FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning...

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Congratulations, you get an ultrahomer sticker.

LOL.

Somebody gives you a purely facts-based analysis and you can't disagree with any of it, because, well... the facts are the facts.

Your response?

Ignore it, call names and run.

I was born and raised in Indiana. I can appreciate Peyton Manning as arguably a top 10-15 quarterback of all-time, and certainly a hall-of-famer. We are in the business of splitting hairs, and you just lack comprehension skills, so I'll just have to throw up my hands and give up.

 

[bagwell368]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

I think this article says it all..

Stats say what rings suggested: Brady is better than Manning:
Kerry J. Byrne: Numbers declare a winner in Brady vs. - 12.21.10 - SI Vault

A great piece that draws heavily on the two CHFF pieces. It's easier to read and more clear to the moderate fan then the CHFF pieces as well.

I'm looking forward to another 2-3 MVP's (reg and post season) for Brady to overstep Manning, which will do away with that argument.

Another SB win puts the Pats ahead of the Cowboys into the 49'er and Steeler realm. Two would put us over them as well.

BB is now at an age when no other Coach has ever won a SB (I believe), TB has maybe 3 more peak years left, I'd say they are going for it - over the next 3 years.

I'd like to see the Colts, Jets, and Steelers driven before us with the lamentations of their women ringing in our ears - that is best. (Thanks Conan).

 

[JJDChE]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

According to Approximate value...

So you'd rather use a statistical formula than the votes of people who actually watched the players play?

Gotcha.


As I'm sure you were arguing back before Brady was a stat god...intangibles count. Manning had them those years.

 

[JJDChE]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

LOL.

Somebody gives you a purely facts-based analysis and you can't disagree with any of it, because, well... the facts are the facts.

Your response?

Ignore it, call names and run.

I was born and raised in Indiana. I can appreciate Peyton Manning as arguably a top 10-15 quarterback of all-time, and certainly a hall-of-famer. We are in the business of splitting hairs, and you just lack comprehension skills, so I'll just have to throw up my hands and give up.

Ask yourself this. If Manning played outdoors his whole career, would he really be 'worse' or would he just have learned to play better outdoors?

Yes, Brady plays better outside than Manning. Whoop-de-do.

 

[Rossmci90]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Ask yourself this. If Manning played outdoors his whole career, would he really be 'worse' or would he just have learned to play better outdoors?

Yes, Brady plays better outside than Manning. Whoop-de-do.

He plays better inside, he plays better on the road, in the play offs, in bad weather, in good weather and in any conceivable condition you can think of.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Ask yourself this. If Manning played outdoors his whole career, would he really be 'worse' or would he just have learned to play better outdoors?

Yes, Brady plays better outside than Manning. Whoop-de-do.

And yet Brady also plays better inside than Manning, even though his indoor games are all on the road! Imagine if Brady "learned to play indoors"!!!

Their careers are both sufficiently long to have a body of work under various game conditions.

Manning is the elite home-dome quarterback of the NFL, I'll give him that. His only real competition was Kurt Warner as a Ram and Warren Moon as an Oiler, and I'll give the nod to Mr. Neckbolts.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Ask yourself this. If Manning played outdoors his whole career, would he really be 'worse' or would he just have learned to play better outdoors?

Yes, Brady plays better outside than Manning. Whoop-de-do.

Brady plays better than him outdoors and indoors. Is it just a matter of "learning to play outdoors"? Wind will throw passes off their target, the temperature and humidity in the air will change the trajectory of the ball, sorry but that's basic physics. It's more difficult and TFB does it better than Peyton, why wouldnt you want the QB that can play better in the elements as well as indoors?

 

[bagwell368]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

When you even out everything, longevity is a deciding when great players are talked about.

Staubach, Starr, and Graham are all HOF'ers with less games played then Brady. Obviously those guys didn't have 16 game schedules. Steve Young has ONE more game played then Brady. Jim Kelly has 177 games played (reg + playoff) and he's in the HOF - Brady has 162 - so he's liable to pass Kelly this year. I submit as I already have in this thread that Brady has passed the threshold of games played where this argument can't be used against him. If Brady starts 19 games this year he'll be into the top 15 QB's in games played all time, is that good enough for you?

Oh, and he's absolutely right about the stats. He (and many others) are just wrong in the amount of weight they put on 'weather'. It's an argument that's being built up by Pat's homers for years and at this point the 'weather' contingent is so convinced that it's the smoking gun, it's a waste of time arguing it. It's a great example of groupthink.

This is evidence? Why not do some research on the current thinking. Say it gives Brady a 1.5% advantage over Manning. That would make a fairly tight race in some stats quite a bit different. Fact is back in the 2001-2004 time frame Manning fans dissed Brady as a game manager, then when BB saw the implications of the rules changes after 2006, he turned his team to an offensive focus and gave Brady some top quality targets and viola! turns out Brady is every bit as great a gun as Manning - minus the propensity to make mistakes of course.

NFL fans at large recognize there is a difference in playing conditions between the two, but they put a more reasonable value on it. It's just one among many factors comparing the two players.

Yes, one of many. Get tape of the 4 pick game in Foxboro and watch magnificent pink forehead whine, stomp, kvetch, complain, have his head go purple, and prove what an immense leader he is, right there on tape. Then get a copy of the post game conference. What weight do you give that? 1-10 in post season game ending games - what weight on that?

Those are the points I'm making, lots of factors, seemingly almost all of them on Brady's side. All you seem to have is an objection to the shortness of Brady's career which by NFL QB HOF standards is laughable. I gave you the answer - compared Manning to Brady through game 143 regular season - big lead for Brady there, or project the decline of Manning and the remaining peak of Brady with his decline. But you can't nix all of those choices or it proves that you are not involved in this debate in good faith.

 

[Haley]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

JJDChE, before this thread, I might have agreed with you that these 2 were very close, almost too close to call. But this discussion has been extremely one sided in terms of supporting evidence. I have yet to see much of an argument against Brady being measurably superior. Perhaps this evidence exists but it is not being presented here.

Playing the devil's advocate, I might toss out here that a lot of the statistics being presented here may only have become notably superior due to the impact of last year's amazing statistics. The question I have is this: Can the case be made that Brady is statistically superior using only stats prior to last year? Because if 1 year's worth of stats is all that separates these two then calling either superior is very premature. However, it seems safe to say Brady is currently winning the race with very little time left on the Manning clock.

That is the most help I can provide your argument, Mr. Colts fan. Volume stats? Cmon.....that has no teeth and convinces no one. Even you must see that if you count volume success you have to count volume fail.

 

[goheels22002]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

I left off a few things: I'll take TB when

indoors
outdoors

when it's

cold
mild
hot
rainy
sunny
snowy
windy
calm
bright
dark

when
sleet is is falling
Oobleck is falling (if you have kids)
the field has unexplained vortexes
the game is made more difficult by brief meteor showers

I can't think of a scenario when I'd want Manning, unless there's a costume contest at halftime and special prizes are given to Goobers with huge foreheads

Manning is 1-1 (.500) in Superbowls outdoors in the wind and the rain. Brady is 3-1 (.750) in indoor astroturf climate controlled Superbowls. Brady ought to take his act to the Arena Football League. Manning is a far superior championship game outdoor bad weather quarterback.

 

[randomk1]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

"This is Michigan weather right here!"

"Not bad for a California kid! "

 

[bagwell368]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

So you'd rather use a statistical formula than the votes of people who actually watched the players play?

Gotcha.

You think so? Please. I'm very well grounded in sports from a practical standpoint as well as a statistical standpoint, my experience with voters in baseball, football, and basketball is that they are very prone to making judgements based in what they were told what is important, not actually what is important in winning. It's the same in life, subjective factors often overturn common sense and facts.

As I'm sure you were arguing back before Brady was a stat god...intangibles count. Manning had them those years.

You have been arguing hard, but not reading. I claim both statistical AND subjective factors favor Brady.

Again you need to marshall your arguments and produce them instead of all these little dust ups. I suspect it will be a singularly unimpressive collection.

 

[Kid~Brady]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Ask yourself this. If Manning played outdoors his whole career, would he really be 'worse' or would he just have learned to play better outdoors?

Yes, Brady plays better outside than Manning. Whoop-de-do.

How many interceptions did Peyton have last year? ... How many did is handicapped looking brother have as well but claims he's on Brady's level? ...

Brady will always be better than both of the Mannings combined x 3.... face it

 

[JJDChE]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Staubach, Starr, and Graham are all HOF'ers with less games played then Brady. Obviously those guys didn't have 16 game schedules. Steve Young has ONE more game played then Brady. Jim Kelly has 177 games played (reg + playoff) and he's in the HOF - Brady has 162 - so he's liable to pass Kelly this year. I submit as I already have in this thread that Brady has passed the threshold of games played where this argument can't be used against him. If Brady starts 19 games this year he'll be into the top 15 QB's in games played all time, is that good enough for you?

When it comes to Brady and Manning, Manning has 4 more complete season on Brady right now, all at a high level. Brady might close the gap if he can have a few more pro-bowl-like season after Manning drops off, but right now Manning has the edge.

Those are the points I'm making, lots of factors, seemingly almost all of them on Brady's side. All you seem to have is an objection to the shortness of Brady's career which by NFL QB HOF standards is laughable.

This has nothing to do with the HoF, they're both in easy. This is strictly comparing the two. Manning has more longevity and it's not 'hanging on at the end of the career' longevity, it's NFL MVP/Pro-Bowl/All-pro seasons.

I gave you the answer - compared Manning to Brady through game 143 regular season - big lead for Brady there, or project the decline of Manning and the remaining peak of Brady with his decline. But you can't nix all of those choices or it proves that you are not involved in this debate in good faith.

Yes, you can absolutely cherry pick stats to show Brady is obviously better. I'm not going to do the same for Manning, because i have better things to do with my time, but I've seen and read compelling arguments (made by unbiased people) that show stats that would have anyone believe that Manning is clearly better.

 

[randomk1]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Yes, you can absolutely cherry pick stats to show Brady is obviously better. I'm not going to do the same for Manning, because i have better things to do with my time, but I've seen and read compelling arguments (made by unbiased people) that show stats that would have anyone believe that Manning is clearly better.

You don't need to cherry pick anything. Brady is simply a more efficient passer and does more with less.

If you wanna see why Brady has the highest career win % then all you have to do is just look at his 2.5 TD : INT ratio

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Manning is a far superior championship game outdoor bad weather quarterback.

useful link for you:

Sample size determination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

We are discussing the totality of their games played, because in a 10+ year career, even a home-dome QB has a sufficient body of work to evaluate in a outdoor bad weather environment, and an outdoor/cold weather- based QB has a sufficient body of work to evaluate in an indoor environment.

When n=1 what you have is an anecdote, not data

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

A Colts fan's view:



No matter how many facts you give them, they have a blank stare and insist "but... mine goes to 11!"

 

[Nikolai]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

When it comes to Brady and Manning, Manning has 4 more complete season on Brady right now, all at a high level. Brady might close the gap if he can have a few more pro-bowl-like season after Manning drops off, but right now Manning has the edge.

Close the gap? Please. Their age difference really isn't all that great, so Brady's extra seasons will be played as an older man rather than the younger man Peyton was when he played his extra seasons. Besides, Brady could throw 40 TDs to 5 INTs for the next five seasons and you'd still say Manning is better. You call all of us homers, but it's pretty clear that you're a hater.

Yes, you can absolutely cherry pick stats to show Brady is obviously better. I'm not going to do the same for Manning, because i have better things to do with my time,

You already tried with the volume stats and got shot down.

but I've seen and read compelling arguments (made by unbiased people) that show stats that would have anyone believe that Manning is clearly better.

Please post one of them (or more than one) and I'm sure it would give us something to discuss. You've yet to post any stats so far, so this would be a great starting point for conversation, rather than us presenting facts and stats only to have you call us "homers" while offering no real argument in return.

I think the real problem here is that you bought into the stereotype that Pats fans are dumb or whatever you guys think out there in Indy. You came in here unprepared to make a fact-based argument, and got justifiably blown out of the water.

 

[bagwell368]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

When it comes to Brady and Manning, Manning has 4 more complete season on Brady right now, all at a high level. Brady might close the gap if he can have a few more pro-bowl-like season after Manning drops off, but right now Manning has the edge.

High level? Not to nit pick, but 1998 his rookie year wasn't any great shakes, he wasn't in the top 10 in QB Rating, probably not the top 20. Brady has been in the top 10 every year he's played when he had more then 11 attempts.

BTW, have you dealt with the argument that Manning has been paid far more then Brady for less tangible accomplishment? It's crucial in a strict salary cap league. Please give us your insights on this question if you please. Wouldn't this argument be a "totals" sort of argument? How much paid per win, how much paid per SB? Also toss in Manning was the first pick in the draft - that's quite costly too, Brady was #199. The Colts could have taken Moss, Woodson, Fred Taylor, Vonnie Holliday etc.

This has nothing to do with the HoF, they're both in easy. This is strictly comparing the two. Manning has more longevity and it's not 'hanging on at the end of the career' longevity, it's NFL MVP/Pro-Bowl/All-pro seasons.

We don't know when Manning's decline will get steep, but recent evidence, ages, and number of years played (pro and college and wear and tear associated with that), and current team quality (much harder to bear for Manning it seems) all seem to show a better performance on tap for Brady v Manning is in store. Time will tell.

Yes, you can absolutely cherry pick stats to show Brady is obviously better. I'm not going to do the same for Manning, because i have better things to do with my time, but I've seen and read compelling arguments (made by unbiased people) that show stats that would have anyone believe that Manning is clearly better.

Cherry pick what? I asked you to choose the manner in which you want to compare Manning and Brady to do away will this specious counting stat argument you are making. Do try and read what you are responding too, it doesn't make you look very informed when you do not.

What stats, what people, point them out. Have you read the SI piece that was listed here also? If so, would you please discuss each and every point that you do not agree with - in detail. Let's roll up those sleeves.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Brady has a higher winning percentage by a large margin, and I posted last year something like if Manning won his next 75 games and lost 0, Brady would still have a better pct. or if Brady lost his last 36 games and won 0, etc.

So, let's stop comparing the team success by the argument that the Patriots/Brady have been only slightly more successful than the Colts/Manning; Brady's ability to win games trumps any quarterback in NFL history, and the burden would be on Manning's defenders to predict that Manning would have a better win % than Brady playing with the Pats. Seeing their general skill sets, I think the argument could be that Manning is Brady's equal, and that is a stretch, but there's no way you could make a rational argument beyond that. Brady is the bar.