top level DE/OLB/S prospects since 2002 as they have top level WRs.

Since 2002, how many wide receivers directly from the collegiate ranks have the New England Patriots developed?

 

[JackBauer]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Depends what you mean by "need".(I liked your comment btw, I see the need for a young WR) The need to develop a WR is there, but even if the pats didn't have the best TE duo ever, the WR core is still very good.

Welker ( a top 10 WR), Lloyd (a top 15 WR), Branch (a system WR that makes a good #3), and then you have 3-4 stiffs to compete for the WR #4 spot.

I'd like a WR drafted in 2012, but if one isn't it won't impact the 2012 season at all really.

Yes, but if Lloyd goes down all of a sudden you've got some piss poor starting wideouts.

From my perspective, this makes as much sense as a depth move as anything else. Branch simply isn't a guy you can rely on full-time outside the numbers at this point.

 

[JackBauer]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Since 2002, how many wide receivers directly from the collegiate ranks have the New England Patriots developed?

As I've already noted, this is an appeal to history and is, logically, about as poor an argument as you could possibly make.

 

[JackBauer]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Sheer blasphemy!

2010 New England Patriots offense: 518 points scored (NFL Rank 1st)
2011 New England Patriots offense: 513 points scored (NFL Rank 3rd)

The New England Patriots are the only AFC team to score over 500 points in the last two consecutive seasons.

Oh, wait, no, this could possibly be worse.

 

[ATippett56]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Tate started 1 of 2 games his rookie season and 10 of 16 games his second season

Which is all the more reason not to have traded a 2012 fifth round draft pick for Chad Ochostinko and cut Brandon Tate prior to the 2011 NFL Season, but in addition cut wide receiver Taylor Price in lieu of Chad Ochostinko during the 2011 NFL Season.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Depends what you mean by "need".(I liked your comment btw, I see the need for a young WR) The need to develop a WR is there, but even if the pats didn't have the best TE duo ever, the WR core is still very good.

Welker ( a top 10 WR), Lloyd (a top 15 WR), Branch (a system WR that makes a good #3), and then you have 3-4 stiffs to compete for the WR #4 spot.

I'd like a WR drafted in 2012, but if one isn't it won't impact the 2012 season at all really.

I like Lloyd. I was one of the bigger "sign Lloyd" guys on this site, because he shoud be a great fit for this Patriots team. That being said, Lloyd is not a top 15 WR, IMO.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Yes, but if Lloyd goes down all of a sudden you've got some piss poor starting wideouts.

From my perspective, this makes as much sense as a depth move as anything else. Branch simply isn't a guy you can rely on full-time outside the numbers at this point.

Good point, Branch can't handle starting reps, he gets gased during games.
( I do think he can be effective 1 on 1 in limited reps)
A 2nd round WR could emerge as high as the #3 WR and insurance if Lloyd goes down. It's a strange need, but it is one, a "depth need". I used to be a big supporter of Hill in round 1, but I'd rather it be met in late round 2 or 3 now.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Which is all the more reason not to have traded a 2012 fifth round draft pick for Chad Ochostinko and cut Brandon Tate prior to the 2011 NFL Season, but in addition cut wide receiver Taylor Price in lieu of Chad Ochostinko during the 2011 NFL Season.

No, it's not. Tate didn't work out in New England, and he did nothing as a WR in Cincinnatti. What he represented in my post was the reason why you shouldn't be pimping Cunningham.

Seriously, your arguments are freakin' terrible.

 

[JackBauer]

Damnit! I don't recall starting a thread called "Should Pats draft a WR?"

:bricks:

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Sheer blasphemy!

2010 New England Patriots offense: 518 points scored (NFL Rank 1st)
2011 New England Patriots offense: 513 points scored (NFL Rank 3rd)

The New England Patriots are the only AFC team to score over 500 points in the last two consecutive seasons.

Why are you tossing out straw men?

Eugene Wilson played safety so you are moving the goal posts in you own argument.

Eugene Wilson played safety for the New England Patriots and not cornerback.

Wilson was drafted as a cornerback. He was moved to safety when the safety that the Patriots had originally put in as the starter stunk out the joint. You might wish to take note of what the Patriots drafting history at the safety position had been up to that point, as it is what led to Wilson having to move to that position.

Since the New England Patriots have two first round draft picks in the 2012 NFL Draft that precludes the New England Patriots organization to select a potential 5 technique defensive lineman (for instance Ty Warren circa 2003) only because you say so.

Once again, your argument sucks. I don't have a problem with the Patriots drafting a DL/OLB with one of their first round picks. I've been calling for it for multiple years, as a matter of fact. You, however, have a problem with logic and reasoning.

Since 2002, how many wide receivers directly from the collegiate ranks have the New England Patriots developed?

We're not going to go 'round and 'round with this. Your argument has been shredded. That's not a surprise, because the argument sucked.

 

[JackBauer]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

That being said, Lloyd is not a top 15 WR, IMO.

I'm inclined to agree. I think he could easily be one -- e.g. 2010 -- but the consistency isn't there to warrant calling him top 15.

 

[patsinthesnow]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Ha Deus, your response disappeared. Regarding LLoyd:

Lloyd is tough to rank, a bunch of mediocre seasons, than a season where he was a stud, than a season where he put up 70 catches 966 yards 5 TDs with the Broncos/Rams. (19th and 20th respectively)

Maybe not top 15 but I don't think I'd put him past 20.

 

[ATippett56]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

No, it's not. Tate didn't work out in New England, and he did nothing as a WR in Cincinnatti.

Brandon Tate essentially was allowed one full season to participate with the New England Patriots offense, since he was recovering from a torn ACL his rookie season.

Brandon Tate did not attend training camp or preseason with the Cincinnati Bengals; you expect a wide receiver to learn the playbook overnight, let alone develop a rapport with a quarterback.

In 2010, Brandon Tate scored more touchdowns on kickoff returns than Chad Ochostinko did as a wide receiver in 2011 for the New England Patriots.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Brandon Tate essentially was allowed one full season to participate with the New England Patriots offense, since he was recovering from a torn ACL his rookie season.

Brandon Tate did not attend training camp or preseason with the Cincinnati Bengals; you expect a wide receiver to learn the playbook overnight, let alone develop a rapport with a quarterback.

In 2010, Brandon Tate scored more touchdowns on kickoff returns than Chad Ochostinko did as a wide receiver in 2011 for the New England Patriots.

Again, tossing out straw men and red herrings aren't going to change the points being made. Brandon Tate didn't make it. The team needs a WR, DT, DL, OLB and S. It could use another C/G, RB and CB. This year's safety crop seems to suck, meaning it's not likely that a worthwhile safety will be around when the Patriots draft in the first, and there's not likely to be any safeties worthwhile when they are picking in the second. That means that the team could use those 4 1st and 2nd round picks to draft, in no particular order,

WR
DL
OLB
DT

and would have satisfactorily addressed the need/value metric at most of the 'need' positions, while still leaving 3rd and 4th round picks for either taking players or maneuvering for more/future picks.

 

[patfanken]

Man what a waste of time plowing through 5 pages of BS from a few guys in love with their own "voices". Now back to the original premise of the thread. SHOULD the Pats draft a WR? The answer is decisively NO!

I don't doubt that the Pats need to eventually add some young WRs down the road, but they DO not need to THIS season. As it is they are going to have to cut at least 2 experienced and proven WRs. If you draft a WR you'd have to make that number 3, and he'd likely be the #5 WR and have little impact on this season. Add that to the fact there isn't anyone in the 2nd or 3rd rounds that would be any better THIS season than what we already have. The only WR I can see that makes any sense would be Broyles, who you could take with our "red 6th pick and "red shirt" for a season.

THIS is the season to either trade up or trade out to 2013. THIS is the season to add defensive bodies. Add 2 guys to the front 7 and 2 guys to the back end, then trade the last 2 picks into 2013 and then call it a day.

So WRs in THIS draft - They are the most numerous commodity the NFL has to offer. Every year there are a dozen rated in the first 2 rounds of the draft and a dozen more proven FAs

A couple of miscellaneous points

1. During the BB era the 2 most successful rookie WRs were Branch and Edelman - Branch had around 440 yds his rookie year, while Edelman had around 370, though he saw a lot fewer snaps on the field BTW - if you add Edelman's playoff game, they are about the same.

2. In an offense where the 2 TEs get over 2000 yds in receptions and 24 TDs, the importance of your #3 and #4 WRs is greatly lessened compared to other offenses

3. How important to the offense is the #3WR? Can anyone name the #3 WR for the Pats in 2001 and how many catches he had? Yeah I know its a totally different offense, but also onw where the TE's had an minimal impact. The point is that unless the WRs are a key element in your offense the #3 guy isn't a critical factor. In 2007 he was. Not so much in 2001 and 2011

BTW- the guys name was Charles Johnson hand he had 11 catches for 111 yds.

 

[JackBauer]

SHOULD the Pats draft a WR? The answer is decisively NO!

Weren't you the one trying to argue that rookie pass rushers rarely make an impact their first year? That being the case, and since we "decisively" don't need a wide receiver, what do you suggest we draft?

As it is they are going to have to cut at least 2 experienced and proven WRs.

Please name these "experienced and proven" wide receivers.

If you draft a WR you'd have to make that number 3, and he'd likely be the #5 WR and have little impact on this season.

If, as you said, you'd read the thread, you'd know that's precisely the goal.

Add that to the fact there isn't anyone in the 2nd or 3rd rounds that would be any better THIS season than what we already have.

There is no possible way you can make this claim.

THIS is the season to either trade up or trade out to 2013. THIS is the season to add defensive bodies. Add 2 guys to the front 7 and 2 guys to the back end, then trade the last 2 picks into 2013 and then call it a day.

Huh. No kidding. I guess that's why most of us who are advocating for a receiver are also in favor of allocating the rest of the draft picks to the defensive side.

 

[everlong]

No. They should draft three with an eye towards the future given that they only hit on about one of three at that position. I'm sure after the annual trade-down-a-poolza they'll have a bunch of middle round picks. A WR might not see the field much this year but given the age of Branch, Stallworth, Ocho and Welker and the IR-Ready Gonzalez they need players in the pipeline. If they took a combination of Marvin Jones, Joe Adams, Jarius Wright, Ty Hilton and Junior Hemmingway all in rounds 4-6 it's a low risk way to do it and hopefully hit on at least one by throwing sh!t up against the wall and hoping something sticks.

 

[ATippett56]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

Again, tossing out straw men and red herrings aren't going to change the points being made.

The New England Patriots had two developmental wide receivers on the roster prior to the commencement of the 2011 NFL Season.

Brandon Tate didn't make it.

The New England Patriots cut the wrong wide receiver prior to the 2011 NFL Season.

The team needs a WR, DT, DL, OLB and S.

The New England Patriots could draft a wide receiver in the fourth round in the 2012 NFL Draft with the sole purpose of stashing the wide receiver on injured reserve for the 2013 NFL Season.

It could use another C/G, RB and B.

Unless Brian Waters retires, the New England Patriots do not need another interior offensive lineman:

Dan Koppen
Dan Connelly
Ryan Wendell
Nick McDonald
Logan Mankins
Brian Waters
Robert Gallery
Donald Thomas

This year's safety crop seems to suck, meaning it's not likely that a worthwhile safety will be around when the Patriots draft in the first, and there's not likely to be any safeties worthwhile when they are picking in the second. That means that the team could use those 4 1st and 2nd round picks to draft, in no particular order,

WR
DL
OLB
DT

and would have satisfactorily addressed the need/value metric at most of the 'need' positions, while still leaving 3rd and 4th round picks for either taking players or maneuvering for more/future picks.

First, the perception of a weak safety draft class does not preclude the New England Patriots from finding a "diamond in the rough".

Second, the New England Patriots need a cornerback alot more than a developmental wide receiver for the 2012 NFL Season.

 

[pork3]

Re: Center Dan Koppen re-signed for 2 years

We're not going to go 'round and 'round with this. Your argument has been shredded. That's not a surprise, because the argument sucked.

I'll give you credit for one thing, you certainly don't hold back your feelings as I've seen that barb from you on multiple occasions. Keep up the fight Deus, makes for an interesting read, even when you're mistaken.

-Jamman