Schefter: Ochocinco will stay with Patriots

[RIpats88]

That would be guys like me. Older WRs get to a point where they simply can't seperate from defenders. They also don't like working the middle of the field... where it appears Brady does most his dissecting of opponents' defenses. I think it's very important to have a guy with speed on the outside. Branch and Chad aren't guys on the upside of their careers. Good luck to them both. I think it's time for another weapon. I guess we'll see what happens.

we did get another Weapon...Brandon Lloyd. I think he projects to be the #2 wide receiver.

I think chad still has skills to be a good WR in the nfl...his problem was more mental than physically not getting open

 

[Bonzo]

I have to believe that *one* of Ochocinco, Stallworth, and Gonzalez (my personal dark horse) will emerge as a legitimate outside threat opposite Brandon Lloyd by the end of TC. Against the spread, opposing defenses will need to worry about Gronk, Welker, Lloyd, and Hernandez (in roughly that order) before they can even start to think about defending the #3 WR. This 2012 O has the potential to be sick, sick, sick!

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I see it this way. Ocho's restructure benefits the Pats now because it lowers his present cap hit giving the Pats a touch more room during FA. Is that correct?

 

[mgteich]

I agree

STARTERS
2011; Welker and Branch
2012: Welker and Lloyd
conclusion: major plus for 2012

BACKUPS
2011: Ochocinco, Underwood
2012: Ochocinco, Underwood
Now this would be a minor improvement since both will have a full off-season.
However, we also can choose from Branch, Stallworth and Gonzalez.

BOTTOM LINE
One way to view this is that Lloyd replaced Branch as the #2, improving the team. The question is whether we can improve of Ochocinco and Underwood as our backups. The answer has to be yes, whether Ochocinco stays or not.

we did get another Weapon...Brandon Lloyd. I think he projects to be the #2 wide receiver.

I think chad still has skills to be a good WR in the nfl...his problem was more mental than physically not getting open

 

[Rob0729]

I see it this way. Ocho's restructure benefits the Pats now because it lowers his present cap hit giving the Pats a touch more room during FA. Is that correct?

Yes, they basically get $2 million in more cap room. It also makes it less attractive to cut him because now they only get $480k savings in cutting him rather than about $1.5 million before the restructure.

 

[ATippett56]

BACKUPS
2012: Ochocinco, Underwood
Now this would be a minor improvement since both will have a full off-season.
However, we also can choose from Branch, Stallworth and Gonzalez.

BOTTOM LINE
One way to view this is that Lloyd replaced Branch as the #2, improving the team. The question is whether we can improve of Ochocinco and Underwood as our backups. The answer has to be yes, whether Ochocinco stays or not.

I don't see how, at the age of 34, that Ochocinco is an improvement to Deion Branch as a backup.

 

[captain stone]

All signs point to The Patriots playing alot of empty backfield next year with 3 WRs and 2 TEs, Hernandez can show as a TE or WR and then shift into RB, making him a runner against a nickle or dime defense.

The Patriots can go with a heavy look with 3 TEs, 1 RB and a WR, or they can go for a Light look with 5 wide with the possibility to shift, with the skill depth on this team, the possibilities are endless and they can give you looks that no other team can because of the versatility of Hernandez.

I really like it, Josh Mcdaniels is a great offensive coach and im pretty excited to see what he can do to improve our offense from last year.

I'd rather that Giselle's husband just throw to the guy who's open, via play-action.

 

[captain stone]

I agree

STARTERS
2011; Welker and Branch
2012: Welker and Lloyd
conclusion: major plus for 2012

BACKUPS
2011: Ochocinco, Underwood
2012: Ochocinco, Underwood
Now this would be a minor improvement since both will have a full off-season.
However, we also can choose from Branch, Stallworth and Gonzalez.

BOTTOM LINE
One way to view this is that Lloyd replaced Branch as the #2, improving the team. The question is whether we can improve of Ochocinco and Underwood as our backups. The answer has to be yes, whether Ochocinco stays or not.

Kid 'n Play Underwood is merely TC fodder, to be used as a tackling dummy for our DBs.

 

[ATippett56]

Kid 'n Play Underwood is merely TC fodder, to be used as a tackling dummy for our DBs.

If Underwood is on the 53 man roster in September 2012, the New England Patriots will have serious depth issues at wide receiver.

 

[mgteich]

I didn't say that. I will try again.
======================
COMPARISON NOT COUNTING ON BRANCH
2011 #1 Welker 2012 #1 Welker wash
2011 #2 Branch 2012 #2 Lloyd major improvement
2011 #3 Ochocinco 2012 #3 Ochocinco minor plus since he will have a full offseason
2012 #3 Underwood 2012 #4 Underwood minor plus since he will have a full offseason

This was a major improvement over 2011 even before all the free agent signings in addition to Lloyd. Presumably, we would have draft a wide receiver for the future.
=====================
THE ACTUAL SITUATION IS MUCH BETTER
2011 backups: Ochocinco and Underwood.

Obviously, we expect to do better having signed Branch, Stallworth, and Gonzales.

And, of course, we might also draft a receiver. They have a strong belief that points scored by wide receivers that we drafted count for more. It seems clear that one strategy is to bring several receivers and have them battle it our for roster spots. Another is to draft a receiver who might develop in year 2 or 3, and hoping to strike gold sometimes with significant Year 1 production. The draftee approach uses a critical roster spot for a developmental wide receiver. I'd rather carry the extra veteran.

I don't see how, at the age of 34, that Ochocinco is an improvement to Deion Branch as a backup.

 

[Ring 6]

I'd rather that Giselle's husband just throw to the guy who's open, via play-action.

Play action isn't going to fool anyone when you have Gronk, Welker, Lloyd and Hernandez with Brady at QB.
Play action that isn't respected by the D is a great way to get a QB killed.
Everything has its place, and everything is less effective when overused.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Yes, they basically get $2 million in more cap room. It also makes it less attractive to cut him because now they only get $480k savings in cutting him rather than about $1.5 million before the restructure.

If they cut him at the end of camp they still save the remainder of his salary - $1M. His dead cap is essentially $1.5M per for 2012-2013 whether he plays this year or not. The only difference between cutting him now, cutting his salary by 2/3rds, or cutting him at the end of camp would be his $100K workout bonus if he in fact earns it and the possibility of his being injured in OTA's and them being on the hook for his 2012 salary via IR or injury settlement. Vs. of course the possibility he finally can perform within the system at a value level commensurate with his salary/cap hit. If he remains he will have a $2.6M cap hit. Branch, Stallworth, Gonzalez or a a PS player or rookie would have a far lesser cap hit than that. And probably a lesser cash hit too (although we haven't heard what Branch's 1 year salary is yet).

 

[ATippett56]

I didn't say that. I will try again.
======================
COMPARISON NOT COUNTING ON BRANCH
2011 #1 Welker 2012 #1 Welker wash
2011 #2 Branch 2012 #2 Lloyd major improvement
2011 #3 Ochocinco 2012 #3 Ochocinco minor plus since he will have a full offseason
2012 #3 Underwood 2012 #4 Underwood minor plus since he will have a full offseason

This was a major improvement over 2011 even before all the free agent signings in addition to Lloyd. Presumably, we would have draft a wide receiver for the future.
=====================
THE ACTUAL SITUATION IS MUCH BETTER
2011 backups: Ochocinco and Underwood.

Obviously, we expect to do better having signed Branch, Stallworth, and Gonzales.

And, of course, we might also draft a receiver. They have a strong belief that points scored by wide receivers that we drafted count for more. It seems clear that one strategy is to bring several receivers and have them battle it our for roster spots. Another is to draft a receiver who might develop in year 2 or 3, and hoping to strike gold sometimes with significant Year 1 production. The draftee approach uses a critical roster spot for a developmental wide receiver. I'd rather carry the extra veteran.

If those are the alternatives, I would rather choose the following route:

2012 New England Patriots Wide Receivers

Brandon Lloyd
Wes Welker
Deion Branch
3rd Round, #94 Overall - Marvin Jones, WR California
Julian Edelman
Matt Slater (Wide Receiver/Special Teams)

I'm not banking on Anthony Gonzalez making a miraculous comeback.

 

[Ring 6]

If those are the alternatives, I would rather choose the following route:

2012 New England Patriots Wide Receivers

Brandon Lloyd
Wes Welker
Deion Branch
3rd Round, #94 Overall - Marvin Jones, WR California
Julian Edelman
Matt Slater (Wide Receiver/Special Teams)

I'm not banking on Anthony Gonzalez making a miraculous comeback.

I think Gonzalez might be a big surprise. Of course that is on the assumption his injuries have been bad luck, and he isn't a guy who sits with minor issues.

 

[Bonzo]

Play action isn't going to fool anyone when you have Gronk, Welker, Lloyd and Hernandez with Brady at QB.
Play action that isn't respected by the D is a great way to get a QB killed.
Everything has its place, and everything is less effective when overused.

I think Josh will be able to make defenses respect the pass out of the 3TE "heavy" set -- there will still be 4 viable, dangerous pass-catching options on the field -- and I think, by motioning Hernandez into the backfield, he'll make them respect the run out of even the 3WR/2TE "empty" set. Plus there's all the stuff in between (2WR/2TE/1RB, etc.) that worked so well last season. Regardless of whatever looks the Pats O give opposing D's, they should (with sufficient discipline) be able to remain at least somewhat balanced, and there will be ample opportunity for surprise.

 

[ATippett56]

I think Gonzalez might be a big surprise. Of course that is on the assumption his injuries have been bad luck, and he isn't a guy who sits with minor issues.

Anthony Gonzalez was awesome at Ohio State, however lack of productivity in the last three NFL seasons does not warrant optimism. Low risk, potential high reward acquisition.

 

[Ring 6]

I think Josh will be able to make defenses respect the pass out of the 3TE "heavy" set -- there will still be 4 viable, dangerous pass-catching options on the field -- and I think, by motioning Hernandez into the backfield, he'll make them respect the run out of even the empty set. Plus there's all the stuff in between (2WR/2TE, etc.) that worked so well last season. Regardless of whatever looks the Pats O give opposing D's, they should (with sufficient discipline) be able to remain at least somewhat balanced, and there will be ample opportunity for surprise.

My point is that a team who has more receiving weapons that last year, when defensive coaches were quoted as saying they hoped they could get them to run, isn't going to have much of an advantage with play action. Play action works against defenses that are trying to take out your running game. When they are almost solely worried about the pass, play action just slows down the development of the play and gives a disadvantage to your OL, who must sell run before pass blocking against DL that only have pass rushing on their mind.
Certainly we have the weapons to be balanced, but no one is going to be fooled much by play action from this offense.

 

[mgteich]

So you would prefer to use a 3rd round draft choice. I would prefer whoever wins the battle between Stallworth, Gonzalez and Ochocinco.

If those are the alternatives, I would rather choose the following route:

2012 New England Patriots Wide Receivers

Brandon Lloyd
Wes Welker
Deion Branch
3rd Round, #94 Overall - Marvin Jones, WR California
Julian Edelman
Matt Slater (Wide Receiver/Special Teams)

I'm not banking on Anthony Gonzalez making a miraculous comeback.

 

[Ring 6]

Anthony Gonzalez was awesome at Ohio State, however lack of productivity in the last three NFL seasons does not warrant optimism. Low risk, potential high reward acquisition.

His skill set is also a perfect fit in our system. Again, it comes down to health. If he is healthy he will make the team and be prodctive, with one caveat: That the injuries haven't permanently affected his speed and agility.

 

[Ring 6]

So you would prefer to use a 3rd round draft choice. I would prefer whoever wins the battle between Stallworth, Gonzalez and Ochocinco.

I'd like both, because the future need for WR is definitely an issue

Welker
Lloyd
Branch
Gonz/85/Stallworth
Rookie
Slater

Hopefully the rookie can take over Edelmans job as punt returner.