Patriots type 3-4 OLB

[WesWelker83]

There is now some tape on Pierre Allen on youtube as well vs Texas A&M. I think hes all 4-3 DE. He can't play in space at all or play standing up. He also never drops into coverage. For some reason he looks so slow to me on this tape.

YouTube - Pierre Allen vs. Texas A&M

 

[Sciz]

Also not an Acho fan. I am a fan of Pierre Allen's height, weight, and arm length, but not his athleticism.

 

[MaineMan]

brooks reed from arizona is another one although he may be a bit more of a project......6'3"/257......great motor and good pass rush skills......just not much time as an LB.......but then again, neither was tedy bruschi.....reed basically played to the same level as kerrigan in the senior bowl. and he will able to be had in the 4th round

Not that it makes an enormous difference, but a lot of sites have Reed going in the late-2nd/early 3rd since his Senior Bowl.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Trade up for Quinn

He looks like the prototypical Patriots LB. Plays like a monster. The way he abused Costanzo was almost laughable had I not been cheering for BC. There is no question his strength and speed are not a concern if he moves to LB. He's perfect imo. Character flaws are the key though. Does BB think this kid is mentally ready for the NFL and the Patriots?

He is one of the 2 or 3 guys I consider moving up for. Everyone else can just fall to 17.

 

[MaineMan]

He looks like the prototypical Patriots LB. Plays like a monster. The way he abused Costanzo was almost laughable had I not been cheering for BC. There is no question his strength and speed are not a concern if he moves to LB. He's perfect imo. Character flaws are the key though. Does BB think this kid is mentally ready for the NFL and the Patriots?

He is one of the 2 or 3 guys I consider moving up for. Everyone else can just fall to 17.

I'm still not quite getting this.

Quinn is a guy who played one year of great college ball, near the end of which he beat Castonzo like a drum. That was nearly a year and a half ago and the guy has been out of football almost since then, due entirely to his own actions that give rise to significant concerns wrt his character and maturity. Meanwhile, Castonzo, even with another year of football experience under his belt since his beating at the hands of Quinn, still doesn't look very good in his Senior Bowl week (so, how good could he really have been when Quinn schooled him?).

But, somehow, this all adds up to a reason to trade draft picks to move up to take Quinn? What am I missing?

 

[WesWelker83]

I'm still not quite getting this.

Quinn is a guy who played one year of great college ball, near the end of which he beat Castonzo like a drum. That was nearly a year and a half ago and the guy has been out of football almost since then, due entirely to his own actions that give rise to significant concerns wrt his character and maturity. Meanwhile, Castonzo, even with another year of football experience under his belt since his beating at the hands of Quinn, still doesn't look very good in his Senior Bowl week (so, how good could he really have been when Quinn schooled him?).

But, somehow, this all adds up to a reason to trade draft picks to move up to take Quinn? What am I missing?

Costanzo was good all week during Senior Bowl practices. He did have a poor game but hes still rated as a first round pick by everyone. He started for all four years at BC and Quinn destroyed him in 09. Watch the Virginia vs UNC game on youtube as well from 09. Quinn dominated them and they usually produce some very good NFL OL: D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Brandon Albert, etc. I think Quinn's biggest weakness is defending the run but he has the physical attributes to become a great run defender and with added strength and better coaching he could become a force vs the run. He needs to learn more pass rush moves as well but his size, speed, quickness, and athletic ability can't be touched. This guy blows away Aldon Smith who some people gush about on this site.

I still don't think we take Quinn because of the cost to move up. If he drops to like 12-14 I could see us moving up though.

 

[DW Toys]

Um, no. He's nowhere near as explosive as Matthews. He MAY sneak into the back end of the second if he has a great combine, but right now I think he's a late 3rd - mid 4th prospect. I like him, but he's essentially TBC with a bit more fire and bulk to him.

Have to disagree Cousin.

4.6s.bench pressed 425. power clean 405 (a couple of times). His squat was 550
• Naturally athletic with fantastic agility and balance
• Quick with a burst and plays faster than he times
• Is a lot stronger and more powerful than you'd think
• A reliable tackler who can also pack quite a punch
• Plays with proper pad level and uses good leverage
• Absolutely relentless in pursuit and closes in a hurry
• Extremely active and aggressive with excellent range
• Terrific instincts and awareness with top football IQ
• Competitive and intense with an unparalleled motor
• Showcases a varied repertoire of pass rush moves
• Versatile and can play multiple positions / schemes
• Is a respected leader with an outstanding work ethic
• Was productive with a lot of high-quality experience

A three-year starter and team captain for the Wildcats --- Named 1st Team All-Pac-10 in 2010

He is an early 2nd round pick. What is not to like from BBs check list.

I like Reed but I am in the Kerrigan Camp. Too many negatives on Ayers. Quinn is good. If I trade up it is for Miller. I may be wrong but I see All Pro in a Derrick Brooks mold but Miller can play a 3-4 OLB and Brooks could not.

Here is my Trader/Mock. I'd rather go for:

Cameron Jordan at#17,

Sign Mankins,

Re-Sign Light for a pair of years to get a young OT ready,

Get back a healthy Ty Warren, Bodden, Brace, Pryor. McGowan, Wright, Ghost, Kaczur.....and Brady

Pick G Danny Watkins (Baylor) at #33 (starts)

Trade #28 and #92 for Larry Fitzgerald (no explanation),

Pick Reed at #74 (OLB takes TBC place)

Sign OLB Manny Lawson in FA who is only 26 and NFL READY,Maybe the best all around OLB who is available and not franchised.

Sign Champ Bailey FA as a FS.

Pick OT James Carpenter (Bama)in the 4th (sleeper-All SEC 27 starts at LT)

Supplemental for Ben Watson=John Moffitt G/C (Wisc.) eventual Koppen replacement and much bigger.Very tough.

Pick S Shiloh Keo (Idaho) in the 5th (can return kicks) great all around multi-positional player.Great East West Game.

Pick RB Roy Helu (Nebraska)in the 6th (faster than BGE,bigger than Woodhead. A good complimentary back)

If Ty Warren, Wright or Pryor are still not ready for the 2011, Shaun Rogers on the cheap as a FA.

There are two 3/4 OLBs to consider in this scenario but it does not have to be a Draft pick.

DW Toys

 

[Patriot Missile]

I'm still not quite getting this.

Quinn is a guy who played one year of great college ball, near the end of which he beat Castonzo like a drum. That was nearly a year and a half ago and the guy has been out of football almost since then, due entirely to his own actions that give rise to significant concerns wrt his character and maturity. Meanwhile, Castonzo, even with another year of football experience under his belt since his beating at the hands of Quinn, still doesn't look very good in his Senior Bowl week (so, how good could he really have been when Quinn schooled him?).

But, somehow, this all adds up to a reason to trade draft picks to move up to take Quinn? What am I missing?

There are a lot of players that only played 1 good year of college ball that project as first rounders. I realize BB likes high character guys and players with production. For this kid to be considered a top 5 picks after being out of football for a year in a draft full of DE's tells me a lot about his talent level. Btw Castonzo was just a sample, I'm not going to base Robert Quinn playing against 1 player. Though I'm sure he would do it again if they did meet again.

He brings the pass rush and power we need and I don't think there is a player in awhile that is more equipped to move from DE to OLB than this guy.. He can play both in some instances. I'll let BB decide the character issues for himself, but if he falls out of the top 10 I'd be willing to move up personally.

No, I'm not going into the top 10 for anyone in this draft. There are 3 players I consider at 11 and up to be good fits for this team and worth trading up for. Jordan,Quinn and Dareus.
One of Clayborn,Miller,Watt, A.Smith,Kerrigan and some OT's will fall to us at 17. Either way, we are a better team at the end of the day.

 

[MaineMan]

There are a lot of players that only played 1 good year of college ball that project as first rounders. I realize BB likes high character guys and players with production. For this kid to be considered a top 5 picks after being out of football for a year in a draft full of DE's tells me a lot about his talent level. Btw Castonzo was just a sample, I'm not going to base Robert Quinn playing against 1 player. Though I'm sure he would do it again if they did meet again.

He brings the pass rush and power we need and I don't think there is a player in awhile that is more equipped to move from DE to OLB than this guy.. He can play both in some instances. I'll let BB decide the character issues for himself, but if he falls out of the top 10 I'd be willing to move up personally.

No, I'm not going into the top 10 for anyone in this draft. There are 3 players I consider at 11 and up to be good fits for this team and worth trading up for. Jordan,Quinn and Dareus.
One of Clayborn,Miller,Watt, A.Smith,Kerrigan and some OT's will fall to us at 17. Either way, we are a better team at the end of the day.

Thanks.

BTW - I wasn't picking on you personally, but I've seen a whole bunch of Quinn-love everywhere and I really don't understand it. I mean, I've seen tape, too. And he WAS good - 17 months ago. That's a real stumbling block for me - at least in terms of spending a high 1st rounder.

 

[Defsoul]

Quinn's situation is a bit simliar to the situation of any player who got hurt prior to the start of the college football season and then missed the whole year: you have to base your evaluation on sophomore/junior tape. Now I know that there are different concern. With Quinn you have character concern, because he lied to the NCAA investigators and put himself and not the team first. With an injured guy you have medical concern. You need to check him out and make sure that his injury is 100% healed and won't cause any future problems. Quinn's situation is a bit like the situation of Gronkoswki who missed all of the 2009 season because of a back injury that required surgery. Teams had to go back and evaluate his freshman and sophomore tape to judge his ability as a player.

 

[MaineMan]

Quinn's situation is a bit simliar to the situation of any player who got hurt prior to the start of the college football season and then missed the whole year: you have to base your evaluation on sophomore/junior tape. Now I know that there are different concern. With Quinn you have character concern, because he lied to the NCAA investigators and put himself and not the team first. With an injured guy you have medical concern. You need to check him out and make sure that his injury is 100% healed and won't cause any future problems. Quinn's situation is a bit like the situation of Gronkoswki who missed all of the 2009 season because of a back injury that required surgery. Teams had to go back and evaluate his freshman and sophomore tape to judge his ability as a player.

I understand the comparison to players who miss their final season to injury and I'd throw Brandon Tate into that category as well. The main factor I'm questioning is cost (trading high picks in order to go up and get a guy with such an issue), but also, to some extent, positional expectations.

Gronk is a TE which hadn't been, when he was drafted, a critical piece of the Pats offense for awhile. The 2010 offense developed, to some extent, around what turned out to be his elite capabilities. If he hadn't turned out to be elite, we'd have overpaid slightly for a role player. Maybe. Once you calculate all the trades to get to the 2010 #42, the Pats got Gronk and Edelman for the pick-trade-value equivalent of an early 3rd rounder (#68 = 250 points). Not a huge downside for the risk.

Tate was picked up mostly as a KR/developmental WR prospect for the #5/#6 WR spot. He was selected at #83 (= 175 pick trade points), although, if you run the calculations all the way back, Tate, Gronk, Edelman and Darius Butler all derived from the 2009 trade of the #26 to GB. In any case, not a huge investment for a role player who might become more. Also, not a huge downside for the risk.

With Quinn, no matter how you slice it, you're drafting a mainstay position, not a role player. NFLDraftScout currently projects him in the #6 slot. In order to get there, it would cost the #17 PLUS roughly 650 draft trade points, or 50% more than what it cost for Gronk, Tate and Edelman combined. To me, that seems a cost-prohibitive downside for the risk.

 

[Patriot Missile]

I understand the comparison to players who miss their final season to injury and I'd throw Brandon Tate into that category as well. The main factor I'm questioning is cost (trading high picks in order to go up and get a guy with such an issue), but also, to some extent, positional expectations.

Gronk is a TE which hadn't been, when he was drafted, a critical piece of the Pats offense for awhile. The 2010 offense developed, to some extent, around what turned out to be his elite capabilities. If he hadn't turned out to be elite, we'd have overpaid slightly for a role player. Maybe. Once you calculate all the trades to get to the 2010 #42, the Pats got Gronk and Edelman for the pick-trade-value equivalent of an early 3rd rounder (#68 = 250 points). Not a huge downside for the risk.

Tate was picked up mostly as a KR/developmental WR prospect for the #5/#6 WR spot. He was selected at #83 (= 175 pick trade points), although, if you run the calculations all the way back, Tate, Gronk, Edelman and Darius Butler all derived from the 2009 trade of the #26 to GB. In any case, not a huge investment for a role player who might become more. Also, not a huge downside for the risk.

With Quinn, no matter how you slice it, you're drafting a mainstay position, not a role player. NFLDraftScout currently projects him in the #6 slot. In order to get there, it would cost the #17 PLUS roughly 650 draft trade points, or 50% more than what it cost for Gronk, Tate and Edelman combined. To me, that seems a cost-prohibitive downside for the risk.

I guess it all depends who you ask. I don't think anyone here is hammering giving up there whole draft for someone in the top 10. I think we made it clear pretty our preferance if someone falls past 10.

However, if BB interviews,works out and comes to the conclusion that Quinn is the guy for his system and trades up to 6. What are your feelings then? {1600 6th pick} (950 17)+ (660 28)=1610. Ofcourse this is all hypothetical because the chances of the exact scenario happenening are very low. But does it change your thinking about the player and the coach if BB gives his thumbs up and decides that he is going to work with Quinn? It certainly does mine.

I think because of the way BB has been drafting as of late, fans and media instantly assume we are trading back. Personally, I believe him when he says if there is someone they really like they will move up for that player. It may not be this year because maybe that player still isn't there that they seek. If they do move back or stay put I'm not going to be disspaointed at all. He has a pretty good track record of doing the right things lately.

 

[MaineMan]

I guess it all depends who you ask. I don't think anyone here is hammering giving up there whole draft for someone in the top 10. I think we made it clear pretty our preferance if someone falls past 10.

However, if BB interviews,works out and comes to the conclusion that Quinn is the guy for his system and trades up to 6. What are your feelings then? {1600 6th pick} (950 17)+ (660 28)=1610. Ofcourse this is all hypothetical because the chances of the exact scenario happenening are very low. But does it change your thinking about the player and the coach if BB gives his thumbs up and decides that he is going to work with Quinn? It certainly does mine.

I think because of the way BB has been drafting as of late, fans and media instantly assume we are trading back. Personally, I believe him when he says if there is someone they really like they will move up for that player. It may not be this year because maybe that player still isn't there that they seek. If they do move back or stay put I'm not going to be disspaointed at all. He has a pretty good track record of doing the right things lately.

Well, as always, BB has "final say" in this household. If he did trade the #17 + #28 to move up for Quinn, I'd be shocked/puzzled, but I wouldn't be going on any rants about how "BB has gone off his rocker!! BB blew it big this time!!!" or any of the nonsense I'd expect to see from other Quinn non-fans.

And, it's true that I've seen no real "OMG!!! We HAVE to move up to #6 and get QUINN!!" (or Fairley or Dareus or whoever) on this board, as compared to, say, Reiss' board (among others).

All I'm really saying is that I wouldn't move up to get Quinn at #6 or even #10 or #15 and, IMHO, I don't think BB will either. Based on what I think I know of both, it doesn't sound like a good value proposition at all.

WRT Bill potentially trading down, I think there's a good chance he will - but NOT because he's done so in the past. That would seem as silly as saying that BB absolutely WILL NOT draft an OLB in the 1st round because he never has. I project him trading down simply because many of the players that I've thought for awhile were best fits and worthy of high picks have begun to slide. Meanwhile, prospects that I had much earlier identified as "sleepers"/very late round/UDFA prospects that seem to fit the Pats have begun to rise a bit. So, trading down a bit to select guys I would've picked at #17, 28 and 33 anyway and, thus, gaining more later picks to have more shots at the "sleepers" seems to make sense to me - within the context of just this draft, regardless what he's done before.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Well, as always, BB has "final say" in this household. If he did trade the #17 + #28 to move up for Quinn, I'd be shocked/puzzled, but I wouldn't be going on any rants about how "BB has gone off his rocker!! BB blew it big this time!!!" or any of the nonsense I'd expect to see from other Quinn non-fans.

And, it's true that I've seen no real "OMG!!! We HAVE to move up to #6 and get QUINN!!" (or Fairley or Dareus or whoever) on this board, as compared to, say, Reiss' board (among others).

All I'm really saying is that I wouldn't move up to get Quinn at #6 or even #10 or #15 and, IMHO, I don't think BB will either. Based on what I think I know of both, it doesn't sound like a good value proposition at all.

WRT Bill potentially trading down, I think there's a good chance he will - but NOT because he's done so in the past. That would seem as silly as saying that BB absolutely WILL NOT draft an OLB in the 1st round because he never has. I project him trading down simply because many of the players that I've thought for awhile were best fits and worthy of high picks have begun to slide. Meanwhile, prospects that I had much earlier identified as "sleepers"/very late round/UDFA prospects that seem to fit the Pats have begun to rise a bit. So, trading down a bit to select guys I would've picked at #17, 28 and 33 anyway and, thus, gaining more later picks to have more shots at the "sleepers" seems to make sense to me - within the context of just this draft, regardless what he's done before.

Good points as usual. I can't wait until Feb 23rd. The combine will shake this place up quite a bit. New sleepers out of nowhere will arise. Good football players will fall. Some with no business being in the NFL will get drafted because they can run fast or run around a few cones. Best time of the year. Besides draft weekend and a Super Bowl run ofcourse.

 

[MaineMan]

Good points as usual. I can't wait until Feb 23rd. The combine will shake this place up quite a bit. New sleepers out of nowhere will arise. Good football players will fall. Some with no business being in the NFL will get drafted because they can run fast or run around a few cones. Best time of the year. Besides draft weekend and a Super Bowl run ofcourse.

For some of these guys, the official weigh-in alone may make a difference.

 

[WesWelker83]

I really like Ryan Kerrigan as a prospect. I have been reading alot od raft sites and everyone has good things to say about him. I alos have been watching alot of film on him and he seems like he will be a very good player in the NFL. If he can drop into coverage and play in space could BB finally draft a 3-4 OLB in round 1? Here are some clips on youtube of Kerrigan. He does an excellent job setting the edge with his long arms and great base strength. I also think hes relentless going after the QB sometimes going through 2 players. His motor is also non stop. I also love the fact that even if he doesn't get the tackle or sack he makes an impact by collapsing the pocket which is such an underrated trait. Check him out:

YouTube - Ryan Kerrigan vs. Michigan (2009) 2009 vs Michigan
YouTube - Ryan Kerrigan vs. Northwestern 2010 vs NW
YouTube - DE Ryan Kerrigan 2010 vs Michigan and MSU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTRVZbfUMy0&feature=related 2010 Senior Bowl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD2ppuujDXE&feature=related 2010 vs OSU

 

[KevinFaulk-33]

What about Justin Houston?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

What about Justin Houston?

He's a possibility, but there are a number of holes in his game and reportedly has maturity or underachiever issues to address in interviews and work ethic. I don't see him with a first round grade, perhaps mid-second. :confused2:

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

So Box, did Kerrigan display any better ability to get off/shed blocks? Because from what I've heard once the OL get their arms into him, Kerrigan has a hard time getting off the block. Stacking and shedding will be important skills if we're going to project Kerrigan as a 3-4 2 gap OLB. He sounds impressive enough rushing the passer but how does he set the edge against the run?

I do apologize, I missed this query in prior readings:

I refer you back to my quote from which you based your query. Please note I was discussing the potential for BB drafting a "one trick pony" who had demonstrated sufficient talent as an edge rusher to warrant consideration (a Lawrence Taylor redux as it were).

Kerrigan does indeed have any number of warts in that regard, but he reportedly has a good work ethic which would allow him to develop, so the uncertainty remains his athleticism should NE attempt to use him as one of their OLBs. We can hope to see how he performs in LB drills at the Combine. My personal assessment is he'd be a better value for NE with the #33 pick; Von Miller on the other hand I'd be more inclined to consider with the #17, as he's demonstrated some ability to play in space.

 

[Patriot Missile]

He's a possibility, but there are a number of holes in his game and reportedly has maturity or underachiever issues to address in interviews and work ethic. I don't see him with a first round grade, perhaps mid-second. :confused2:

I know you are high on Watt as a DE. I'm starting to get warm to him. Great film and seems to have the motor of guy that never quits and always being in the right place at the right time. Who are you liking as far as LBs? Do you see Kerrigan as being able to make the conversion to LB? Thoughts?