Does Parcells belong in the Pats HOF?

[JoeSixPat]

The answer is no, the Patriots were never considered a credible respected organization.

The Patriots were always in danger of being moved from day one.

When Parcells left, they were again a joke, this time mostly because of him and the chaos he left including Grier and gnoob owner Kraft. We weren't a laughinstock when our head coach lost focus looking for work before the crucial game(s)? *Just pretend you know about the other one*

I'd say they were in better shape after Berry's SB than after Parcells, because Sullivan got rid of the team.

When Belichick started as coach, they were considered the worst run team in football and least likely to win a championship.

OK - now was that so hard? So Farinella, the Selection Committee member in question - and his point that Parcells and Bledsoe were coming into a franchise in worse shape than the one Brady came into with Belichick in place is FALSE then!

Thank you! Now we know, thanks to you that:

#1. You know more than the Selection Committee, as well as many fans, given your old age
#2. The Patriots were in as much jeopardy of being sold and moved in 2001 as they were in 1993, and;
#3. The Patriots in general were in as bad shape coming off a 5-11 season in 2000, 4 years removed from the Super Bowl with many players from that AFC Championship Team still on the roster as they were coming off a 2-14 season in 1992.

Sounds a little bit odd to me, but what do I know - I've only been going to games for 35 years.

By the way, which city was Bob Kraft going to move the team to in 2001? I'm pretty sure that Farinella and other members of the Patriots Hall of Fame Selection Committee have referenced the fact that the team was really VERY close to being sold and moved out of state during Parcells/Bledsoe's first year.

Again, I'm not as knowledgeable - or old - as you, so help me out here.

 

[JoeSixPat]

For the love of God,can we lock this thread before it hits platinum numbers?

I'll second that.

Which member of the Patriots Selection Committee has not yet been insulted though?

Let's make sure the Parcells haters have a chance to mock everyone. They've insulted Mike Reiss, Chris Price, Mark Farinella, Tom Curran... is there anyone else on the Patriots Selection Committee who voted for Parcells who, by definition, doesn't know anything about football and should be insulted?

Final call!

 

[RayClay]

OK - now was that so hard? So Farinella, the Selection Committee member in question - and his point that Parcells and Bledsoe were coming into a franchise in worse shape than the one Brady came into with Belichick in place is FALSE then!

They both came into bad situations, as did Holovak, Mazur-Fairbanks, Erhardt-Meyer-Berry.

Belichick had a lot of huge contracts and few draft picks, Parcells got a fresh start with a lot of high picks.

Berry and Fairbanks had a mix of high picks, /bad chemistry/bad organization.

Belichick didn't follow Parcells because Parcells quit on the team.

Pete Carroll followed Parcells. Parcells is responsible for the Pete Carroll, Bobby Grier era.

Had Belichick not built a team of free agent castoffs we wouldn't be talking about this. Parcells drafted some good linebackers and Ty Law.

 

[RayClay]

I'll second that.

Which member of the Patriots Selection Committee has not yet been insulted though?

Let's make sure the Parcells haters have a chance to mock everyone. They've insulted Mike Reiss, Chris Price, Mark Farinella, Tom Curran... is there anyone else on the Patriots Selection Committee who voted for Parcells who, by definition, doesn't know anything about football and should be insulted?

Final call!

Oh my, I hope they don't cry themselves to sleep.

I don't hate Parcells at all, in fact I've always been a big booster of him, you could search my posts.

He's one of the top 4 coaches deserving of HOF on the Patriots and not the top candidate IMO (opinion meaning, I have one, I don't need to ask somebody).

He's one of the best coaches, GM types of the era, I'm sure he'll be in the Giants HOF, probably the PF HOF.

 

[JoeSixPat]

They both came into bad situations, as did Holovak, Mazur-Fairbanks, Erhardt-Meyer-Berry.

Belichick had a lot of huge contracts and few draft picks, Parcells got a fresh start with a lot of high picks.

Berry and Fairbanks had a mix of high picks, /bad chemistry/bad organization.

Belichick didn't follow Parcells because Parcells quit on the team.

Pete Carroll followed Parcells. Parcells is responsible for the Pete Carroll, Bobby Grier era.

Had Belichick not built a team of free agent castoffs we wouldn't be talking about this. Parcells drafted some good linebackers and Ty Law.

By the way, you forgot to mention which region of the country Kraft was going to move the team to.

Farinella's point - perhaps his BIGGEST point - which you take issue with, was that Orthwein was on the cusp of moving the team out of New England as the team was truly at rock bottom at the time that Parcells and Bledsoe came in.

We've learned that you feel the team Brady inherited was in WORSE shape than that team which was on the verge of becoming the St. Louis Stallions, so we'd all love to learn more about that and which part of the country Kraft was planning on moving the team to!

As far as comparing rosters, my preference would be to have the 2001 roster with the 1996 Super Bowl holdovers as well as several other upgrades and re-treads Belichick brought into Foxboro - as opposed to the one that Parcells/Bledsoe inherited/developed in 1993 (for fairness sake let's look at the non-QB roster as any roster with Brady gets my vote over one without)

I'm intrigued that you feel the 1993 non-QB roster was better than the 2001 non-QB roster, but then again there are some players on the 1993 roster that I do like... just not enough of them compared to 2001.

Bear in mind that although the cap situation in 2001 was still bad, and Carroll's tenure was worse in my opinion than the record would indicate, the late 80s early 90s team were pathetic, with the team 7 years removed from an embarrassing Super Bowl loss.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

By the way, you forgot to mention which region of the country Kraft was going to move the team to.

Farinella's point - perhaps his BIGGEST point - which you take issue with, was that Orthwein was on the cusp of moving the team out of New England as the team was truly at rock bottom at the time that Parcells and Bledsoe came in.

We've learned that you feel the team Brady inherited was in WORSE shape than that team which was on the verge of becoming the St. Louis Stallions, so we'd all love to learn more about that and which part of the country Kraft was planning on moving the team to!

As far as comparing rosters, my preference would be to have the 2001 roster with the 1996 Super Bowl holdovers as well as several other upgrades and re-treads Belichick brought into Foxboro - as opposed to the one that Parcells/Bledsoe inherited/developed in 1993 (for fairness sake let's look at the non-QB roster as any roster with Brady gets my vote over one without)

I'm intrigued that you feel the 1993 non-QB roster was better than the 2001 non-QB roster, but then again there are some players on the 1993 roster that I do like... just not enough of them compared to 2001.

Bear in mind that although the cap situation in 2001 was still bad, and Carroll's tenure was worse in my opinion than the record would indicate, the late 80s early 90s team were pathetic, with the team 7 years removed from an embarrassing Super Bowl loss.

They were never going to St. Louis unless Kraft allowed them to break the lease or if Orthwein was willing to pay the penalty, which he obviously wasn't.
You may want to hitch your wagon to someone a little more intelligent than this Farinella clown who comes from the Ron Borges school of sour grapes.

 

[JoeSixPat]

They were never going to St. Louis unless Kraft allowed them to break the lease or if Orthwein was willing to pay the penalty, which he obviously wasn't.

Why should this surprise me? You got your facts wrong again.

Fact: The stadium lease had a buyout clause. No owner of anything - let alone a stadium bought for $25 million - would just "allow them to break the lease" without paying a penalty.

Fact: Orthwein offered Kraft $75 million to break the lease.

There's other relevant facts, with direct quotes from Robert and Jonathan Kraft stating that Kraft had an earlier opportunity to buy the team, at far less than $172 million, but he passed up that opportunity (something he openly laments in "Management Secrets of the New England Patriots, given the record price he would pay in 1994... though even that higher amount of course proved to be a worthwhile investment)

There's also the Fact of Quotes from Jonathan and Robert Kraft citing the Parcells/Bledsoe led resurgence in 1994 as the catalyst for Kraft's decision to pull the trigger at the next opportunity, but we already know that you refuse to take them at their word on that matter.

So no - you're wrong.

Orthwein did make the $75 million buyout offer - which Kraft turned down to make the bold counter offer of a record $172 million.

Can we end this now?

I've made my points - quite well I think.

RayClay has made his points - quite well he thinks.

Presumably you think you've made your points quite well too - and I'll certainly agree that your points speak for themselves.

So I'm pretty much done with this. The Selection Committee did what they did - and have gone to great lengths to defend their decisions - and they know they've rankled some fans in the process, and at least one has noted what he thinks of such fans.

I'm fine leaving it at that.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Why should this surprise me? You got your facts wrong again.

Fact: The stadium lease had a buyout clause. No owner of anything - let alone a stadium bought for $25 million - would just "allow them to break the lease" without paying a penalty.

Fact: Orthwein offered Kraft $75 million to break the lease.

There's other relevant facts, with direct quotes from Robert and Jonathan Kraft stating that Kraft had an earlier opportunity to buy the team, at far less than $172 million, but he passed up that opportunity (something he openly laments in "Management Secrets of the New England Patriots, given the record price he would pay in 1994... though even that higher amount of course proved to be a worthwhile investment)

There's also the Fact of Quotes from Jonathan and Robert Kraft citing the Parcells/Bledsoe led resurgence in 1994 as the catalyst for Kraft's decision to pull the trigger at the next opportunity, but we already know that you refuse to take them at their word on that matter.

So no - you're wrong.

Orthwein did make the $75 million buyout offer - which Kraft turned down to make the bold counter offer of a record $172 million.

Can we end this now?

I've made my points - quite well I think.

RayClay has made his points - quite well he thinks.

Presumably you think you've made your points quite well too - and I'll certainly agree that your points speak for themselves.

So I'm pretty much done with this. The Selection Committee did what they did - and have gone to great lengths to defend their decisions - and they know they've rankled some fans in the process, and at least one has noted what he thinks of such fans.

I'm fine leaving it at that.

What facts have I gotten wrong?

And allowing them to break the lease would mean accepting the offer. I didn't think I'd have to explain that to anyone. I was wrong.

Treble damages and a buyout are not the same thing. If there was a buyout, why was it not exercised if they were on the "cusp of moving."

 

[Ring 6]

Why won't you take Kraft at his word? It really happened that way. Kraft says so.

Now you are just lying. Kraft has never said he bought the team because of Parcells and wouldnt have bought it without him.

What do you have against the members of the selection committee? Mike Reiss? Did Chris Price insult you when he was a member here?

I have nothing at all against them.

Most people have a great deal of respect for them and they've made their support for Parcells and the reasons behind it clear.

That is ignorant. Show me 3 people that say they respect them for supporting Parcells nominaiton. Should be easy if MOST PEOPLE HAVE A GREAT DEAL IF RESPECT.

They and other members of the Selection Committee have gone out of their way to make note of the role that a Parcells/Bledsoe led resurgence of fan support during those dark ages - and Kraft has specifically cited that as the catalyst for his decision to pull the trigger and buy the team.

How did they go out of their way? Did they buy advertising space? Make public service announcements? Or did they do their job and write a column about their ballot?
Again, a lie that Kraft said it was the catalyst.

It's interesting that at least one of the members of the Patriots Selection Committee isn't shy about what he thinks about fans that can't come to terms with the role Parcells and Bledsoe played.. and he's not hiding behind a pseudonym either.

He gave his opinion. I gave mine, you gave yours. Why are we throwing a parade?

Let's hope he's right that the silent majority of Patriots nation retains the ability to see things as they really were.

FARINELLA: Bledsoe deserves Patriots' Hall nod - The Sun Chronicle Online - Sports

He is a moron. Only a moron would feel the need to insult people who offer disagreement to the opinion he wrote in an article.
He is the JoeSixPat of the media, if you don't agree with me, I will simply insult you. No wonder you are such a fan.

 

[JoeSixPat]

...or if Orthwein was willing to pay the penalty, which he obviously wasn't.

*sigh*

He was willing to pay the penalty. $75 million. Obviously.

Are you done now?

 

[Ring 6]

Though I have not read through all 30 pages of this debate it seems like one thing that is being lost in this (as well as the 'does Bledsoe belong' and 'does Antwine belong') debate is that many seem to be missing the primary, current question.

The question being asked is not whether or not Bill Parcells belongs in the Patriots Hall of Fame.

The question being asked is not whether or not Drew Bledsoe belongs in the Patriots Hall of Fame.

The question being asked is not not whether or not Houston Antwine belongs in the Patriots Hall of Fame.


The selection committee has already determined that all three of them deserve to be in the Patriots Hall of Fame.


The next question - the question being asked to fans of the New England Patriots - is this:


Which one of those three is the most deserving to be inducted into the Patriots Hall of Fame?

The question isnt whether the Selction Committee believes Parcells belongs in the Pats HOF, the question is whether you agree with them.

 

[JoeSixPat]

He is the JoeSixPat of the media, if you don't agree with me, I will simply insult you. No wonder you are such a fan.

Ouch... touche' sir... that one really hurt.

Look, I'm done with this.

I can - and have - quoted Jonathan and Robert Kraft to back up my points.

I can make indisputable factual statements - including the fact that Orthwein DID in fact make Kraft a $75 million offer - and as we can see, you guys will attempt to say "that never happened" even though EVERYONE knows it did.

Whatever facts I present - you will say I'm lying.

Your quote of jmt's post is a perfect summation. The selection committee DID deem all three worthy of the Hall of Fame. You take issue with them. Let's just end this.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

*sigh*

He was willing to pay the penalty. $75 million. Obviously.

Are you done now?

1. There was an offer of $75 million to entice Kraft to break the lease, he refused the offer.

2. There was no buyout clause even though you reported there was one as fact.

3. Orthwein could have potentially moved the team anyway breaking the terms of the contract. Kraft would have sued and won and may have been awarded treble damages which could triple the monetary judgment.

These are three separate things.

Your "joyful ignorance" (as RC put it I believe) is very amusing. You have been incorrect on just about everything, blatantly make up "facts" and constantly use the straw man argument.


"The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position."


Sound like anyone we know? Goes by the name of Joe Six Pack. Maybe you should change your name to Joe Straw Man.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Ouch... touche' sir... that one really hurt.

Look, I'm done with this.

I can - and have - quoted Jonathan and Robert Kraft to back up my points.

I can make indisputable factual statements - including the fact that Orthwein DID in fact make Kraft a $75 million offer - and as we can see, you guys will attempt to say "that never happened" even though EVERYONE knows it did.

Whatever facts I present - you will say I'm lying.

Your quote of jmt's post is a perfect summation. The selection committee DID deem all three worthy of the Hall of Fame. You take issue with them. Let's just end this.

Did you play near power lines as a child?

 

[JoeSixPat]

Did you play near power lines as a child?

Ouch! Another insult! With witty rejoinders like that you should be a Hollywood action star!

The answer is no.

Here's a question for you. Did Orthwein offer Kraft a $75 million lease buyout?

...or if Orthwein was willing to pay the penalty, which he obviously wasn't.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Ouch! Another insult! With witty rejoinders like that you should be a Hollywood action star!

The answer is no.

Here's a question for you. Did Orthwein offer Kraft a $75 million lease buyout?

Yes he did, which Kraft refused. I've stated this many many times during this discussion. Nobody, I mean nobody disputes this, straw man. It actually proves that the Patriots were not "on the cusp of moving to St.Louis" with Kraft owning the lease.

 

[JoeSixPat]

They were never going to St. Louis unless Kraft allowed them to break the lease or if Orthwein was willing to pay the penalty, which he obviously wasn't.

Did Orthwein offer Kraft a $75 million lease buyout?

Yes he did, which Kraft refused. I've stated this many many times during this discussion. Nobody, I mean nobody disputes this, straw man. It actually proves that the Patriots were not "on the cusp of moving to St.Louis" with Kraft owning the lease.

*cough*

That's some seriously impressive backpedalling there. I think you're ready to remove the training wheels!

Look - drop it. You made a mistake.

I believe you've made your points to the very best of your abilities. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

*cough*

That's some seriously impressive backpedalling there. I think you're ready to remove the training wheels!

Look - drop it. You made a mistake.

I believe you've made your points to the very best of your abilities. Let's leave it at that.

Nice try. You need serious help.

No backpedaling. See it's not backpedaling when it's what I've said from the very beginning, in fact it's what my whole goddamn argument is based on.

Enjoy this little fantasy you've created for yourself, keep telling yourself you're always right even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's not even amusing anymore.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Nice try. You need serious help.

No backpedaling. See it's not backpedaling when it's what I've said from the very beginning, in fact it's what my whole goddamn argument is based on.

Enjoy this little fantasy you've created for yourself, keep telling yourself you're always right even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It's not even amusing anymore.

Look. I don't think anyone KNOWS what you've been saying from the beginning. I know I don't.

I'm really not interested in trying to rummage through that convoluted collection of bent logic for a second.

Here - how about I call you "Winner" of this whole little debate - whatever your point was - and we'll leave it at that.

 

[Triumph]

*cough*

That's some seriously impressive backpedalling there. I think you're ready to remove the training wheels!

Look - drop it. You made a mistake.

I believe you've made your points to the very best of your abilities. Let's leave it at that.

I believe what Arm meant was that the penalty was more than 75 million.

Kraft refused the 75 million offer and Ive never heard if Oerthwein offered more. So, Orthwein wasnt willing to pay what it would have cost to break the lease.