The Worst Defense in the History of the World...

[The Dynasty]

it got news for ya'...you ain't no Einstein either, pal....

Never said I was...

 

[ausbacker]

The Patriots D has not been tested in many wire to wire close games this year that they might face in the playoffs. The Ravens game is the only real true example of that, you could say last weeks game vs. the Packers was but this was against Matt Flynn. If Aaron Rodgers played, and the Pats played like they did they would have gotten smoked. The D has been give double digit leads in virtually every game this season which certainly makes playing defense a lot easier. In the playoffs you cannot expect to get a double digit lead every game.

They have forced a lot of turnovers, but then a good amount of their turnovers have been poor throws and decisions because their team is so far behind and they need to make plays quickly. This isnt saying all of the turnovers are on the opponent and not caused by the Patriots, but the huge number makes the Patriots D look a lot better than it is.

The run defense really is not great even when they are healthy. They are average, 14th in the league. A cause for concern I would say especially in the past few weeks with the injuries to the DL. They really need those guys to get back and be fully healthy for the playoffs.

I challenge you to provide an analysis of every single interception this season pointing out step by step why the throws where poor decisions and a product of the opposing QB making a bad play. If you could, I'd like to know what the play design was, how the personnel matched up, the defensive scheme employed by the Patriots, position on the field and whether or not the throw was affected by a poor route, the elements or the QB.

Secondly I'd like you to then provide a detailed analysis of interceptions where the Patriots made a positive play on an excellent throw and how the defenders simply made a play given the above criteria.

I'd also like you to go through the history of the playoffs and show me all the games where there were no double digit leads, the venue where the matches were played and the seeds of the teams.

Also can you bring up the data for run defenses for playoffs teams, their performances in the season and how that correlates to performance in the offseason.

Thanks in advance.

 

[jsull87]

I challenge you to provide an analysis of every single interception this season pointing out step by step why the throws where poor decisions and a product of the opposing QB making a bad play. If you could, I'd like to know what the play design was, how the personnel matched up, the defensive scheme employed by the Patriots, position on the field and whether or not the throw was affected by a poor route, the elements or the QB.

Secondly I'd like you to then provide a detailed analysis of interceptions where the Patriots made a positive play on an excellent throw and how the defenders simply made a play given the above criteria.

I'd also like you to go through the history of the playoffs and show me all the games where there were no double digit leads, the venue where the matches were played and the seeds of the teams.

Also can you bring up the data for run defenses for playoffs teams, their performances in the season and how that correlates to performance in the offseason.

Thanks in advance.

the problem is you can reason away so many int's and most of it just isn't true... you could say peyton's int to mccourty was a unforced error by peyton... in reality it was a great disguise by our defense. Chung's pick 6 against the phins... some will say poor throw/read/poor rout by marshal... yes but chung was there covering marshal like he should and because of that he got the pick and the points. And it's not just int turnovers. Forced fumbles you could say yeah but that RB in san diego should have known it was a backward pass... it doesn't matter ninkovich was the 1st there and made the most of it.

The problem with DYNASTY'S argument in my opinion is he points these aspects of our defense out e.g opportunism. Yet you can say that about almost every defense in the league.

He seems to dismiss alot of the plays by this d as "a result of the offense" but focus on the bad. Thats no way to form an opinion.

I am not nieve enough to think this D is the best in the league. but they are extremely good at what they do and that's make turn overs. (1st in the league)

Are there weaknesses? sure but i think you can say the same about Pit, Jets, Ravens e.t.c

 

[ausbacker]

the problem is you can reason away so many int's and most of it just isn't true... you could say peyton's int to mccourty was a unforced error by peyton... in reality it was a great disguise by our defense. Chung's pick 6 against the phins... some will say poor throw/read/poor rout by marshal... yes but chung was there covering marshal like he should and because of that he got the pick and the points. And it's not just int turnovers. Forced fumbles you could say yeah but that RB in san diego should have known it was a backward pass... it doesn't matter ninkovich was the 1st there and made the most of it.

The problem with DYNASTY'S argument in my opinion is he points these aspects of our defense out e.g opportunism. Yet you can say that about almost every defense in the league.

He seems to dismiss alot of the plays by this d as "a result of the offense" but focus on the bad. Thats no way to form an opinion.

I am not nieve enough to think this D is the best in the league. but they are extremely good at what they do and that's make turn overs. (1st in the league)

Are there weaknesses? sure but i think you can say the same about Pit, Jets, Ravens e.t.c

I'm not dropping this line of thought until I get some bona fide analysis from The Dynasty that isn't a wide spread comment with slim to no factual basis from which it is formed.

Is it to much to ask for a detailed analysis of every single Patriots forced turnover to ascertain which ones they caused and which ones were the result of apparent luck. This information can then be used to create an argument as to why it won't continue in the playoffs despite a monumental trend suggesting it can, it will and has historically.

I'm expecting an answer and it'll probably make us laugh to be frank.

 

[goheels22002]

All the bickering made me forget what this thread was about. Vince Wilfork was great in his press sighting today reminding us that a lot of guys have made plays - "name" players and recent spare parts. This defense is way better than weeks 1-6 when the stats mounted against them. These guys handled Green Bay, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and The Jest pretty well which are the sort of teams they'll see. Good to great young QBs with solid backfields and a mixed bag of receivers. Yeah, they will keep turning people over in the playoffs and giving the offense field position. If they can hold opponents in the 20 - 24 point range the Pats will win. I think they'll be better than that.

 

[ausbacker]

All the bickering made me forget what this thread was about. Vince Wilfork was great in his press sighting today reminding us that a lot of guys have made plays - "name" players and recent spare parts. This defense is way better than weeks 1-6 when the stats mounted against them. These guys handled Green Bay, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and The Jest pretty well which are the sort of teams they'll see. Good to great young QBs with solid backfields and a mixed bag of receivers. Yeah, they will keep turning people over in the playoffs and giving the offense field position. If they can hold opponents in the 20 - 24 point range the Pats will win. I think they'll be better than that.

That's the point in a nutshell goheels. Some people don't seem capable of grasping the simplest of ideas.

 

[Ring 6]

I said it was the best game the Patriots played all season.

Actually you said


The Jets had a bad game vs. the Patriots and I would say they gave up in the 2nd half, the 45 points was not the real Jets team, do you think the Pats would put up 45 on the again this year? Definitely not. The Jets do some things better than the Patriots, just like the Patriots do somethings better than the Jets. Overall, I would have to say that the Jets have a better defense than the Patriots do. You really cannot disagree with that.

What can I say to actually make you happy?

Not sure what you mean here. You are all over the page.
You misquote me, you misquote yourself, you dismiss every point that conflicts with you, and you change yours as you see fit. A little consistency would be nice.

I used to actually respect you and your posts, now after this thread I have lost all respect for your football knowledge

That is just a lame passive aggressive bail out.

 

[RayClay]

The coaches do not play in the game, preparation can only go so far. Actual experience is far more important.

You seem to take any factor and make it an immutable fact based on nothing. Yes, experience is a factor. How do teams win the first time?

New Orleans experience? 2001 Patriots experience?

Yes, they are young, so were the 1996 Patriots, probably a kickoff return from winning.

Making up your mind based on arbitrary statistics or flashy play, then giving everything you've decided as "facts" is not a decent argument.

By your "logic", the 2001 Patriots were more talented with more playoff experience than recent Super Bowl Champion Rams.

Obviously, since coaching doesn't matter much in big games.

 

[Off The Grid]

Heh!!

You see a Thread with 500 posts, and you think "Say, there must be some intriguing discussion going on."

 

[convertedpatsfan]

This is the thread that never ends,
yes it goes on and on my friend.
Some people started posting to it, not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue posting to it forever just because :singing:

Bottom line is this isn't the worst defense in the league. Despite a rough start, it's one of the upper-half defenses, and it has shown vast improvement.

We've got the greatest HC in the league. We're home for the play-offs. This is the most resilient defense we've had in a while.

Are there legit concerns? Yes.

Is it the best D in the NFL? No.

Can you win a Super Bowl with this D? Absolutely.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

This is the thread that never ends,
yes it goes on and on my friend.
Some people started posting to it, not knowing what it was,
and they'll continue posting to it forever just because :singing:

Bottom line is this isn't the worst defense in the league. Despite a rough start, it's one of the upper-half defenses, and it has shown vast improvement.

We've got the greatest HC in the league. We're home for the play-offs. This is the most resilient defense we've had in a while.

Are there legit concerns? Yes.

Is it the best D in the NFL? No.

Can you win a Super Bowl with this D? Absolutely.

The debate will never end because "best" and "worst" are subjective and everyone has a view.

The only thing you can look at is W/L and the competition.

Our all world coach stresses "situational football". Even in the beginning, the stats were bad but they were always much better in terms of situational football.

In the two losses, all three phases were bad. We have also not had any wins that were definite "despite the defense" victories.

Personally, I would not trade this defense for any defense in the league because I have yet to see a defense make as many plays when they were needed.

 

[aluminum seats]

Heh!!

You see a Thread with 500 posts, and you think "Say, there must be some intriguing discussion going on."

Seriously...the original post was good, but I was surprised to see the thread still around--so you take a look & see all this lame sniping. Ugh.

 

[The Dynasty]

Actually you said


The Jets had a bad game vs. the Patriots and I would say they gave up in the 2nd half, the 45 points was not the real Jets team, do you think the Pats would put up 45 on the again this year? Definitely not. The Jets do some things better than the Patriots, just like the Patriots do somethings better than the Jets. Overall, I would have to say that the Jets have a better defense than the Patriots do. You really cannot disagree with that.

That wasnt my only quote on that game. I did say that it was the Patriots best game of the season. You only use quotes/stats that benefit your argument and fail to look at the big picture and everything involved

 

[The Dynasty]

You seem to take any factor and make it an immutable fact based on nothing. Yes, experience is a factor. How do teams win the first time?

New Orleans experience? 2001 Patriots experience?

Yes, they are young, so were the 1996 Patriots, probably a kickoff return from winning.

Making up your mind based on arbitrary statistics or flashy play, then giving everything you've decided as "facts" is not a decent argument.

By your "logic", the 2001 Patriots were more talented with more playoff experience than recent Super Bowl Champion Rams.

Obviously, since coaching doesn't matter much in big games.

Again, you are changing what I say around a little bit to make me sound bad. I never said coaching doesnt matter, I said experience means more than coaching.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Heh!!

You see a Thread with 500 posts, and you think "Say, there must be some intriguing discussion going on."

I learned long ago that most threads more than 50 posts long have degenerated into flame wars or go back and forth between a few individuals that will ultimately never be "resolved" since neither side will be changing their minds.

What is truly refreshing on a message board is when someone in a argument actually learns something and is willing to admit it. I'm sure it happens at least 5 times a year. However, I'm not holding my breath in this thread.

 

[ausbacker]

I learned long ago that most threads more than 50 posts long have degenerated into flame wars or go back and forth between a few individuals that will ultimately never be "resolved" since neither side will be changing their minds.

What is truly refreshing on a message board is when someone in a argument actually learns something and is willing to admit it. I'm sure it happens at least 5 times a year. However, I'm not holding my breath in this thread.

The moment that happens I'll be sending a high five to the other side and complimenting him on finally making sense. Until that point arrives that won't be occurring.

 

[The Dynasty]

The moment that happens I'll be sending a high five to the other side and complimenting him on finally making sense. Until that point arrives that won't be occurring.

My main points in this thread have been that the Patriots defense may be a problem in the playoffs because of their youth and their dependence on the offense giving them a double digit lead. I have not said they have a bad defense, I have said their defense is average. Then this turned into a comparison between the Patriots and the Jets and I said that the Jets have a better defense than the Patriots. Didnt think it would turn into 50 pages worth of back and forth.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Imagine this defense next season.

We have 3 picks in the first 33 (2 will probably be on defense)

Bodden and Warren will be back.

McCourty is already called a lockdown CB and.....HE'S A ROOKIE!! This kid will be a monster in the future.

Chung/Spikes/Butler :rocker::rocker:


Offense isnt a worry as long as we have TB. A handful of us could be his weapons for a game and he'd get us in the endzone.

Belichick better coach until he's 95

 

[Ring 6]

That wasnt my only quote on that game. I did say that it was the Patriots best game of the season. You only use quotes/stats that benefit your argument and fail to look at the big picture and everything involved

Do you realize that your statement that you accuse me of is exactly what you have been doing this entire thread?

 

[Ring 6]

My main points in this thread have been that the Patriots defense may be a problem in the playoffs because of their youth and their dependence on the offense giving them a double digit lead. I have not said they have a bad defense, I have said their defense is average. Then this turned into a comparison between the Patriots and the Jets and I said that the Jets have a better defense than the Patriots. Didnt think it would turn into 50 pages worth of back and forth.

You have been the only one trying to compare the Patriots and Jets defenses.
Other teams were brought up because you said the Patriots have not shown they can hold a lead in a close game and I asked what teams had. You choose the Jets and Ravens and I pointed out there record in that area was not as good as the Patriots. You attempted to turn my pointing out areas the Patriots have outperformed the Jets into an argument about who is a better defense.
I don't know how I could be arguing who is better when I pointed out at least 4 different times that I have never stated they are better or worse.