Training Camp Observations 8/5

[Ring 6]

I'm talking quality, not quantity.

.

3 catches with the backups is hardly enough quantity to assess quality.
And you said apples to apples. This is clearly not.

 

[Ring 6]

And with Ochocinco replacing Tate and then some in my opinion, I think Edelman will be called upon first as a better route runner and ball catcher (although admittedly edelman didn't exactly repeat his rookie year in catching ability whether it was rhythm or not). Maybe Price jumps both of them. I don't know what the depth chart looks like in BB's office.

Fair enough, but if you have Edelman higher because he backs up Welker, Tate would also back up both Branch and Ocho.
I can see where Ocho coming in could hold Tate back, but I don't see what increases Edelmans worth when he could barely get on the field last year, and as you said we have added a WR who is higher on the depth chart.
I just think because Edelman is the underdog fan favorite people are overlooking the fact that he was a total nonfactor as a WR last year and thinking he will somehow now be a factor. Hell, some fans think he would be an equal to Welker which is like saying Hoyer can replace Brady with no dropoff.
OK, hopefully I won't now break an ankle jumping down from my soapbox.

 

[strngplyr]

Fair enough, but if you have Edelman higher because he backs up Welker, Tate would also back up both Branch and Ocho.
I can see where Ocho coming in could hold Tate back, but I don't see what increases Edelmans worth when he could barely get on the field last year, and as you said we have added a WR who is higher on the depth chart.
I just think because Edelman is the underdog fan favorite people are overlooking the fact that he was a total nonfactor as a WR last year and thinking he will somehow now be a factor. Hell, some fans think he would be an equal to Welker which is like saying Hoyer can replace Brady with no dropoff.
OK, hopefully I won't now break an ankle jumping down from my soapbox.

I kind of see it as Edelman backs up Welker and Branch at this point. Tate and Price back up Ochocinco. I could be wrong in that assessment, but I think Edelman holds more value as he backs up the two best route runners we have here, I think Ocho will be a great route runner as well, but I believe a "speedier" receiver like Tate or Price will replace his role better than someone with Edelman's skill set. Where as I don't think Tate could do what Deion and Wes do based off of last year and I honestly haven't seen nearly enough of Price to know if he can, but his build and speed make him seem better suited for something besides the shifty route running slot type receivers.

Simply, I see Edelman as a backup for the inside guys, Tate/Price for the outside guys. Hernandez might even steal reps from Tate/Price/Edelman too as a WR, I honestly think we have a good problem when it comes to the WR position.

 

[Ring 6]

I kind of see it as Edelman backs up Welker and Branch at this point. Tate and Price back up Ochocinco. I could be wrong in that assessment, but I think Edelman holds more value as he backs up the two best route runners we have here, I think Ocho will be a great route runner as well, but I believe a "speedier" receiver like Tate or Price will replace his role better than someone with Edelman's skill set. Where as I don't think Tate could do what Deion and Wes do based off of last year and I honestly haven't seen nearly enough of Price to know if he can, but his build and speed make him seem better suited for something besides the shifty route running slot type receivers.

Simply, I see Edelman as a backup for the inside guys, Tate/Price for the outside guys. Hernandez might even steal reps from Tate/Price/Edelman too as a WR, I honestly think we have a good problem when it comes to the WR position.

He surely wasnt backing up Branch last year.
I understand your point, but Edelman had a better opportunity to get on the field last year and barely stepped foot on it.

 

[strngplyr]

He surely wasnt backing up Branch last year.
I understand your point, but Edelman had a better opportunity to get on the field last year and barely stepped foot on it.

Yeah, he was terribly inconsistent last year, but so was Tate. I do agree that none of us want to see Edelman go because of his rookie season, 7th round pick, former QB, he looked like another genius draft steal. That's an instant fan favorite in this area, just like Woodhead last year. Cut, signed, performs incredible in doing the longest tenured Patriot's job who is probably up there on everyones all-time favorite patriot list.

The difference I see is that Edelman proved in his rookie year he could do the job, a lot of speculation about his drop off last year was that he was never put on the field enough to get into any kind of rhythm, I never played in the NFL, I don't know how long it takes these guys to get comfortable on the field when they get very few opportunities all season because everyone stayed pretty healthy. When he was in for a decent amount of time he snagged half of his passes all season (for all but 14 of his yards) and returned a punt for a TD. Tate was in for quite a bit of the season and just never looked comfortable.

 

[Ring 6]

Yeah, he was terribly inconsistent last year, but so was Tate. I do agree that none of us want to see Edelman go because of his rookie season, 7th round pick, former QB, he looked like another genius draft steal. That's an instant fan favorite in this area, just like Woodhead last year. Cut, signed, performs incredible in doing the longest tenured Patriot's job who is probably up there on everyones all-time favorite patriot list.

The difference I see is that Edelman proved in his rookie year he could do the job, a lot of speculation about his drop off last year was that he was never put on the field enough to get into any kind of rhythm, I never played in the NFL, I don't know how long it takes these guys to get comfortable on the field when they get very few opportunities all season because everyone stayed pretty healthy. When he was in for a decent amount of time he snagged half of his passes all season (for all but 14 of his yards) and returned a punt for a TD. Tate was in for quite a bit of the season and just never looked comfortable.

I am not looking at it from the point of view that if he was gifted an opportunity he could have done better but from the point of view that with a great opportunity he did nothing to earn reps.
We had Welker, Branch, Tate. All 3 played a lot. When we went deeper, it was with a TE. If Edelman had a real future as a WR, IMO, he would have earned more snaps last year, especially with Welker recovering from knee surgery.

 

[strngplyr]

I am not looking at it from the point of view that if he was gifted an opportunity he could have done better but from the point of view that with a great opportunity he did nothing to earn reps.
We had Welker, Branch, Tate. All 3 played a lot. When we went deeper, it was with a TE. If Edelman had a real future as a WR, IMO, he would have earned more snaps last year, especially with Welker recovering from knee surgery.

I generally agree but I don't think taking on field reps from Tate would have been the right way to go, meaning he would have to beat out Welker or Branch which obviously wasn't going to happen. I think Tate provided the down field presence, or at least attempted to. In 3 wide sets do we want 3 players doing the same thing or do we want 2 similar and one to "stretch the field".

Regardless of who makes it, I think we see Welker, Ochocinco, and Gronkowski nearly every down with the choice of another TE and RB or 2 RB more often than we see 3WR this season. I think we shave one or two WR off the roster before the season starts and some fans will be disappointed at who goes and others will say 'i told you so'. I think with Hernandez being the hybrid we don't need to carry 6 WR + Slater. We have good depth even if we don't have Andre Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald to make headlines.

 

[TheComeback]

Julian Edelman is an extremely gifted athlete. Unfortunately for him, I think the team saw him strictly as a backup to Welker last year. But that doesn't mean anything. Everyone said that Lawfirm was a nobody in 2009, because he only played FB, and the very next year he turned into a starting RB. All it takes is one injury.

Edelman is an explosive PR. The kid makes big plays every single time he touches the ball. He was the only guy on offense who stood out in the second half of the playoff game. I think he's been seriously underestimated by both the Pats and their fans, but we'll see about that. I think he's more than a Welker clone--he's bigger and has better straight line speed.

I can see why the Pats wanted to bring in another veteran route runner in Ocho. They can't count on Branch to stay healthy. But I think if they give Edelman a chance for the #3 spot, he will pleasantly surprise everyone.

I still remember his 8 catch game from his rookie season against the Jets--couldn't believe how good he looked. I have a hard time believing that he hasn't improved since then, and that the Patriots haven't noticed. Never seen a guy make so many plays through sheer effort.

Maybe I'm just being a homer for Edelman, but I honestly believe he's been overlooked. If we don't give him a chance here, eventually some other team will.

 

[Ring 6]

I generally agree but I don't think taking on field reps from Tate would have been the right way to go, meaning he would have to beat out Welker or Branch which obviously wasn't going to happen. I think Tate provided the down field presence, or at least attempted to. In 3 wide sets do we want 3 players doing the same thing or do we want 2 similar and one to "stretch the field".

I disagree with this view. Tate is no more likely to stretch the field than anyone else. He was out there ahead of Edelman when Moss was here too by the way. BBs history is to put the best players on the field not predefine roles and have a 'go deep guy' and a 'go short guy'.
Look at it this way. What would Tate running a fly do to a defense that Edelman running a fly wouldn't? Our O is based on combination and sight adjustment routes, not on receivers being limited to certain routes.

Regardless of who makes it, I think we see Welker, Ochocinco, and Gronkowski nearly every down with the choice of another TE and RB or 2 RB more often than we see 3WR this season. I think we shave one or two WR off the roster before the season starts and some fans will be disappointed at who goes and others will say 'i told you so'. I think with Hernandez being the hybrid we don't need to carry 6 WR + Slater. We have good depth even if we don't have Andre Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald to make headlines.

It is certainly a group that at least in terms of depth can go in a few directions.

 

[Ring 6]

Julian Edelman is an extremely gifted athlete. Unfortunately for him, I think the team saw him strictly as a backup to Welker last year. But that doesn't mean anything. Everyone said that Lawfirm was a nobody in 2009, because he only played FB, and the very next year he turned into a starting RB. All it takes is one injury.

Edelman is an explosive PR. The kid makes big plays every single time he touches the ball. He was the only guy on offense who stood out in the second half of the playoff game. I think he's been seriously underestimated by both the Pats and their fans, but we'll see about that. I think he's more than a Welker clone--he's bigger and has better straight line speed.

I can see why the Pats wanted to bring in another veteran route runner in Ocho. They can't count on Branch to stay healthy. But I think if they give Edelman a chance for the #3 spot, he will pleasantly surprise everyone.

I still remember his 8 catch game from his rookie season against the Jets--couldn't believe how good he looked. I have a hard time believing that he hasn't improved since then, and that the Patriots haven't noticed. Never seen a guy make so many plays through sheer effort.

Maybe I'm just being a homer for Edelman, but I honestly believe he's been overlooked. If we don't give him a chance here, eventually some other team will.

Hard to believe he improved since the 8 catch game since he caught 7 all of last year.
IMO, Edelman is a good guy to have on the roster. He can return kicks. He can run reverese, he can take a short pass and show good skills running after the catch. But he is an appendage to the offense, not a key part of it. I don't ever see him being a full time WR, but I hope I am wrong.

 

[TheComeback]

I am not looking at it from the point of view that if he was gifted an opportunity he could have done better but from the point of view that with a great opportunity he did nothing to earn reps.
We had Welker, Branch, Tate. All 3 played a lot. When we went deeper, it was with a TE. If Edelman had a real future as a WR, IMO, he would have earned more snaps last year, especially with Welker recovering from knee surgery.

I don't think it means anything except that they see Edelman playing the same role as Welker. So why would he be on the field?

Tate runs different routes as a deep threat. Edelman is a possession receiver like Deion and Wes. And of course they're always going to give the nod to a veterans like them, this is the Patriots, not the Raiders.

The fact is that every time Edelman's been given an opportunity, he's made the most of it. Prove me wrong on that statement. The guy has five 20+ yd punt returns in 27 attempts, and that doesn't include the playoffs, where he's made most of his big plays (including 2 receiving TDs vs the Ravens).

 

[Ring 6]

I don't think it means anything except that they see Edelman playing the same role as Welker. So why would he be on the field?

Tate runs different routes as a deep threat. Edelman is a possession receiver like Deion and Wes. And of course they're always going to give the nod to a veterans like them, this is the Patriots, not the Raiders.

The fact is that every time Edelman's been given an opportunity, he's made the most of it. Prove me wrong on that statement. The guy has five 20+ yd punt returns in 27 attempts, and that doesn't include the playoffs, where he's made most of his big plays (including 2 receiving TDs vs the Ravens).

Again, I dont buy that Tate was on the field to run special routes. We will just have to disagree with that.
But if Edelman is running the same routes as Branch and Welker, why isn't he out there more catching passes?
As for your last statement, he had an opportunity to earn playing time last year and failed, and in the playing time he did earn, he played pretty poorly dropping a lot of passes.
Sure hes a dandy punt returned but that doesnt have anything to do with his playing WR effectively.

 

[TheComeback]

Hard to believe he improved since the 8 catch game since he caught 7 all of last year.
IMO, Edelman is a good guy to have on the roster. He can return kicks. He can run reverese, he can take a short pass and show good skills running after the catch. But he is an appendage to the offense, not a key part of it. I don't ever see him being a full time WR, but I hope I am wrong.

As I said a couple of times, he only seems to get opportunities when Welker isn't able to play. That's why he had no catches last year. Because of that, I'd disagree with your statement that he had a better chance than anyone else to get on the field. The team evidently doesn't want him out there with Welker at the same time; when Welker has been injured, Edelman has consistenly started in his place. So obviously they think he has some ability as at least a Y receiver. Perhaps that will change this year.

Also, the punt return statistics are evidence of his athletic ability. 5 20+ yard returns, some for touchdowns, in only 27 attempts is downright freakish.

We will just have to see if he will get a chance to play. It will take at least one injury to get him on the field, as it's pretty hard to see him beating out veteran route runners like Ocho/Wes/Branch. Those guys have been in the league for years.

 

[IcyPatriot]

​

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

​

Feeling the heat of competition, savvy vet Brady hurls a blocking pad at his rival.

 

[Haley]

​

I don't know about captioning that but I'd love to photoshop the pic of mallet onto a snowboard, galloping horse, spaceship or something ....

 

[bagwell368]

Wasn't he the "Clay Mathews" pick? Sorry, not trying to bring that up again, but I think he was.

The deal that sent the draft pick that become Mathews did not just net Darius Butler, but also Brandon Tate, Julian Edelman, and Gronk (plus a 190th pick to do the Gronk deal). Sorry but its too early to be giving a final grade for that deal(s).

Mathews had the juice issue hanging over him (check him out as a walk on turned into stud)

According to what I have heard he didn't do well in the interview, in particular when he was asked to breakdown film of a failure of his, and refused to take blame, or come up with better alternates for what he had done.

Also GB plays a different system then the Pats have so far, how can you be sure he would have been so effective here as there?

 

[Sciz]

Also GB plays a different system then the Pats have so far, how can you be sure he would have been so effective here as there?

And he's the most overrated player in the NFL. Vollmer shut him down completely (his one hurry was on a stunt), and backup TEs do this to him in the running game: ?Rashard Mendenhall Nails Camera man (Super Bowl XLV)?‏ - YouTube

 

[pdangle]

I stand by my assessment. These are highlight/scouting vids. Every play, or route ran in succession. Yes - in ONE game, Price had 3 catches, was targeted about 5 or 6 times, ran 15 or so routes with potential targeting, made 20-25 breaks and another 10-15 "football moves" doing so. All the while I watched his separation, hand fighting, catching ability, jumping, burst, and body control. So that's about 400 points of comparison, in ONE game. Similarly, Tate also had about the same (and more, at about the same level of performance, in other games) number of "moves" shall we call them.

Anyway, I said it's hard to describe because it's subtle and not everyone is capable of in-game player analysis like that. They all add up to a huge difference in performance. More importantly, it's rare when they lay it all out for you in video like that -play-after-play- and the differences are sooooo glaring.

That's how one can determine "domination" in ONE game.

How can you tell that Price, in his ONE GAME "dominated" by comparison? You had ONE game at the end of the season?

And people seemed to have glossed over the fact that it was Price who was getting an arse chewing from Brady the first day of camp. Repeatedly.

That being said, I have said I expect Price to be the #2 receiver by the end of the year, supplanting Branch.