The Worst Defense in the History of the World...

[Ring 6]

I hope no one is suggesting it's impossible for this trend to continue (I certainly don't feel this way). But, it's perfectly reasonable to be uneasy about having to rely on them. I pray that this defense continues on its path toward becoming an above average defense.

Not impossible, but the inception of this discussion was that it would be extremely unlikely to get turnovers in the playoffs. (That was proven wrong)
I don't know why relying on turnovers is any different that relying on pass rush, or 3rd down stops or anything else. Forcing turnovers is a part of playing defense. It is no more likely to stop being a strength on any given day than any other strength. (such as the Jets pass and run D when they played us)

 

[mb6592]

2)Ignoring the fact that the defense has played very well in the 2nd half and 4th quarter preventing points when the game is 'on the line', and the fact that almost every other contender has not done nearly as well in that area.

This is a point that can't be overemphasized as it confirms RayClay's point that they are just doing what is being asked of them and when it's time to step up and be more dominant they have this capablity.

 

[mb6592]

If done properly statistics are a good tool to SUPPORT the argument of what you see on the field.
They take it beyond "It is what it is because thats what I saw" which has no value in making a convincing argument.
Done improperly statistics are used to CREATE the argument, making it even more flawed.

If done properly - which is everything (as this takes into account sample sizes, relevance, accounting for all variables - none of which is going on here).

 

[mb6592]

Not impossible, but the inception of this discussion was that it would be extremely unlikely to get turnovers in the playoffs. (That was proven wrong)
I don't know why relying on turnovers is any different that relying on pass rush, or 3rd down stops or anything else. Forcing turnovers is a part of playing defense. It is no more likely to stop being a strength on any given day than any other strength. (such as the Jets pass and run D when they played us)

I here you Andy, it just seems different. But, your probably right.

 

[RayClay]

This is a point that can't be overemphasized as it confirms RayClay's point that they are just doing what is being asked of them and when it's time to step up and be more dominant they have this capablity.

Agreeing with Andy overall, without going point by point, because the argument has shifted a lot.

I would say, in comparison to some of our great veteran defenses, the idea of making a passer to throw a lot of passes by stopping the run, preventing the big play, then trying to force mistakes on certain downs isn't new and as i have demonstrated, certainly bore fruit in playoffs (Pitt) and SBs (Rams, Philly). That's enough to show turnovers do decide playoffs sometimes IMO.

What is astounding, to me, is that Rodney, Bruschi or Ty Law making that huge play is not surprising. A bunch of rooks, UDFA and second year players is.

Our current group is demonstrating amazing discipline and patience, since they must be following BB more than "making a play" as the vets could. We've been talking about big play makers a few years and bemoaning the fact we didn't have them anymore. By being great students, combined with athletic abilities, our D is making the big plays that decide games. No reason in the world they should stop now.

 

[ausbacker]

I'll forget the "apparently above your pay" because you don't know me or know what I do so you're just being an azz with this comment.

They certainly aren't the be all and end all" - you're right there. So if you admit this, there should be no reason for you to come across as a pompous azz that is somehow more enlightened that the rest of us. Stop relying on stats to show people up. Stop being a f---ing geek for crying out loud, this is football we are talking about.

You seem to be all over the place. You agree that stats aren’t the be all and end all (“Trends are great to reference” because that is there limitation – they are not factual predictions of the future). You agree that the eye test has its place. That is where we part company you employ an over reliance on stats (which may or may not support your argument since I haven’t really studied all relevant stats), where I place greater emphasis on what I see on the field from this defense. We can leave it at this or you can continue to belittle the unenlightened with your BS. Do you really think you’re more educated than others on this board? Do you care how you’re coming across?

“You can please yourself with your assessment even in light of a factual basis to construct my argument” – WTF? So your factual assessment of the statistics you reviewed is a greater predictor of what this defense will do in the playoffs than my eye test? So you should have no problem agreeing to shove those stats up your azz if your “factual basis to construct my argument” turns out not to provide the results you seem to be guaranteeing based on your statistical analysis? You see the problem with your stats?

I said, "this defense is somewhere between mostly average and, when healthy and firing on all cylinders, good." You said, “The defense has been playing well enough. I don't think they are an average group and I don't think it's an elite defense.” These sound very similar, so, why the need for all your tomfoolery?

I find it funny that you refer to me as a "pompous ass" given your position in your commentary and the fact that you invariably agree with what the statistics illustrate and the opinion of people who agree with those statistics through their own eyeball test. I do agree with some of your comments but you seems hellbent on being an internet hero so I'll just gloss over them considering they were addressed many pages ago.

What makes you interesting is that you actually agree with all of those who have taken this position given your apparent need to stroke your ego by playing the name game without actually providing any information to discredit why the defense cannot continue it's run of form in 2010.

I'm not to concerned with you mb6592. You haven't written anything solid apart from trying to plant that you're on the imaginary side of a winning argument and cast aspersions over my character because I've employed fact (all which are readily available from NFL.com) over opinion for the most part.

Good try but a failure nonetheless when you consider most of my responses were addressing an invented problem against events which haven't happened. If you were "that" smart you would have worked that out a long time ago and reserved your hostility to yourself.

 

[Ring 6]

Okay, first you are criticizing me for saying all of the Patriots flaws and hypothetically saying "what if they play their worst", but yet you are pointing out only the flaws of the Jets. You are one big hypocrite. The Jets had a bad game vs. the Patriots and I would say they gave up in the 2nd half, the 45 points was not the real Jets team, do you think the Pats would put up 45 on the again this year? Definitely not. The Jets do some things better than the Patriots, just like the Patriots do somethings better than the Jets. Overall, I would have to say that the Jets have a better defense than the Patriots do. You really cannot disagree with that.

Hey those imposters that were wearing Jets uniforms against the Pats were out there again today. Damn, that twice in 4 weeks, we need to file kidnapping charges.

 

[Joker]

IF that is a post from a Pats fan then that is the worst example of band wagon know nothing ever seen in red, white and blue.

If that is a post from an undercover Rat troll, then that post makes perfect sense.

If i had a gun to my head and HAD to choose, I'd take "Rat fan troll".I've NEVER met a Pats fan who thinks like this mutt...never.

 

[RayClay]

Hey those imposters that were wearing Jets uniforms against the Pats were out there again today. Damn, that twice in 4 weeks, we need to file kidnapping charges.

Now we're playing imposter teams. Where will it all end?

They were who we thought they were!

 

[Ring 6]

IF that is a post from a Pats fan then that is the worst example of band wagon know nothing ever seen in red, white and blue.

If that is a post from an undercover Rat troll, then that post makes perfect sense.

If i had a gun to my head and HAD to choose, I'd take "Rat fan troll".I've NEVER met a Pats fan who thinks like this mutt...never.

Aside from week 1 when the Jets allowed 10 in a loss, and we allowed 24 in a win, with 21 coming after we were ahead 31-3 we have allowed 5 fewer points than the Jets have.
We have allowd 159 points in 8 games (19.9)against teams that have winning records.
The Jets have allowed 133 in 6 games (22.2) against teams with winning records.

Lets ask The Dyansty which team he thinks can't win if their offense has a bad day now.

 

[The Dynasty]

Aside from week 1 when the Jets allowed 10 in a loss, and we allowed 24 in a win, with 21 coming after we were ahead 31-3 we have allowed 5 fewer points than the Jets have.
We have allowd 159 points in 8 games (19.9)against teams that have winning records.
The Jets have allowed 133 in 6 games (22.2) against teams with winning records.

Lets ask The Dyansty which team he thinks can't win if their offense has a bad day now.

This argument was never about whether the Jets or the Patriots would win if their offenses had bad days. You said that the Jets defense was not better than the Patriots. I disagree, but I can see where you are coming from now.

I thought the defense played very well today, it was very physical and had some big hits on the Bills wide receivers. But seriously lets be honest, the Bills are not that great, Fitzpatrick played terrible. While today was a great day for the defense, I dont know how much you can really take from it because of the opponent. The Patriots are not going to face any teams/quarterbacks like the faced today in the playoffs, and shouldnt that be what we should be concerned with? While I liked what I saw today from the defense, I still dont know if you can trust the defense in the playoffs, especially with all of the injuries on the defensive line. Can a DL that starts Love, Wilfork an Moore win in the playoffs? Doubtful. But luckily the Pats should get their starters back for the playoffs, but even then I dont know if I can trust the defense in the playoffs against a formable opponent.

 

[Joker]

This argument was never about whether the Jets or the Patriots would win if their offenses had bad days. You said that the Jets defense was not better than the Patriots. I disagree, but I can see where you are coming from now.

I thought the defense played very well today, it was very physical and had some big hits on the Bills wide receivers. But seriously lets be honest, the Bills are not that great, Fitzpatrick played terrible. While today was a great day for the defense, I dont know how much you can really take from it because of the opponent. The Patriots are not going to face any teams/quarterbacks like the faced today in the playoffs, and shouldnt that be what we should be concerned with? While I liked what I saw today from the defense, I still dont know if you can trust the defense in the playoffs, especially with all of the injuries on the defensive line. Can a DL that starts Love, Wilfork an Moore win in the playoffs? Doubtful. But luckily the Pats should get their starters back for the playoffs, but even then I dont know if I can trust the defense in the playoffs against a formable opponent.

uh...Buffalo was at home??? Hello??? Jets Insider calling...they want their rat troll back...

Jets in the playoffs...you don't trust the Pats defense against them? 45-3 ring a bell,Toe-jamysty? The Bears beat your...uh...the Jets today...put up 34 on them, I think? at home?and the Patriots allowed what??? do you even know, Mr. "Concerned" ?

We know,as we knew all along, you were here just waiting to pounce with one of your patented "I'm a Patriots fan BUT!!!" rat troll posts...and you didn't disappoint...the preceding post is absolutely THE most ridiculous piece of excrement anyone has DARED to post here in months.Keep up the trolling,Dinerspy.

 

[ausbacker]

uh...Buffalo was at home??? Hello??? Jets Insider calling...they want their rat troll back...

Jets in the playoffs...you don't trust the Pats defense against them? 45-3 ring a bell,Toe-jamysty? The Bears beat your...uh...the Jets today...put up 34 on them, I think? at home?and the Patriots allowed what??? do you even know, Mr. "Concerned" ?

We know,as we knew all along, you were here just waiting to pounce with one of your patented "I'm a Patriots fan BUT!!!" rat troll posts...and you didn't disappoint...the preceding post is absolutely THE most ridiculous piece of excrement anyone has DARED to post here in months.Keep up the trolling,Dinerspy.

It's an overwhelming response that The Dynasty is a Jets troll now isn't it. Great effort on his behalf though.

 

[The Dynasty]

It's an overwhelming response that The Dynasty is a Jets troll now isn't it. Great effort on his behalf though.

Is it considered a bad thing to compare the team you are a fan of to a rival team in their own division/conference and give an honest response?

 

[ausbacker]

Is it considered a bad thing to compare the team you are a fan of to a rival team in their own division/conference and give an honest response?

Would you prefer the Jets defense or the Patriots defense going into the post-season given the relevant performances of both down the stretch accounting for opposition too?

 

[jays52]

Is it considered a bad thing to compare the team you are a fan of to a rival team in their own division/conference and give an honest response?

At this point, it's pretty clear that the Patriots are a better defense than the Jets. 1-gap teams without the horses up front get ahniliated in the playoffs. 2-gap teams with artistic coverage schemes and playmakers win championships.

 

[Ring 6]

This argument was never about whether the Jets or the Patriots would win if their offenses had bad days. You said that the Jets defense was not better than the Patriots. I disagree, but I can see where you are coming from now.

It was about you harping on the fact that with no evidence you said the defense wasnt good enough to win if the offense had a bad day.
You still owe me an apology for calling me a liar because you still have not shown where i said either defense was better than the other.
Man up admit that, or shut up.

I thought the defense played very well today, it was very physical and had some big hits on the Bills wide receivers. But seriously lets be honest, the Bills are not that great, Fitzpatrick played terrible.

So, was he an imposter too? Do you realize that when you discuss the Patriots, you dismiss everything good and pretend you are left with an argument? We kill the Jets, it wasn't really the Jets. Today it wasnt the Patriots it was Fitzpatrick playing bad, nothing to do with the D. You do realize the Bills won 4 of their last 6 before today, and were at home right?

While today was a great day for the defense, I dont know how much you can really take from it because of the opponent. The Patriots are not going to face any teams/quarterbacks like the faced today in the playoffs, and shouldnt that be what we should be concerned with?

If they face the Jets, they will face as bad a QB.

[ quote]While I liked what I saw today from the defense, I still dont know if you can trust the defense in the playoffs, especially with all of the injuries on the defensive line.[/quote]
And what D do you trust?

Can a DL that starts Love, Wilfork an Moore win in the playoffs? Doubtful. But luckily the Pats should get their starters back for the playoffs, but even then I dont know if I can trust the defense in the playoffs against a formable opponent.

Luckily?
I will ask again, what defense can you trust? What defense is playing better? I mean they all are in your eyes because when we win a close game we sucked and when we win big we sucked but got lucky because the other team had a bad day.

 

[Ring 6]

Is it considered a bad thing to compare the team you are a fan of to a rival team in their own division/conference and give an honest response?

No it isnt. It is a bad thing to say a 45-3 win doesnt mean anything because it was the real Jets team.

 

[Ring 6]

At this point, it's pretty clear that the Patriots are a better defense than the Jets. 1-gap teams without the horses up front get ahniliated in the playoffs. 2-gap teams with artistic coverage schemes and playmakers win championships.

You might as well argue with a brick wall.
The Jets have better statistics, and when the Jets play poorly it doesnt count, because everyone knows they are better than that.
Look at his comments today. I guarantee that if I didnt post this he would go on to further diminish the Patriots performance today because the Bills just had a bad day, and then say the Jets weren't so bad, because that wasnt the real Jet D out there, you have to only consider the one that the Lions cant run on. After all, the Jets allowed less yards than we did today. If we didnt get bailed out by turnovers maybe the Bills would have scored 40???????/

 

[The Dynasty]

Would you prefer the Jets defense or the Patriots defense going into the post-season given the relevant performances of both down the stretch accounting for opposition too?

Depends. Last week the Patriots defense was a joke, this week it played very well. Last week the Jets defense played very well, today it was terrible. I would go with the Jets defense based on experience in the playoffs, and veterans that have been there.