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Think the owners are being the stubborn ones? Think again

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Update:

Jones is now admitting to the behavior he was alleged to have been displaying during negotiations:

“I was in the room to do everything that I could do to negotiate,” Jones said, per Calvin Watkins of ESPNDallas.com. “And like I say, it’s understandable when you don’t agree.”

Watkins says that Jones’ fist-tapping was “more about moving quicker in the talks than telling the players a lockout is coming. “

Jerry Jones explains his behavior during mediation | ProFootballTalk
 
Miguel - I'm not sure I understand what "incremental revenues" refers to. Can you 'asplain?

Incremental revenues is another example of double-talk.

From 2005 to 2009 all revenue went up by $2.39 billion. From 2005 to 2009 players costs' went up by $1.18 million. 118/239 = 49.37%.


http://nfllabor.com/2011/03/21/jeff...uld-be-back-negotiating-wednesday”/#more-4955

Jeff Pash says "there is no dispute between us and the Players Association that the players have received 70 percent of incremental total revenue since we entered into this agreement at the start of the 2006 season."

The players say:
"http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/NFL-players-have-a-few-questions-for-Bob-Batterman-and-Jeff-Pash.html"
"Why did Bob Batterman, Jeff Pash and Anthony Noto tell owners that players’ portion of incremental revenues increased by 70 percent when you know that is simply not true?

I do not know how the 70% figure is true WITHOUT including the 1 billion credit which is money that does not go to the players.
 
Isn't that what they are supposed to do, as business who's motivation is profit?
This is the part i don't understand of many of these arguments. You are clearly stating that they made decisions in their best self-interest to run their business in the most profitable way possible. Yet you assail them for it.
What motivation are you expecting them to operate with?

Generally I've sided with owners in these kinds of labor disputes, but this time I lean more with the players. That said, this is a great point Andy. I mean, these guys aren't running 501 (c) corporations here. NFL football is absolutely, without question, a profit-making enterprise. Nobody - not even a huge NFL fan like Kraft or Snyder or Jerry Jones - owns a team just so they can have some real-life fantasy football fun. Oh sure, they want to win. But they all want to make LOTS of money even more.

It's that motive that's made them uber-successful in the first place, which in turn has allowed them to buy their respective teams. They're not going to abandon that philosophy now, nor is it reasonable to expect them to.
 
So Smith always planned to agree to give back hundreds of millions of dollars before ever seeing the books?

No, Smith never planned to agree to give back hundreds of millions of dollars period. He always planned to decertify pre-emptively in the belief that path via Doty's courtroom would insure he didn't have to. The aptly described heads I win, tails you loose strategy.

Miguel said:
Incremental revenues is another example of double-talk.

If you don't know what a term means I guess that's always what it becomes an example of. The players seem to disagree with the % but not the existence of the term... Incremental revenue is the increase in new revenue over prior revenue per season.

I presume it has something to do with how under the pre 2006 formula owners would not be sharing with players any revenue flowing from luxury boxes and club seating or revenues from local media and advertising deals and naming rights deals or concessions or parking, let alone new revenue increases, and now they are sharing it all. Because what created those revenue streams wasn't what the players did on the field, it was what the owners individually or collectively invested in and were being increasingly asked to privately fund and assume the debt service on - stadium renovations and new builds, as well as expanding their partnerships and presence on local radio, television, internet websites.

They had to come up with a formula to share some of that oh, what shall we call it...incremental revenue with owner partners who were not in a position to generate additional revenue streams in order for them to be in position to financially keep up competitively. Otherwise just 9 of them could make it impossible to get any deal done. The players insinuated and then leveraged themselves into the same position by threatening to walk away from the table and trigger a permanently uncapped future on the heels of that debate if they didn't get to share the same revenue (TR) as the partners at the same rate they'd already achieved based on a smaller pie (DGR).

The players contend that the $1B writeoff which was intended to pay for expenses like league contributions to stadium construction and renovation and building the NFLN and operating a league (it doesn't flow to owners, the league controls it and the NFLPA has oversight on how it is spent) should be counted against the owners share even though they personally individually never see it unless it is loaned to them for a project approved to grow overall revenue. The owners disagree on including it in the formula on the same basis the players argue for including it - it doesn't flow directly to them ($1B divided by 32) either.

The mistake the owners made was not calling Upshaw's bluff in 2006. The mistake the union made is believing that meant they never would... Teams seem to be looking for givebacks totalling somewhere between the going rate to tag a nasty OLG or sign an aging DE who occupies two blockers... At a time when the average team's annual debt service alone is roughly the per season cost of just signing Peyton Manning into his dotage.
 
Isn't that what they are supposed to do, as business who's motivation is profit?
This is the part i don't understand of many of these arguments. You are clearly stating that they made decisions in their best self-interest to run their business in the most profitable way possible. Yet you assail them for it.
What motivation are you expecting them to operate with?



I don't see the owners as the owners of the game of football, i see them as stewards of their franchises lucky enough to be allowed to have that privilege, and i expect them and the players to act in the best interests of the game that has given so much to them all and not simply for the best interests of that profit. The owners and players are both making huge money off of the fans who love and have supported their teams for decades and decades, regardless of who plays for them and who owns them, and for either side to pretend that they are the game and have the right to kill it if they want is outrageous and disturbing. If the Browns and Wilsons or the Jones or Kraft's aren't making enough then sell your franchise to someone who can do better, don't threaten to kill the game as a whole so you can stick more in your pockets.



Personally I think the judge hearing the case should rule for the players that the owners have bargained unfairly and give the owners two choices, to go back to the agreement they had in place and continue with it until binding federal arbitration can resolve it for the long term, or the owners of the franchises who don't agree will be allowed to sell their franchises and get out of the game they can't make any money off of. If all the owners refuse then strip them of their franchises and put them out for bid with the current owners getting the best deals for their respective franchises.


If these owners can't make enough off of this golden goose then they shouldn't be running the franchises because they are worse at business than i am, and that's saying something.
 
If you don't know what a term means I guess that's always what it becomes an example of. The players seem to disagree with the % but not the existence of the term... Incremental revenue is the increase in new revenue over prior revenue per season.

I presume it has something to do with how under the pre 2006 formula owners would not be sharing with players any revenue flowing from luxury boxes and club seating or revenues from local media and advertising deals and naming rights deals or concessions or parking, let alone new revenue increases, and now they are sharing it all. Because what created those revenue streams wasn't what the players did on the field, it was what the owners individually or collectively invested in and were being increasingly asked to privately fund and assume the debt service on - stadium renovations and new builds, as well as expanding their partnerships and presence on local radio, television, internet websites.

They had to come up with a formula to share some of that oh, what shall we call it...incremental revenue with owner partners who were not in a position to generate additional revenue streams in order for them to be in position to financially keep up competitively. Otherwise just 9 of them could make it impossible to get any deal done. The players insinuated and then leveraged themselves into the same position by threatening to walk away from the table and trigger a permanently uncapped future on the heels of that debate if they didn't get to share the same revenue (TR) as the partners at the same rate they'd already achieved based on a smaller pie (DGR).

In the CBA and owners' revenue sharing agreement, the revenues to which you refer -- those from streams which are not pooled by the owners, but are part of the TR from which the cap is derived -- are called local revenues or non-shared revenues. So what you're saying, is that incremental revenues is yet a third term for them?

Additionally, the Total Revenues from which the players get their cut (minus the $1 billion) are defined in the CBA as revenues "arising from the performance of players in NFL football games." This includes the additional streams you name above and suggested are not created by what the players did on the field. I have to agree with the implication of the CBA's definition - luxury boxes, endorsement and sponsorship deals, local media revenues, all of these properties have value solely because of the attraction the players provide on the field. (Except, of course, for when people come to the stadium to see a MLS match or Justin Beiber concert, and accordingly, the players don't get a dime from that.)

Also, most of the revenues you suggest the owners are incurring debt service on entail only the sale of rights. Even things like concessions and parking can be sold as rights -- Aramark pays the team a lump sum, provides and manages the sale of all the concessions, and pockets the proceeds. So between the $1 billion off the top and the fact that the local taxpayers usually go halves on the teams' largest expenditure, if the owners want the NFLPA to take this incurred debt service seriously in negotiations, they're going to have to compromise on the disclosure of financial records.

The players contend that the $1B writeoff which was intended to pay for expenses like league contributions to stadium construction and renovation and building the NFLN and operating a league (it doesn't flow to owners, the league controls it and the NFLPA has oversight on how it is spent) should be counted against the owners share even though they personally individually never see it unless it is loaned to them for a project approved to grow overall revenue. The owners disagree on including it in the formula on the same basis the players argue for including it - it doesn't flow directly to them ($1B divided by 32) either.

The mistake the owners made was not calling Upshaw's bluff in 2006. The mistake the union made is believing that meant they never would... Teams seem to be looking for givebacks totalling somewhere between the going rate to tag a nasty OLG or sign an aging DE who occupies two blockers... At a time when the average team's annual debt service alone is roughly the per season cost of just signing Peyton Manning into his dotage.

I really don't think you're right about the NFLPA having oversight on any league expenditures, let alone the allocation of 11% of the leagues annual revenue. One of the sticking points of the negotiations is that the owners don't feel that they should be obligated to show the NFLPA the accounting of how that money's been spent, so it would be odd if they'd previously let the union tell them how they should spend it.

Additionally, I think whether the $1 billion "flows directly to the owners" or not is a matter of fiscal semantics. It pays for league expenses that otherwise would devolve to the owners. What does it matter if it doesn't go into their pockets, but instead keeps them from having to pay for something out of pocket? And as for not counting as part of the formula -- that's another misleading game of semantics. Even if you don't count it as part of the owners' share, it still needs to be counted as NFL revenue.

Finally, there's another, more compelling reason why it should be counted as part of the owners' revenue -- because the things that it pay for directly increases the owners' wealth. The owner owns the franchise, and when you spend money on the franchise, you increase its value. A new stadium can increase the value of its franchise by 35%. An owner's franchise is a tangible asset and appreciation of this asset is the primary means in which a team owner increases his wealth, and has been since the beginning of the NFL. In the last 10 or so years, the average value of a franchise has grown by more than 350%. They've more than tripled the value of their primary asset.

So not only does this money pay for expenditures that would otherwise be the owners' commitments, the owners own the value of the things it purchases -- I have a hard time seeing their argument to not have it counted as theirs during negotiations.
 
Im fairly confident in saying that revenues have been increasing in past years. Im sure the players want their increase in their share of the revenue to increase in line with how it has increased in past years, and to continue to increase at whatever rate revenue has grown over the past five years. This is fine, however, what if revenue all of a sudden dips for a five year period. the owners will still be paying the players as if the revenues are going up. this is why many businesses have failed. this, im sure, is part of the reason the owners will not agree.
 
Im fairly confident in saying that revenues have been increasing in past years. Im sure the players want their increase in their share of the revenue to increase in line with how it has increased in past years, and to continue to increase at whatever rate revenue has grown over the past five years. This is fine, however, what if revenue all of a sudden dips for a five year period. the owners will still be paying the players as if the revenues are going up. this is why many businesses have failed. this, im sure, is part of the reason the owners will not agree.

The salary cap is tied to revenues. If they decrease, so does the cap -- and floor.

And, as we all know, player contracts in the NFL are highly mutable. Every season, many players choose to renegotiate more team-friendly contracts rather than be cut altogether, the latter of which is always an option for teams that need to dump salary.
 
No, Smith never planned to agree to give back hundreds of millions of dollars period. He always planned to decertify pre-emptively in the belief that path via Doty's courtroom would insure he didn't have to. The aptly described heads I win, tails you loose strategy.

Well, given that the NFLPA had agreed to give back hundreds of millions of dollars, but that wasn't enough for the owners to sign off on the agreement, your point seems to fail rather dramatically.
 
I don't see the owners as the owners of the game of football, i see them as stewards of their franchises lucky enough to be allowed to have that privilege,

Now I see the basis for all of your other posts.


and i expect them and the players to act in the best interests of the game that has given so much to them all and not simply for the best interests of that profit. The owners and players are both making huge money off of the fans who love and have supported their teams for decades and decades, regardless of who plays for them and who owns them, and for either side to pretend that they are the game and have the right to kill it if they want is outrageous and disturbing. If the Browns and Wilsons or the Jones or Kraft's aren't making enough then sell your franchise to someone who can do better, don't threaten to kill the game as a whole so you can stick more in your pockets.
I suppose its pointless to try to debate this given those comments.
But every business makes money 'off of their customers'. Those company owners and employees also act in their best interest. Should Pepsi reduce their price because they should accept less profits to make their customers happy?
No one forces the fans to buy the product.



Personally I think the judge hearing the case should rule for the players that the owners have bargained unfairly and give the owners two choices, to go back to the agreement they had in place and continue with it until binding federal arbitration can resolve it for the long term, or the owners of the franchises who don't agree will be allowed to sell their franchises and get out of the game they can't make any money off of. If all the owners refuse then strip them of their franchises and put them out for bid with the current owners getting the best deals for their respective franchises.
That is not within his rights. He must either rule in the players favor and award them monetary damages, or rule in the owners favor and not. He is not allowed to dictate terms that either side must adhere to, he can only rule on whether or not they have done anything illegal.
After that ruling, since neither side would simply accept the victory, they can reach a settlement that becomes the new CBA, as was done the last time.


If these owners can't make enough off of this golden goose then they shouldn't be running the franchises because they are worse at business than i am, and that's saying something.
I don't know if the issue is 'making enough'. The issue is making what they feel they deserve. We could argue that $2,000,000 is 'enough' but 'enough' is not the same amount to my small business, GE, KMart, AT&T, Exxon, or the NFL. "Enough" is typically the best profit you can manage given your product, market and circumstances.

I think your wish that the owners would sacrifice profit because they already are making at least a modest one, and they should take whatever they can get without having to fight, is not a very realistic approach for the massive investment they make and the risk they take.
 
Well, given that the NFLPA had agreed to give back hundreds of millions of dollars, but that wasn't enough for the owners to sign off on the agreement, your point seems to fail rather dramatically.
Wow, they reached an agreement? Excellent!!!!!! I was under the impression they had not agreed to anything, decertified and filed a lawsuit.
Thanks, in your world what channel will football be on now?
 
The salary cap is tied to revenues. If they decrease, so does the cap -- and floor.

And, as we all know, player contracts in the NFL are highly mutable. Every season, many players choose to renegotiate more team-friendly contracts rather than be cut altogether, the latter of which is always an option for teams that need to dump salary.
The salary cap is tied to revenues. That does not mean payroll expense necessarily is.
As we have seen with dramatically increasing signing bonusses, there can be a large gap between cap cost and actual salary expense.
For example, using Mankins, if he is paid 10mill as a franchise player thats 10mill cash and 10mill cap.
If he is signed to a 5year contract with a 15mill signing bonus and 1mil first year salary, thats 16mill cash, and 4 mill of cap.
Based solely on the top of the first round, it seems that signing bonus increases have changed the equation.
 
I don't see the owners as the owners of the game of football, i see them as stewards of their franchises lucky enough to be allowed to have that privilege, and i expect them and the players to act in the best interests of the game that has given so much to them all and not simply for the best interests of that profit. The owners and players are both making huge money off of the fans who love and have supported their teams for decades and decades, regardless of who plays for them and who owns them, and for either side to pretend that they are the game and have the right to kill it if they want is outrageous and disturbing. If the Browns and Wilsons or the Jones or Kraft's aren't making enough then sell your franchise to someone who can do better, don't threaten to kill the game as a whole so you can stick more in your pockets.

Like I said in a previous post, I tend to side with the players more than the owners in this particular dispute, but I don't agree with your take on this.

I agree that the owners don't own football. But they do own their teams, and collectively they own the National Football League. The players are their employees.

I expect them to act like businessmen and seek to make a very, very large profit off this business. I also expect Adam Smith's invisible hand principle to work as well - when all parties (owners, players, fans, networks, etc.) work for their own interest, incredibly what emerges is something that benefits everyone.

I think it's silly to ask/expect owners to sell their teams if they don't feel like they're making enough of a profit. Do you demand that every business owner of every company do the same? I doubt it. They try to maximize their profit. What keeps them in check are labor costs and the revenue they can bring in from their product.

Football will not die unless the American public wants it to die. After all, we are the consumers. If we choose not to consume this product, game over. If you are that pissed off at the owners, the logical thing to do is to not go to games, buy the NFL package on TV, buy Tom Brady jerseys, etc.
 
If you don't know what a term means I guess that's always what it becomes an example of. The players seem to disagree with the % but not the existence of the term... Incremental revenue is the increase in new revenue over prior revenue per season.

I guess that you missed my response to lamafist's inquiry - "
"Originally Posted by lamafist
Miguel - I'm not sure I understand what "incremental revenues" refers to. Can you 'asplain?"

Originally Posted by lamafist
Miguel - I'm not sure I understand what "incremental revenues" refers to. Can you 'asplain?

I think that they are considering revenue over the 6.49 billion received in 2005 as incremental. 1.28 billion in 2006, 2.39 billion in 2009, x billion in 2008, y billion in 2007. I am inferring from the article that 1.28 +2.39 +x+y = 7.2.

I think that they are considering player costs over the 3.32 billion received in 2005 as incremental. 780 million in 2006, 1.18 billion in 2009, z billion in 2008, w billion in 2007. I am inferring from the article that .78 +1.18+ z +w= 3.8."
 
The salary cap is tied to revenues. That does not mean payroll expense necessarily is.
As we have seen with dramatically increasing signing bonusses, there can be a large gap between cap cost and actual salary expense.
For example, using Mankins, if he is paid 10mill as a franchise player thats 10mill cash and 10mill cap.
If he is signed to a 5year contract with a 15mill signing bonus and 1mil first year salary, thats 16mill cash, and 4 mill of cap.
Based solely on the top of the first round, it seems that signing bonus increases have changed the equation.

The cash/cap gap creates both cash-over-cap and cash-under-cap situations, and the amortization of signing bonuses should give teams more flexibility in terms of minimizing actual salary expense while still staying above a salary floor that would be lowered with decreasing revenues along with the cap.

A player already under contract under a deal like the one in your illustration would only cost the team his base salary plus, but his cap value would be $4 million higher. Thus, players given bonuses in flush years can be retained in thin years, and players signing contracts in thin years will be forced to accept their reduced market value.

In fact, with contracts being un-guaranteed, teams can cut any player guaranteed a large amount of new cash in the offseason, with the added benefit of having the balance of his previous bonus added to his cap cost that year.
 
I don't see the owners as the owners of the game of football, i see them as stewards of their franchises lucky enough to be allowed to have that privilege, and i expect them and the players to act in the best interests of the game that has given so much to them all and not simply for the best interests of that profit. The owners and players are both making huge money off of the fans who love and have supported their teams for decades and decades, regardless of who plays for them and who owns them, and for either side to pretend that they are the game and have the right to kill it if they want is outrageous and disturbing. If the Browns and Wilsons or the Jones or Kraft's aren't making enough then sell your franchise to someone who can do better, don't threaten to kill the game as a whole so you can stick more in your pockets.



Personally I think the judge hearing the case should rule for the players that the owners have bargained unfairly and give the owners two choices, to go back to the agreement they had in place and continue with it until binding federal arbitration can resolve it for the long term, or the owners of the franchises who don't agree will be allowed to sell their franchises and get out of the game they can't make any money off of. If all the owners refuse then strip them of their franchises and put them out for bid with the current owners getting the best deals for their respective franchises.


If these owners can't make enough off of this golden goose then they shouldn't be running the franchises because they are worse at business than i am, and that's saying something.

I see how you arrive at your opinion but thats not the real world. The owners worked hard and smart to make millions or even billions then they risk a large sum on a football team, no where is that lucky and fortunate, either making the money or buying the team. I realize they have to be approved but they're still risking miilions to a billion on a business and you cant expect them not to try and get the most on their return.
I also dont blame the players for trying to get as much as they can since most careers are short.
No one can make the owners sell, they own the teams so they own the league. If it came down to it the owners could outlast most players then enforce their own rules to play by.
Hopefully the judge's ruling gets everyone back to the bargaining table and back to playing football and end this squabble.
 
I see how you arrive at your opinion but thats not the real world. The owners worked hard and smart to make millions or even billions then they risk a large sum on a football team, no where is that lucky and fortunate, either making the money or buying the team. I realize they have to be approved but they're still risking miilions to a billion on a business and you cant expect them not to try and get the most on their return.
I also dont blame the players for trying to get as much as they can since most careers are short.
No one can make the owners sell, they own the teams so they own the league. If it came down to it the owners could outlast most players then enforce their own rules to play by.
Hopefully the judge's ruling gets everyone back to the bargaining table and back to playing football and end this squabble.

If I were the owners this is exactly what I would be threatening the players with right now. The players opened the box up with the law suit and if I were the owners I would threaten to go that path and then cut salaries like crazy under the new rules. Let the players sit there and struggle with the idea of ruining the sport and hurting the players that follow them so that they can win a law suit that would award them monitary value but cant actually settle anything and will leave the owners trying to find away to make up what they lost in the suit and take it out on future players to make it back.
 
The players contend that the $1B writeoff which was intended to pay for expenses like league contributions to stadium construction and renovation and building the NFLN and operating a league (it doesn't flow to owners, the league controls it and the NFLPA has oversight on how it is spent) should be counted against the owners share even though they personally individually never see it unless it is loaned to them for a project approved to grow overall revenue. The owners disagree on including it in the formula on the same basis the players argue for including it - it doesn't flow directly to them ($1B divided by 32) either.
That's not my recollection of the player's position on the $1B credit.

From the AP article it appears that the owners are including the 1B credit as going to the players even though the players never see it.

Since you claim that I did not know the meaning of incremental revenue, I ask that you please back up the owners' contention that the players have received 70% of the incremental revenue.
 
The cash/cap gap creates both cash-over-cap and cash-under-cap situations, and the amortization of signing bonuses should give teams more flexibility in terms of minimizing actual salary expense while still staying above a salary floor that would be lowered with decreasing revenues along with the cap.

A player already under contract under a deal like the one in your illustration would only cost the team his base salary plus, but his cap value would be $4 million higher. Thus, players given bonuses in flush years can be retained in thin years, and players signing contracts in thin years will be forced to accept their reduced market value.

In fact, with contracts being un-guaranteed, teams can cut any player guaranteed a large amount of new cash in the offseason, with the added benefit of having the balance of his previous bonus added to his cap cost that year.
That does not change the fact that cap and expense are not the same thing, and rising signing bonusses could have a dramatic effect.
 
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