The Worst Defense in the History of the World...

[RayClay]

You are putting words into my mouth. 3rd down defense is part of the entire body of work, equally as important as any other defensive stat.

uh,no........

The one stat that I think needs to be improved on his 3rd down D, going into last night the Pats were last in the league. The Pats did have a solid night last night limiting the Jets to 3-12 on 3rd down. They have been getting bailed out by the turnovers in past games and I just feel like come playoff time its hard to depend on turnovers to consistently keep bailing you out.

3rd downs on defense are equally as important regardless of the opponent or situation. You never want the offense to convert on 3rd down, especially on 3rd and long. This is the time to step up and make a stop and get the D off the field.

Allowing teams to covert on 3rd down keeps the D on the field longer and offenses to have longer drives against the Pats. Recently the Pats have been bailed out by forcing an INT. My point is in the playoffs it is very unlikely that the Pats will be able to force an INT and be bailed out by giving up 3rd down conversions.

Your whole argument is based on one game and one QB in which the Pats had a 17 point lead in were in prevent the majority of the 2nd half...

Failing to stop opponents on 3rd down, leaves the door open for opposing QBs to make teams pay. In the playoffs QBs will most likely take advantage of this

 

[The Dynasty]

uh,no........

All of that is true. Not once did I say that 3rd down defense was the most important defensive stat. It is one of the defensive stats that contributes to the whole body of work.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Sanchez and Cassel I agree, havent done anything. Flacco beat the Patriots last year, but really hasnt had a great postseason career. I am very nervous about Manning and the Colts. I just dont have a good feeling about Manning going against this young Patriots defense in the playoffs. Roethisberger has been very successful in the postseason. I agree the Patriots are not facing the quarterbacks you named, but look at the Patriots defense they are not the '86 Bears...

Manning scares me no question. But he also scared me in 03 and 04 when the D was top 5. Since then he has proven to be a HoF Qb who if played the 85 Bears D, would scare them too. In 10 playoff games, Roeth has thrown 12 picks. He deserves his 2 rings, but he has a helluva supporting cast.

I was just making a point that just because a team is #1 in offense during the regular season doesnt mean that it is a guarantee it will continue. It can struggle.

Yes it can struggle against a very good defense and if it turns the ball over and faces a crazy pass rush. Could happen but anything could happen.

The wild card with this years Patriots team is their youth and inexperience. It can happen, I am not denying it. It just comes with a great deal of risk.

I don't see the huge amount of risk you are referring to as it relates to youth not being able to win in the postseason or teams that forced TOs in the reg season suddenly can't in the post season. I see the normal risk of any team can beat any team if it doesn't play well or is out coached or doesn't play with confidence or doesn't play smart.

 

[ausbacker]

I'm wondering if The Dynasty was home schooled by yokels to be honest.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Because generally speaking good quarterbacks in the playoffs play better than in the regular season and dont turn the ball over as much (there are a few exceptions). Tough to expect this young and inexperienced defense to get turnovers, they can happen but really risky to depend on them.

Do you have any empirical data to backup your assertions? I've never seen any study that shows that on average, 'good qbs' play any better in the postseason than the regular season.

Top 10 team passer ratings in 2009 regular season:

Rk Team G Pts/G TotPts Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate 
1 Minnesota Vikings  16  29.4 470  377  553  68.2  34.6  4,156  8.0  259.8  34  7  220  39.8  63  55  13  34  107.3  
2 New Orleans Saints  16  31.9 510  378  544  69.5  34.0  4,355  8.3  272.2  34  12  215  39.5  75T  58  11  20  106.0  
3 San Diego Chargers  16  28.4 454  338  519  65.1  32.4  4,338  8.7  271.1  29  10  222  42.8  81T  67  13  26  103.1  
4 Green Bay Packers  16  28.8 461  357  553  64.6  34.6  4,180  8.1  261.2  30  8  201  36.3  83T  55  17  51  101.8  
5 Pittsburgh Steelers  16  23 368  351  536  65.5  33.5  4,148  8.4  259.2  28  14  210  39.2  60T  64  14  50  98.1  
6 Dallas Cowboys  16  22.6 361  347  550  63.1  34.4  4,287  8.2  267.9  26  9  203  36.9  80T  61  17  34  97.6  
7 Houston Texans  16  24.2 388  399  593  67.3  37.1  4,654  8.1  290.9  29  17  231  39.0  72T  63  15  25  96.3  
8 New England Patriots  16  26.7 427  390  592  65.9  37.0  4,436  7.7  277.2  28  13  222  37.5  81T  43  12  18  95.6  
9 Indianapolis Colts  16  26 416  402  601  66.9  37.6  4,515  7.7  282.2  34  19  241  40.1  80T  62  8  13  95.4  
10 New York Giants  16  25.1 402  338  542  62.4  33.9  4,019  7.8  251.2  28  14  194  35.8  74T  62  12  32  93.2  
11 Philadelphia Eagles  16  26.8 429  335  553  60.6  34.6  4,089  7.9  255.6  27  13  182  32.9  71T  65  21  38  92.0  
12 Arizona Cardinals  16  23.4 375  392  594  66.0  37.1  4,016  7.1  251.0  27  18  215  36.2  45  49  3  26  89.1

Top 12 team passer ratings in the playoffs 2009:

Rk Team G Pts/G TotPts Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate 
1 Arizona Cardinals  2  32.5 65  53  69  76.8  34.5  633  9.3  316.5  5  1  33  47.8  33T  6  0  2  123.2  
2 Green Bay Packers  1  45 45  28  42  66.7  42.0  404  10.1  404.0  4  1  17  40.5  44  9  1  5  121.4  
3 New Orleans Saints  3  35.7 107  72  102  70.6  34.0  717  7.2  239.0  8  0  39  38.2  44T  6  1  2  117.0  
4 Indianapolis Colts  3  22.3 67  87  128  68.0  42.7  926  7.5  308.7  6  2  51  39.8  46  9  2  4  99.0  
5 Minnesota Vikings  2  31 62  43  70  61.4  35.0  524  7.8  262.0  5  2  28  40.0  47T  9  2  3  97.6  
6 New York Jets  3  19.3 58  42  69  60.9  23.0  577  8.5  192.3  4  2  27  39.1  80T  7  4  1  95.3  
7 Dallas Cowboys  2  18.5 37  45  70  64.3  35.0  384  6.3  192.0  2  1  23  32.9  36  3  0  8  85.5  
8 Philadelphia Eagles  1  14 14  20  39  51.3  39.0  284  7.8  284.0  2  1  13  33.3  76T  6  1  4  83.9  
9 San Diego Chargers  1  14 14  27  40  67.5  40.0  283  7.5  283.0  1  2  15  37.5  37  3  0  2  76.9  
10 Cincinnati Bengals  1  14 14  18  36  50.0  36.0  110  4.1  110.0  1  1  7  19.4  19  0  0  3  58.3  
11 New England Patriots  1  14 14  23  42  54.8  42.0  132  3.7  132.0  2  3  9  21.4  24  1  0  3  49.1  
12 Baltimore Ravens  2  18 36  24  45  53.3  22.5  217  5.0  108.5  0  3  13  28.9  27  2  0  1  39.4

But compare to 2008.

Top 12 team passer ratings in 2008 regular season:

Rk Team G Pts/G TotPts Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate 
1 San Diego Chargers  16  27.4 439  312  478  65.3  29.9  3,858  8.4  241.1  34  11  191  40.0  67  48  12  25  105.5  
2 Miami Dolphins  16  21.6 345  330  491  67.2  30.7  3,632  7.7  227.0  20  7  184  37.5  80T  39  8  26  97.6  
3 Arizona Cardinals  16  26.7 427  418  630  66.3  39.4  4,674  7.7  292.1  31  15  231  36.7  79T  54  13  28  96.1  
4 New Orleans Saints  16  28.9 463  413  636  64.9  39.8  4,977  8.0  311.1  34  18  232  36.5  84T  66  16  13  95.4  
5 Indianapolis Colts  16  23.6 377  393  585  67.2  36.6  4,094  7.1  255.9  27  12  220  37.6  75  42  7  14  94.7  
6 Green Bay Packers  16  26.2 419  343  541  63.4  33.8  3,813  7.5  238.3  28  13  182  33.6  71T  48  16  34  93.3  
7 New England Patriots  16  25.6 410  339  534  63.5  33.4  3,569  7.1  223.1  21  11  186  34.8  76T  38  6  48  89.1  
8 Houston Texans  16  22.9 366  367  555  66.1  34.7  4,267  8.1  266.7  21  20  210  37.8  65  60  12  32  88.4  
9 New York Giants  16  26.7 427  298  491  60.7  30.7  3,177  6.8  198.6  23  10  176  35.8  48  34  4  28  88.2  
10 Atlanta Falcons  16  24.4 391  265  434  61.1  27.1  3,336  7.9  208.5  16  11  157  36.2  70T  45  9  17  87.7  
11 Denver Broncos  16  23.1 370  386  620  62.3  38.8  4,471  7.3  279.4  25  18  223  36.0  93T  55  7  12  85.9  
12 Washington Redskins  16  16.6 265  318  510  62.4  31.9  3,025  6.5  189.1  14  6  165  32.4  67T  34  3  38  85.2

Top 12 team passer ratings in 2008 postseason:

Rk Team G Pts/G TotPts Comp Att Pct Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Int 1st 1st% Lng 20+ 40+ Sck Rate 
1 Arizona Cardinals  4  29.5 118  92  135  68.1  33.8  1,127  8.5  281.8  11  3  52  38.5  71T  15  6  5  112.2  
2 Pittsburgh Steelers  3  28.3 85  54  90  60.0  30.0  634  7.7  211.3  3  1  29  32.2  65T  9  4  8  90.6  
3 Indianapolis Colts  1  17 17  25  42  59.5  42.0  302  7.4  302.0  1  0  11  26.2  72T  4  1  1  90.4  
4 San Diego Chargers  2  23.5 47  41  71  57.7  35.5  465  7.4  232.5  3  2  25  35.2  62T  7  2  8  83.4  
5 Philadelphia Eagles  3  24.7 74  73  121  60.3  40.3  857  7.4  285.7  5  4  41  33.9  71T  8  5  5  83.1  
6 Atlanta Falcons  1  24 24  26  40  65.0  40.0  190  5.0  190.0  2  2  14  35.0  28  2  0  3  72.8  
7 Tennessee Titans  1  10 10  26  42  61.9  42.0  275  6.7  275.0  0  1  16  38.1  28  3  0  1  71.6  
8 Miami Dolphins  1  9 9  25  38  65.8  38.0  224  6.6  224.0  1  4  11  28.9  45  3  1  3  53.7  
9 Baltimore Ravens  3  18 54  33  75  44.0  25.0  421  5.8  140.3  1  3  18  24.0  48T  7  1  3  50.8  
10 Minnesota Vikings  1  14 14  15  35  42.9  35.0  153  4.7  153.0  0  1  9  25.7  27  1  0  1  45.4  
11 New York Giants  1  11 11  15  29  51.7  29.0  169  5.8  169.0  0  2  8  27.6  34  4  0  0  40.7  
12 Carolina Panthers  1  13 13  17  34  50.0  34.0  194  6.0  194.0  1  5  11  32.4  35  3  0  2  39.1

Of course we're talking about a much smaller sample size in the postseason. And some of the higher ranked passing teams in the regular season didn't even make it to the postseason. But from year to year it looks like it simply varies. And the number of QBs doing WORSE in the postseason seems to far outnumber the QBs that play better in the postseason. And this only makes sense since presumably they will be facing better defenses when playing playoff bound teams. I just don't see the statistical evidence to back up your generalized assertion.

Sanchez and Cassel I agree, havent done anything. Flacco beat the Patriots last year, but really hasnt had a great postseason career. I am very nervous about Manning and the Colts. I just dont have a good feeling about Manning going against this young Patriots defense in the playoffs. Roethisberger has been very successful in the postseason. I agree the Patriots are not facing the quarterbacks you named, but look at the Patriots defense they are not the '86 Bears...

Don't you mean the 85 Bears? And there's no defense like the 85 Bears anymore because Buddy Ryan's scheme, the 46 defense was figured out and rendered ineffective meaning no teams run that scheme anymore.

I was just making a point that just because a team is #1 in offense during the regular season doesnt mean that it is a guarantee it will continue. It can struggle.

Any team can struggle in the playoffs when facing tough defenses. But this year's Patriots offense has excelled against the so-called 'best defenses' the NFL has to offer. The only game that was remotely close was the Ravens. And who knows if the Pats will come up with a new gameplan to completely dominate them the second go round. We saw a similar reversal against the Jets.

The wild card with this years Patriots team is their youth and inexperience. It can happen, I am not denying it. It just comes with a great deal of risk.

You sound like a broken record. Youth and inexperience appears to be a fatal flaw in your eyes and yet this team is on the verge of 14-2 and the defense gave up 3, 7, 27, and 3 points in the past 4 games. Looks to me like the defense is showing improvement. And what it may lack in overall experience it makes up for with athleticism and speed. Not to mention they are finally looking like they are gelling as a unit. But you fail to acknowledge that. Perhaps you are receiving different images on your TV than I am.

 

[Joker]

Perhaps you are receiving different images on your TV than I am.

He is...he's tuning in from WTROLL originating on Planet Moron

 

[ausbacker]

With the regular season being completed for the Patriots what's the opinion of people on "The Worst Defense in the History of the World..."?

I have been pleasantly surprised with the development of the defense. Let's hope they can play as well throughout the playoffs as they have in general for the second half of the season.

Oh and Devin McCourty.. you rock my socks.

 

[RobertWeathers]

With the regular season being completed for the Patriots what's the opinion of people on "The Worst Defense in the History of the World..."?

I have been pleasantly surprised with the development of the defense. Let's hope they can play as well throughout the playoffs as they have in general for the second half of the season.

Oh and Devin McCourty.. you rock my socks.

Their D is good enough to win the Super Bowl.

Points Allowed Per Game of Past SB Champions
2009- Saints 21.3
2008- Pitt-13.9
2007- NYG- 21.9
2006- Indy- 22.5
2005- Pitt- 16.1
2004- Pats -16.2
2003- Pats- 14.9
2002- Bucs- 12.2
2001- Pats- 17.0
2000- BAL- 10.3

I don't know about anyone else but the trend I am seeing is that 3 of the past 4 SB champions have allowed more than 3 touchdowns a game.

 

[RayClay]

Got my fingers crossed on healthy linemen, that's for sure.

 

[Ring 6]

With the regular season being completed for the Patriots what's the opinion of people on "The Worst Defense in the History of the World..."?

I have been pleasantly surprised with the development of the defense. Let's hope they can play as well throughout the playoffs as they have in general for the second half of the season.

Oh and Devin McCourty.. you rock my socks.

It certainly is better than when this discussion started around about September
Since the middle of the season, the Patriots have allowed the 3rd fewest points in the NFL. The 2 teams ahead of them were Pitt and GB, both of whom they beat in the second half of the season.
Over the last 5 games, the have allowed THE FEWEST POINTS IN THE NFL.
I think the concept of peaking for the playoffs is one we have discussed often here, and no one has yet given credit to this team for.
Someone said (his initials are BB) that the season really starts after Thanksgiving. Since Thanksgiving, the Patriot defense has been #1 in scoring D.

 

[The Dynasty]

It certainly is better than when this discussion started around about September
Since the middle of the season, the Patriots have allowed the 3rd fewest points in the NFL. The 2 teams ahead of them were Pitt and GB, both of whom they beat in the second half of the season.
Over the last 5 games, the have allowed THE FEWEST POINTS IN THE NFL.
I think the concept of peaking for the playoffs is one we have discussed often here, and no one has yet given credit to this team for.
Someone said (his initials are BB) that the season really starts after Thanksgiving. Since Thanksgiving, the Patriot defense has been #1 in scoring D.

I will say there is a major difference between this years team and 2007's team, this team is hitting its stride going into the playoffs, the 2007 team seemed to hit its peak around week 13 or 14 and then didnt play their best football going into the playoffs.

Belichick coached teams are known for their outstanding December/January regular season records, I'd love to see how many December/first week of January games Belichick has lost in his time in NE, probably around 5. He knows how to prepare his teams more than anyone for the playoffs.

 

[Ring 6]

It certainly is better than when this discussion started around about September
Since the middle of the season, the Patriots have allowed the 3rd fewest points in the NFL. The 2 teams ahead of them were Pitt and GB, both of whom they beat in the second half of the season.
Over the last 5 games, the have allowed THE FEWEST POINTS IN THE NFL.
I think the concept of peaking for the playoffs is one we have discussed often here, and no one has yet given credit to this team for.
Someone said (his initials are BB) that the season really starts after Thanksgiving. Since Thanksgiving, the Patriot defense has been #1 in scoring D.

Of course we have also scored the most points in that timeframe as well.

 

[ausbacker]

I will say there is a major difference between this years team and 2007's team, this team is hitting its stride going into the playoffs, the 2007 team seemed to hit its peak around week 13 or 14 and then didnt play their best football going into the playoffs.

Belichick coached teams are known for their outstanding December/January regular season records, I'd love to see how many December/first week of January games Belichick has lost in his time in NE, probably around 5. He knows how to prepare his teams more than anyone for the playoffs.

The Dynasty had you posted like this earlier I doubt there would have been such hostility toward your formerly ill advised opinion. Most of us tried to argue this to you to begin with. Form + coaching = now.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I just like how teams got used to the idea that the Pats' D is nothing special early on. The original post way back when was on the right track... the media clowns are still talking about how the Pats' D is pretty crappy, but boy that offense sure is doing some stuff.

There's only one team in the league that knows exactly how much credence to give this conventional wisdom, and that's Indy. Manning's been burned too badly and too often in the past. The Pats could give up 40 points per game and he'd be studying his butt off for Patriots week.

The other guys? I'm thinking they're thinking "I'll get us our 30 points, D... you guys try to stop these monsters now and then, will ya?"

 

[ATippett56]

I will say there is a major difference between this years team and 2007's team, this team is hitting its stride going into the playoffs, the 2007 team seemed to hit its peak around week 13 or 14 and then didnt play their best football going into the playoffs.

The New England Patriots defense only forced two turnovers against the Miami Dolphins in the last game of the regular season. Funny how the Miami Dolphins only managed to score seven points.

 

[The Dynasty]

The New England Patriots defense only forced two turnovers against the Miami Dolphins in the last game of the regular season. Funny how the Miami Dolphins only managed to score seven points.

Not sure what you're implying, but if the Patriots force 2 turnovers in any playoff game, I would say they win 75%+ of the time.

 

[ausbacker]

Not sure what you're implying, but if the Patriots force 2 turnovers in any playoff game, I would say they win 75%+ of the time.

They have averaged 2.4 takeaways per game this season for an average wining percentage of 87.5%.

 

[ATippett56]

Not sure what you're implying, but if the Patriots force 2 turnovers in any playoff game, I would say they win 75%+ of the time.

According to your argument, the only way the Patriots win is if the defense forces a pile of turnovers. In the meantime, the Miami Dolphins only managed to score seven points, that's right seven points. Also, the New England Patriots defense finished eighth in points allowed for the 2010 NFL Season.

 

[The Dynasty]

According to your argument, the only way the Patriots win is if the defense forces a pile of turnovers. In the meantime, the Miami Dolphins only managed to score seven points, that's right seven points. Also, the New England Patriots defense finished eighth in points allowed for the 2010 NFL Season.

Yeah, that is part of my argument and they forced 2 yesterday. Thats forcing turnovers. You cannot really try and say that yesterdays game meant anything, the Dolphins were uninspired from the second they stepped off the plane and played their 3rd string quarterback. The Patriots did what they had to do, and did it exceptionally well, but you really cant use it for anything or use in in an argument.

 

[ausbacker]

Yeah, that is part of my argument and they forced 2 yesterday. Thats forcing turnovers. You cannot really try and say that yesterdays game meant anything, the Dolphins were uninspired from the second they stepped off the plane and played their 3rd string quarterback. The Patriots did what they had to do, and did it exceptionally well, but you really cant use it for anything or use in in an argument.

The Cleveland game isn't a cause for argument. The Patriots weren't switched on because it was a "trap" game. Seriously, do you even read what you type?