FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning...

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

To this point Manning has had a better career, statistically.

To this point Manning has played more games, chucked it up more, amassed more volume statistics, while the productivity stats are fairly close (except for anything to do with turnovers or winning).

The whole point of this thread is that the areas they are nearly statistical equals overall, such as passer rating, are skewed quite dramatically by weather conditions.

Fact 1: Both are better in good weather than in bad weather conditions
Fact 2: Brady is better than Manning in bad weather
Fact 3: Brady is better than Manning in good weather
Fact 4: Manning plays a much higher percentage of his games in good weather as opposed to bad, relative to Brady.
Fact 5: This inequality makes them overall look statistically comparable but is deceiving, since it in essence compares Manning in perfect conditions (more often than not) to Brady in imperfect weather conditions (more often than not).

I can't put it more simply than that. Read this a few times and maybe SOME facts will sink into your Coltish skull.

 

[JJDChE]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

That is incorrect. Brady is better in every regard except # of years in the league and the resulting excess volume stats, which are not comparable in efficiency. Not only is 'Brady better indoors and outdoors but he is better combined, even though Manning plays so many more indoor or good weather games.
We haven't even discussed winning yet, and Brady has the highest win %in NFL history.
Manning 'getting his' still leaves him 2 behind Brady. Somehow you think avoiuding the slight 'never won the big one' is the same thing as winning 3 apparently.

History doesn't remember efficiency.

 

[JJDChE]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

To this point Manning has played more games, chucked it up more, amassed more volume statistics, while the productivity stats are fairly close (except for anything to do with turnovers or winning).

The whole point of this thread is that the areas they are nearly statistical equals overall, such as passer rating, are skewed quite dramatically by weather conditions.

Fact 1: Both are better in good weather than in bad weather conditions
Fact 2: Brady is better than Manning in bad weather
Fact 3: Brady is better than Manning in good weather
Fact 4: Manning plays a much higher percentage of his games in good weather as opposed to bad, relative to Brady.
Fact 5: This inequality makes them overall look statistically comparable but is deceiving, since it in essence compares Manning in perfect conditions (more often than not) to Brady in imperfect weather conditions (more often than not).

I can't put it more simply than that. Read this a few times and maybe SOME facts will sink into your Coltish skull.

Congratulations, you get an ultrahomer sticker.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Peyton is going down as one of the top 5 of all time.








































Brady is going down as top 4. Hope this helps the debate guys.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Peyton is going down as one of the top 5 of all time....Brady is going down as top 4. Hope this helps the debate guys.

Unless he gets more SB wins, or does something that's out of this world, Manning won't go down as a top 5 QB, IMO. The top 6, in no particular order

Unitas
Montana
Brady
Starr
Graham
Baugh


Manning can fight it out for the rest of the top 10 with guys like Staubach, Elway, Young, etc... I've got a list around somewhere. I believe I currently have Manning somewhere between 11 and 15.

 

[jcdavey]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Could possibly make a case for Rivers, Brees, and Rodgers during that time frame too.

Brady is the only unanimous winner.

i liked rivers stats the year he broke fouts sd td record, but mvp is usually most wins too

favre just got super screwed , he had the better stats and he was only 2 wins off of peyton

his tds and ints were 33/7, peyton's were 33/16

favre's qbr was a whole 8 points higher

peyton was just the fashionable pick

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Congratulations, you get an ultrahomer sticker.

Care to point out where he's wrong?

Or are you just going to stick with the "history only remembers volume stats" argument, and continue to pretend that history remembers Marino, Elway, Tarkenton, Moon, and Testaverde as better QBs than Joe Montana?

 

[captain stone]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

The best part is that I've been called a homer by more than one person tonight. AJ, Mo and a few of the other extreme homers are probably reading the board tonight and looking for kittens to kill.

You're not fooling anyone, DI. We all know that you wear Pat the Patriot foot PJs during football season, and have programmed Gil Santos to wake you up in the morning, on your Mosi Moose alarm clock.

 

[Mogamedogz]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

If history remembered stats more... Marino would be looked at as > Montana.

Emmitt > Brown

Strahan > LT

you get the point.

 

[spacecrime]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

So, Brady's been better in New England weather than Manning has been in a dome, and you contend that Manning would actually improve in New England weather? Interesting.

Anyway, I started this thread because I was amazed that a fact so obvious never gets any play.

Evidently it still doesn't among Colts fans. Not sure why they think it is just as easy passing in a 31* rainstorm in high winds in November-December as it is in a 72* dome with no wind.

 

[Joker]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

But...but...history DOES remember!!!!....tell me one person who does NOT remember THIS....



or THIS.....



or THESE....

 

[Nikolai]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

If history remembered stats more... Marino would be looked at as > Montana.

Emmitt > Brown

Strahan > LT

you get the point.

Does history remember Super Bowls? Who won more of those?

Who threw a game-sealing pick-six to torpedo his team's chances?

 

[randomk1]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

12 pages of this thread? What is there to discuss? It's pretty obvious that Mannings numbers are helped out alot by that dome of his.

No wonder Manning throws so many interceptions...those windy domes are ******* tricky on the accuracy.

 

[PatsFan DK]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

I think this article says it all..

Stats say what rings suggested: Brady is better than Manning:
Kerry J. Byrne: Numbers declare a winner in Brady vs. - 12.21.10 - SI Vault

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

In their career there have been times where Manning has played better than Brady and vice versa. On a whole, neither has clearly been a better player. The difference in the stats is 'in the noise'.

That actually depends on how you're making the comparison.

If you look at both of them after the same number of starts (e.g., after 10 starts, after 20 starts, 30 starts, etc.), Brady has a better QB rating at nearly every point along the way, and that generally playing with a worse receiver corps than Manning had (at least through his first six seasons as a starter).

 

[Fixit]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

What does Manning's 9 consective seasons over 65% completion tell us when you compare it to Brady's 3 career seasons over 65%?

It means he plays in a dome.

Also, he has a much higher completion % to his opponents, as well.

 

[bagwell368]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

He was the best player in the NFL in 2008/9. IME, the NFL MVP voting has been pretty spot on in the last decade. Manning deserved it as much as anyone. He had a QB rating of 100 in 2009. C'mon, you have to see how ridiculous this assertion is.

According to Approximate value, Manning was the 11th most valuable player in the league in 2009, and the 3rd QB after Rivers and Rodgers. A look at how they did makes it clear that Manning was not the best choice in 2009 for MVP. Manning did finally show some leadership, but I'm not sure he should have won this one.

In 2008, he wasn't even in the top 13 players, or top 2 QB's. His MVP here is a lifetime achievement award.

In 2006 Tomlinson easily outplayed Manning, who was the 2nd best player in the NFL.

In 2005 Manning was the number #1 QB, but behind 5 other players including E. James from his own team.

In 2004, Manning and James tied at the top of the league. I can see a co-MVP award as the best choice, but his MVP here is reasonable.

In 2003, Manning was the 7th best player in the NFL. His MVP was a reach IMO.

Before that (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002), he wasn't a factor. In 2007, 2008 and 2010 he wasn't a factor either. So this means:

Manning as a factor as top player in the league in: 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2009 - that pretty much syncs up with my post that says Manning has been in decline. Even if one wants to claim 2004 was a one year unrepeatable peak (Brady has two of those type years, the only QB in league history with two BTW), and that 2005 and 2006 are not decline years, that still gives us 2007, 2008, 2010 - 3 of the last 4 years on a downslope, and in real decline. Manning is done with 100.0+ QB Rating years, and might be done with anything over 92.5 as well. We'll see.

I can see Manning with two MVP's, but the rest of them are based on subjective perception and not fact - and the amateurish mind set that more TD's and Yards make for the best QB - side stepping other concerns such as Manning's propensity to make too many turnovers. Of course those regular season awards do not take into account Manning's whining hysterics in the playoffs - so beautifully seen in January 2004 and 2005 in Foxboro.

Meanwhile MVP of the regular season is not MVP of the playoffs. We see how that's gone so far. I cannot see Manning winning anymore MVP's, but I can see Brady winning more (1-3 including playoffs). If/when that happens, even with Manning's inflated MVP count, Brady will have the lead since playoff MVP's are by definition more important then regular season ones. Also one of Manning's MVP is shared, and so far none of Brady's is - including his unanimous one in 2010.

 

[Sivy]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Has manning ever thrown 50 td a game? No..has manning ever went 16-0? No. Has manning thrown 10,000000 passes without a pick? No.

I know I'm a pats fan, and yea I am bias but it is a FACT that Brady is better than Manning and only die hard pats haters think otherwise.

People are just mad because Manning was suppose to be great (which he is) but brady was suppose to be nothing, but that nothing came up and became the best in the world.

 

[bagwell368]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Evidently it still doesn't among Colts fans. Not sure why they think it is just as easy passing in a 31* rainstorm in high winds in November-December as it is in a 72* dome with no wind.

Because the piped in crowd noise rattles their brains.... and they cannot think straight.

This year the Colts have to win less then 9.5 games, I have a mega 3 year long bet with an uber Colts fan hanging in the balance. Looks good to me at this point. Bwhaa ha hahha.

 

[JJDChE]

Re: FINALLY someone national brings up playing conditions regarding Brady and Manning

Care to point out where he's wrong?

Or are you just going to stick with the "history only remembers volume stats" argument, and continue to pretend that history remembers Marino, Elway, Tarkenton, Moon, and Testaverde as better QBs than Joe Montana?

History does remember volume stats. I never said that was the only thing it remembers. It's a spectrum. It's a gray area. Just like the Manning/Brady debate.

Someone mentioned Gale Sayers earlier. He's a great example. He's always talked about among the best ever, but he's also always ultimately discounted because of his short career. How many lists include him in the top 3 or 5 all-time? Yet, there's a strong contingent who say he's the best who's ever played. When you even out everything, longevity is a deciding when great players are talked about.


Oh, and he's absolutely right about the stats. He (and many others) are just wrong in the amount of weight they put on 'weather'. It's an argument that's being built up by Pat's homers for years and at this point the 'weather' contingent is so convinced that it's the smoking gun, it's a waste of time arguing it. It's a great example of groupthink.

NFL fans at large recognize there is a difference in playing conditions between the two, but they put a more reasonable value on it. It's just one among many factors comparing the two players.