Realistic roster minima - who's in, who's out for defensive front seven?

[Fencer]

Edit: You know you're likely to forget somebody when you do a list like this, and I felt I indeed might be. Turns out it was Ninkovich.

Except perhaps as and when injuries hit, and in the majority cases not for long even then:

We're not going below 3 at K/P/LS.

We're not going below 3 at QB.

We're not going below 4 at RB.

We're not going below 6 at WR, counting Slater, especially since most of the top candidates for returner are at that position.

We're not going below 3 at TE.

We're not going below 8 on the OL.

So we're not going below 24 on offense.

We're not going below 5 at CB, especially given that one is a rookie with a hammy.

We're not going below 4 at S, given the major role those guys play on STs.

That leaves 17 slots for DL, LB, and all the increases you want to make over my minimum figures above.

DL/LB that few people want to cut, or else that few people believe BB will cut, include:

True LB (5)

• Mayo
• Spikes
• Fletcher (but let's hope he's not headed to IR)
• Guyton
• Somebody in the Tracy White role, perhaps White himself

True Patriots DL (7)

• Wilfork
• Haynesworth
• Ellis (but he could be left on PUP)
• Carter
• Love
• Wright
• Pryor

Rushers (whether more like DE or more like OLB) (2)

• Anderson
• Cunningham/Moore

That's 14 of the 17.

Omissions include but are not limited to:

• The other of Cunningham/Moore
• Warren (good guy to keep)
• Richard
• Brace (can be left on PUP)
• Deaderick (can be left on PUP)
• Weston, Cohen, et al.
• M. Carter
• The fact that there seem to be at least 3 contenders for the White position
• The idea of a big-nickel type of safety getting a roster slot to mainly actually play LB

 

[NEPatriot]

Re: Realistic roster minima

I was favoring Anderson over Moore. After tonight I'm not so sure. Thoughts?

 

[Bostonian1962]

Re: Realistic roster minima

I was favoring Anderson over Moore. After tonight I'm not so sure. Thoughts?

My thoughts too. I want to see more Moore.

 

[Zeus]

Re: Realistic roster minima

Sammy Morris has no competition to be the lead blocker in short yardage situations. BJGE, Woodhead and Ridley are givens and they're not going to cut Vereen. That means a minimum if 5 backs with Faulk on PUP.

I like both Anderson and Moore. I was thinking that Anderson was a bit of a one-dimensional player until I saw him chase that screen down. Hope they can keep both - I still think Moore is a bit more versatile but I really like the speed and energy Anderson brings.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Realistic roster minima

I was favoring Anderson over Moore. After tonight I'm not so sure. Thoughts?

I say make room for both. The role is a huge need, and none of the three candidates -- Anderson, Moore, Cunningham -- is a reliably proven commodity.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Realistic roster minima

Sammy Morris has no competition to be the lead blocker in short yardage situations. BJGE, Woodhead and Ridley are givens and they're not going to cut Vereen. That means a minimum if 5 backs with Faulk on PUP.

Vereen could go on IR yet.

And a lead-blocker can always be found and coached up. Certainly there have been linemen in the role in goal-line packages; Seymour's injury aside, that's worked pretty well.

 

[Taxed in Maine]

Re: Realistic roster minima

We're not going below 5 at CB, especially given that one is a rookie with a hammy.

We're not going below 4 at S, given the major role those guys play on STs.

That leaves 17 slots for DL, LB, and all the increases you want to make over my minimum figures above.

DL/LB that few people want to cut, or else that few people believe BB will cut, include:

True LB (5)

• Mayo
• Spikes
• Fletcher (but let's hope he's not headed to IR)
• Guyton
• Somebody in the Tracy White role, perhaps White himself

True Patriots DL (7)

• Wilfork
• Haynesworth
• Ellis (but he could be left on PUP)
• Carter
• Love
• Wright
• Pryor

Rushers (whether more like DE or more like OLB) (2)

• Anderson
• Cunningham/Moore

That's 14 of the 17.

Omissions include but are not limited to:

• The other of Cunningham/Moore
• Warren (good guy to keep)
• Richard
• Brace (can be left on PUP)
• Deaderick (can be left on PUP)
• Weston, Cohen, et al.
• M. Carter
• The fact that there seem to be at least 3 contenders for the White position
• The idea of a big-nickel type of safety getting a roster slot to mainly actually play LB

Going by your groupings, Carter moves down into the "rusher" group with Anderson, Moore, Cunningham. I think all four of them stay.

That leaves 6 true DL, which may be a good #, but I don't see G. Warren not making the team.

On the LBs, you left Ninkovich completely off the list. There would have to be five - Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, Fletcher, Ninko. If someone has to go on IR, Koutouvides, may slip in and get the open spot.

 

[Patriot 37]

Re: Realistic roster minima

Going by your groupings, Carter moves down into the "rusher" group with Anderson, Moore, Cunningham. I think all four of them stay.

That leaves 6 true DL, which may be a good #, but I don't see G. Warren not making the team.

On the LBs, you left Ninkovich completely off the list. There would have to be five - Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, Fletcher, Ninko. If someone has to go on IR, Koutouvides, may slip in and get the open spot.

I agree with everything you wrote. Carter and Cunningham are locks. Moore is versatile and bigger good on run downs and Anderson has looked good as a nickel rusher. As Ellis has played LDE in the 4-3 and Ninko has played RDE in the 4-3 (not that he played much before we got him)

The situation is that based on performance (and reputaion of the injuried players) we have too many good DLman (after the end lof ast year thank god)


DE (5) Moore, Carter, Anderson and Cunningham, Ellis (DE/DT)
deserve to make the team.

DT (6) Haynesworth, Wright, Pryor, Wilfork, Warren and Love. Who do you cut. Someone will probably get hurt but if they don't could we keep all of them ?


QB (3)
RB (4) Faulk to PUP
WR (6)
TE (3)
OL (8)
ST (3)

O/ST 27

DL (11)
LB (6)
DB (9)

D (26)

That's 53 I think we could.

 

[PushnPencils]

Re: Realistic roster minima

IMO.....both Anderson and Moore play with more intensity and fire than JC does.

Both have a quicker first step than JC.

That being said, its too early to let Cunningham go. We need to keep all three.

Also, Gerard Warren is a keeper. I liked him last year and likes what I saw from last night.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Realistic roster minima

Going by your groupings, Carter moves down into the "rusher" group with Anderson, Moore, Cunningham. I think all four of them stay.

Not crazy. But Carter gives the feeling of being able to stand up at least somewhat against the run -- didn't he play in Washington's 3-4?

 

[Fencer]

Re: Realistic roster minima

As per the other thread, I now think that for health reasons Wright won't be on the team.

 

[Taxed in Maine]

Re: Realistic roster minima

Not crazy. But Carter gives the feeling of being able to stand up at least somewhat against the run -- didn't he play in Washington's 3-4?

Wasn't really a question about how he performs a certain funtion. Just an idiosyncrasy of mine.
I like to keep my functions and similar SIZE together. I actually liked your groupings.
I would just keep the 300 pounders as DL, and the 260 pounders as DE/OLB. The rest of the guys can fall into the LB group.

Just me.

 

[mgteich]

Re: Realistic roster minima

OFFENSE
I agree with your minima. I think that we should have one more player on offense (the 25th): 9th OL or a 5th RB, or even another returner. I suspect that one of the OL's or RB's will be on IR before the season starts, making the decision between the two positons easier.
================
DEFENSE (if all are healthy)
I like 16 in the front seven for now, with everyone healthy. I would keep both Anderson and Moore, and would certainly include Warren. I would keep Warren before Love and perhaps others.

Again the issue is injuries. Wright and Fletcher are certainly questionable. Ellis hasn't practiced. And we haven'e seen Haynsworth in a game.

In the end. I expect 15 front seven players, the "norm". 14 positions players plus a STer is plenty. I would expect the freed up positiopn to be another STer, probably a safety.

Edit: You know you're likely to forget somebody when you do a list like this, and I felt I indeed might be. Turns out it was Ninkovich.

Except perhaps as and when injuries hit, and in the majority cases not for long even then:

We're not going below 3 at K/P/LS.

We're not going below 3 at QB.

We're not going below 4 at RB.

We're not going below 6 at WR, counting Slater, especially since most of the top candidates for returner are at that position.

We're not going below 3 at TE.

We're not going below 8 on the OL.

So we're not going below 24 on offense.

We're not going below 5 at CB, especially given that one is a rookie with a hammy.

We're not going below 4 at S, given the major role those guys play on STs.

That leaves 17 slots for DL, LB, and all the increases you want to make over my minimum figures above.

DL/LB that few people want to cut, or else that few people believe BB will cut, include:

True LB (5)

• Mayo
• Spikes
• Fletcher (but let's hope he's not headed to IR)
• Guyton
• Somebody in the Tracy White role, perhaps White himself

True Patriots DL (7)

• Wilfork
• Haynesworth
• Ellis (but he could be left on PUP)
• Carter
• Love
• Wright
• Pryor

Rushers (whether more like DE or more like OLB) (2)

• Anderson
• Cunningham/Moore

That's 14 of the 17.

Omissions include but are not limited to:

• The other of Cunningham/Moore
• Warren (good guy to keep)
• Richard
• Brace (can be left on PUP)
• Deaderick (can be left on PUP)
• Weston, Cohen, et al.
• M. Carter
• The fact that there seem to be at least 3 contenders for the White position
• The idea of a big-nickel type of safety getting a roster slot to mainly actually play LB

 

[mgteich]

Old Counting - 8-9 Linebackers

My categorization has 4-5 ILB's and 5 OLB's. with the OLB's being able to play DE as all Belichick OLB's have always been able to do.

ILB's (4-5 depending on health of fletcher and Spikes; 5 if both are healthy)
Mayo, Guyton, Spikes, Fletcher, White

OLB (4) Cunningham, Ninkovich, Moore, and Anderson
(with Murrell and M. Carter on the outside looking in)
The interesting thing is that, for me, Anderson has become almost a lock.
===============================================
I have us with 9-10 defensive backs depending on the LB count.
===============================================
So that leaves us with SEVEN defensive linemen, which seems right, given that the OLB's play DE.

Carter, Wilfork, Warren, Ellis, Haynsworth, and Pryor make up a strong DL.

Choose you binky for the NUMBER SEVEN DL, but absent two injuries that player won't play much. Obviously, there are lots of candidates. Love and Richard are the only ones who are healthy.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT, there is still room on the roster for an additional front seven player or two, depending on health issues.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

Re: Old Counting - 8-9 Linebackers

i think there will be a saftey or another lb added... i think the players that may not make the team that were locks before camp began, Butler, Brace, wright, and whilhite....

 

[mgteich]

Re: Old Counting - 8-9 Linebackers

I would like us to keep five corners if we can. In any case, 9-10 defensive backs seems likely.
Butler is likely better than most #7 or #8 defensive backs in the league. We have six starting quality players. The rest don't need to be of starting or even potential starting quality.

i think there will be a saftey or another lb added... i think the players that may not make the team that were locks before camp began, Butler, Brace, wright, and whilhite....

 

[nnmnmmnn]

Re: Old Counting - 8-9 Linebackers

I have a better idea. Alphabetical order on swole.

ILB: Anderson, brace, Carter, cunningam ellis
OLB: Fletcher, haynesworth, love, mayo
DL: moore Ninkovich pryor warren wilfork

That's 14 so pick one more.

 

[naF staP]

Re: Old Counting - 8-9 Linebackers

Butler will be one who BB keeps. BB keeps working with him so it looks like BB believes in the kid.

 

[Fencer]

Re: Old Counting - 8-9 Linebackers

Choose you binky for the NUMBER SEVEN DL, but absent two injuries that player won't play much. Obviously, there are lots of candidates. Love and Richard are the only ones who are healthy.

Well, if it's Wright he'll play a lot, but I fear his career his over.

 

[NEPettyOfficer72]

Re: Old Counting - 8-9 Linebackers

Your Linebackers for the New England Patriots 2011 will be Jerod Mayo, Rob Ninkovich, Gary Guyton, Brandon Spikes, Dane Fletcher, Jermaine Cunningham, Marques Murrell and Niko Koutouvides.

All will be used in some form or fashion as I think this is actually our best group since Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinest, Johnson, and Phifer. And I say that because to me, Jerod Mayo I think will and is a top 3 Linebacker in this league and is already starting to exceed Tedy in my eyes as great as Tedy was.

Having that type of talent gives you sooo much more to work with, and especially now that he has help up front he can rome and finally perhaps Ray Lewis will have to make room. Rob Ninkovich is another one, but who is very instinctive, crafty and clever in coverage 2 ints and 4 pass deflections ?? excellent ... and has drastrically improved his pass rush ending with 4 sacks, and who I think is a very good and one of the better all around Linebackers in the league.

Gary Guyton is also coming into his own, an excellent undrafted LB from Georgia who can make plays and Brandon Spikes has become a playmaker at his position as well. Dane Fletcher on the other hand is one that caught my eye during the preseason as someone who attacks the ball very well and is an underrated pass rusher which I kind of picked up on some last year. I think he will make his mark this year for sure.

And as far as Jermaine Cunningham, he is young and can improve but after watching him this preseason, he has elevated his game to those around him and is a very fast, and energetic young pass rusher with a year of experience under his belt so all in all... this Linebacking core is one of the most instinctive, talented and deep groups in the league that should make alot of noise this year