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The Worst Defense in the History of the World...

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In 2001 I learned the lesson that while you have to make enough plays throghout the game to be in it, what separates winning teams is that they consistently play their best in the critical situations when the game is on the line.
That season it was almost uncanny that the following always happened:
If the O needed a score EITHER
a) they got it or
b) they failed but the D got it right back and they scored the next time
If the D needed a stop EITHER
a) they got it or
b) they failed but the O matched the score and the D made the stop the next time

JMT you posted some very insightful breakdowns about the D when the game was out of reach vs when it was not, and it illustrated that.
Sure, it would be great if the D stoned everyone on every drive, but ultimatley what it does when the game is actually or realistically out of reach is irrelevant (because they are playing not to lose and stats in those situations only apply to those) but stats of all situations get lumped together.
I am perfectly fine with a defense that requires the offense to at least be decent, and that lets the stats pile up in passive time as long as they are a good D when the game is on the line. So far, without any question, they have been

"they consistently play their best in the critical situations when the game is on the line."

very well said.........
 
Watching the defense play and evolve is reminiscent of watching Belichick open the playbook to Cassel in 2008 as his QB growth progressed. and trust in him grew.

The Patriots are slowly but surely opening up the playbook to the D and they're delivering.
what he said....
 
I'm sure this has been posted before, but for the contrary opinion here's football outsiders' take on how the D hasn't improved much since Cleveland...

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/dvoa-ratings/2010/week-13-dvoa-ratings

Of course, they're wired to consider how good opponents are, but not to factor in the playing-from-ahead factor. The writer's looking at the "since Cleveland" trend.

I think the trend-line to watch is very simple: does this D continue to finish games, whether it's keeping the boot on the neck of the down opponent (a la the JEST game,) or just holding onto the lead once you get it (a la the Lions game,) not letting a team continue to compete with you once you have the advantage.

In short, has this D now learned that football games are 60 minutes, not 45.

That's what I'll be watching for these next four games before the playoffs - even if we're screwing up and barely hanging on/staying close for 3 quarters, what happens in the 4th. With this offense, the Pats can light up anybody with 4 quarters of decent defense. They've just had a habit of playing 3.
 
This will considered trite, but this year BB has done his greatest job of coaching.. starting up to 5 defensive rookies on a 10-2 team is unparalled. Watching their growth is even better...
 
Welp, we all got to see what a "good day" looks like from this D. I love how the ESPN guys talk about how Tom Brady has all these weapons...

Deion Branch, Danny Woodhead, Wes Welker, Hernandez, Gronk, BJGE...

Anybody pick one of those guys in your fantasy league?

My fantasy team is Deion, Welker, Hernandez, Gronk, Brady, the Pats D and then others. I'm in the playoffs on their backs! Brady especially... he's been getting me 40+ points for a few weeks now... :rocker:
 
But the jets were only 3 for 12 on 3rd down. As I've stated somewhere, they are a ball control team, so 3rd down stops are more important, and they made them. There are lots of arbitrary landmarks and statistics that indicate how a team played in situations.

They are only to be used as part of evaluation, not the be all and end all.

I happen to think it's pretty hard to stop Peyton Manning, especially with a rookie, UDFA and a guy that was benched at CB. You stated it doesn't matter who you play, all that matters is a certain percentage of third down stops. I disagree.

I said the Pats 3rd down D played well against the Jets. This could be an indication it is getting better, it is yet to be seen.

You keep using the Colts game as an example, the Colts were 11-14 on 3rd down. The Sanders pick changed everything obviously. If he didnt make the INT, I think people would be all over the fact that the Pats were terrible on 3rd down which allowed the Colts to come back in the game. If the Pats face the Colts in the playoffs its hard to rely on Manning throwing an INT in that situation.

My whole point is the Pats cannot continue to rely on forcing turnovers to bail them out after giving up plenty of yards and fairly long drives because in the playoffs the chances of QBs turning the ball over in critical situations is slim.
 
You're quite aware that the Patriots defense has become quite adept at forcing turnovers now then? My apologies for thinking take aways were quite important to the success of a defense.

Frankly, I can't even believe that this mentality exists.

So, come playoff time you feel fine with giving up tons of yards and then hoping the Pats force a turnover to bail them out? Playoff QB's don't throw many INT's, its tough to rely solely on forcing turnovers, defenses need to learn to be successful without them. If you can force them obviously they can help.

The defense is getting better and better each week, so I have confidence that they will continue to improve and start relying less and less on the turnovers. This past week vs. the Jets was a good start, with the Pats having one of their least amount of defensive snaps all season. It would be nice to see more 3 and outs from the team and rely less and less on turnovers, because in the playoffs opposing QB's are more likely to make the Pats pay for their poor 3rd down as well as the Patriots D being gassed from being on the field too long.
 
BB has this offense clicking on all eight right now. The defense still needs some tuning up, but you had to know that this was a project for a whole season (I thought two, but am happily wrong again) and BB is showing how organized and skilled he is when it comes to developing young guys in his culture of discipline and winning. I'm not surprised- other than the speed at which this young, fast and athletic group has developed- that we find the Pats peaking in December. The offense is responsible for the 10-2 at this point, but the defense will be needed to get through the playoffs. Fortunately, this unit has already had tons of experience playing many playoff-caliber offenses and quarterbacks already.
 
You are just piling nonsense on to your argument. 17 is a lot of stops, almost 2 more 3rd down stops a game. If you didnt include Monday nights game in that it would be a lot higher because the Pats 3rd down D was actually very good last night, not what it is been all season. Could this be an indication that it is improving?, maybe so, but still after such a great performance and still being 32nd in the league shows just how poor it has been.

You are giving examples of different ways to covert on 3rd downs, by saying well if a team converts 5 3rd downs on 1 drive and then gets stopped the next 3 its fine. Yeah, it probably would be, but that isnt the case with the Pats. They have been consistently bad on 3rd down.

My argument is that the Patriots are relying too much on creating turnovers. It doesnt matter about any stat, they rely on creating turnovers too much. When you get into the playoffs, you cannot be successful because the quarterbacks in the playoffs will not turn the ball over. If the Pats are going to make a deep run in the playoffs they cannot continue to allow teams to move down the field and then hope that they can force an INT.
No you are totally missing my point.
I am puitting the one single statistic in perspective. The difference between allowing 5 3rd down conversions in an entire game vs 6 is almost irrelevant irrespecitve of other metrics. (17/12 is not 2)
I don't understand STILL how getting a turnover is a negative, and how you say the are RELYING on that. They aren't. They are using turnovers as one of the means of stopping the other team. I think if you look back you will see a high correlation between takeaways and SB champs.
Its just silly to imply turnovers are a cheap way to play defense but if we allowed 5 3rd down conversions a game instead of 6 everything would be wonderful.
 
No you are totally missing my point.
I am puitting the one single statistic in perspective. The difference between allowing 5 3rd down conversions in an entire game vs 6 is almost irrelevant irrespecitve of other metrics. (17/12 is not 2)
I don't understand STILL how getting a turnover is a negative, and how you say the are RELYING on that. They aren't. They are using turnovers as one of the means of stopping the other team. I think if you look back you will see a high correlation between takeaways and SB champs.
Its just silly to imply turnovers are a cheap way to play defense but if we allowed 5 3rd down conversions a game instead of 6 everything would be wonderful.

No, because my argument isnt strictly based on their poor 3rd down play. The defense struggles with giving up yards as well and some of this is because of their poor play on 3rd down. I understand that a lot of the yards have came in garbage time when the outcome of the game was already determined and the clock was more of the opponent rather than the offense. The Pats rely heavily on turnovers for stopping opponent drives and its not like the Pats cause a turnover on the 1st play of a drive, usually teams move the ball and then commit a turnover. I am not saying there is anything wrong with causing a turnover, or saying that a 3 and out is better than a turnover. What I am saying is the Pats cannot expect to keep getting these turnovers, especially come playoff time.
 
I think the Pats defense will get exposed for what they are in stats if we come across a team for the next month that is capable of playing a turnover-less game.

If the defense cannot force turnovers or the opposing QB is not going to throw stupid throws,this defense will be giving up chunks of yardage as it usually does,the turnovers and the mistakes the opposing offenses have done against our D are a huge reason why this team is 10-2 - There were several games where those offenses and special teams blunders practically gift wrapped us wins.

Has the Pats D forced the majority of turnovers by the opposing team or were the opposing teams just not playing heads up ball and securing the rock is the big question here?

Cleveland made few mistakes in that game and they beat this team rather handily,no team had played a better game offensively than Cleveland did in terms of near errorless play

....you can only hope a near perfect game by an offense like Cleveland did that game does not come up in January or this defense will need to stop the offense on their own terms.

We have won so far on a superb offense and a defense that has taken advantage of other teams mistakes...that needs to
continue when the games get REAL important and its do or die time

I think you miss the point of a "bend but don't break" defense which the Patriots are the master of this year. The point being that by forcing the opponents to move in smaller chunks, the opportunities for turnovers and negative plays go way up. In other words, the Patriots style of defense maximizes opportunities for turnovers which they, in fact, have gotten.

Of course if the opposition plays mistake-free football even when playing against a defense that maximizes the possibilities for mistakes, then they will have a good chance of winning. It would probably be a very good chance of winning were not their defense going up against the top-scoring offense in the NFL.

So, to get back to your primary point. The Patriots have "been exposed" for what they are already - and so has the opposition. That's why the Patriots are currently 10-2 - because they are what they are. Except that they are getting better (on defense) at what they are and the "bend but don't break" philosophy may start changing as their defensive acumen increases.

Consider the Baltimore Ravens. When crunch time came in the 4th quarter and in OT, the Patriots couldn't afford to play a "bend but don't break" defense - because that would have lost the game. So their defensive philosophy changed and - amazingly enough - they stopped the Ravens 5 possessions in a row. I'm only starting to understand how that could happen. It happened (at least in part) because they needed to change what they were doing in order to win and they did change and they were successful.

So, have faith that the best coach in the NFL does indeed have a plan for how the Patriots should play defense to win games. I expect that you would be giddy with excitement (as I am) if you knew at the start of the season that the Patriots would be 10-2 against this schedule. Yes, the awesomeness of Tom Brady and the offense has played a major role in that record. But so has the exact style of defense that BB put in place which you are so concerned about. This has been a winning style of defense for the Patriots most of the year and they have already proven that they can adapt (see Ravens game) when needed. I suggest that trusting in BB is a good thing.
 
So, come playoff time you feel fine with giving up tons of yards and then hoping the Pats force a turnover to bail them out? Playoff QB's don't throw many INT's, its tough to rely solely on forcing turnovers, defenses need to learn to be successful without them. If you can force them obviously they can help.

The defense is getting better and better each week, so I have confidence that they will continue to improve and start relying less and less on the turnovers. This past week vs. the Jets was a good start, with the Pats having one of their least amount of defensive snaps all season. It would be nice to see more 3 and outs from the team and rely less and less on turnovers, because in the playoffs opposing QB's are more likely to make the Pats pay for their poor 3rd down as well as the Patriots D being gassed from being on the field too long.
You're just repeating every reason why the Saints were going to collapse last season and had no chance to win the Superbowl. Their defense continued to force turnovers.

Would I like improvement? Of course I would. Am I becoming more confident in the defense's performances? Yes I am.

The defense has consistently begun to "make a play". I'm not going to hang on them for that.
 
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You're just repeating every reason why the Saints were going to collapse last season and had no chance to win the Superbowl. Their defense continued to force turnovers.

Would I like improvement? Of course I would. Am I becoming more confident in the defense's performances? Yes I am.

The defense has consistently begun to "make a play". I'm not going to hang on them for that.

Wrong. The Saints only had 7 INTs and 11 fumble recoveries all of the regular season last year. The Pats have 17 INTs and 5 fumble recoveries, and there are still 4 games left. So the Saints had a total of 18 turnovers, the Pats already have 23. In the postseason the Saints forced 8 turnovers. Clearly the Pats depend more on the turnover than the Saints did.

NO was 25th in total defense last year, the Pats are 31 right now. I know stats dont mean much but I am just trying to show that the Saints defense was better than the Pats defense is right now, and they did not depend on forcing turnovers as much as the Pats are now.
 
All thats a moot point.

NO ONE will throw the ball on the pats in 10 degree cold new england weather.

89% OF QBS SUCK or play worse in cold weather and that will be what gets the pats bradys 4th.

aND YOU KNOW THE SNOW GAME IS COMING.
 
Wrong. The Saints only had 7 INTs and 11 fumble recoveries all of the regular season last year. The Pats have 17 INTs and 5 fumble recoveries, and there are still 4 games left. So the Saints had a total of 18 turnovers, the Pats already have 23. In the postseason the Saints forced 8 turnovers. Clearly the Pats depend more on the turnover than the Saints did.

NO was 25th in total defense last year, the Pats are 31 right now. I know stats dont mean much but I am just trying to show that the Saints defense was better than the Pats defense is right now, and they did not depend on forcing turnovers as much as the Pats are now.
You're so so so so so so so so so wrong. The way I interpret that is the Patriots defense is better at creating turnovers and is performing to an acceptable standard to compliment the offense much like the Saints defense did (but in a different vain). It's same same but a slightly different mechanism.

What difference is there between creating a turnover and forcing a 3rd down incompletion? Unless fourth down is converted the result is the same bar field position.

All you're doing is illustrating a disposition towards putting down the defense for the bend but don't break mentality. The defense has improved dramatically since the beginning of the season.. with Pryor and Wright spending time on the sidelines too.
 
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You're so so so so so so so so so wrong. The way I interpret that is the Patriots defense is better at creating turnovers and is performing to an acceptable standard to compliment the offense much like the Saints defense did (but in a different vain). It's same same but a slightly different mechanism.

What difference is there between creating a turnover and forcing a 3rd down incompletion? Unless fourth down is converted the result is the same bar field position.

All you're doing is illustrating a disposition towards putting down the defense for the bend but don't break mentality. The defense has improved dramatically since the beginning of the season.. with Pryor and Wright spending time on the sidelines too.

The Patriots are better at creating turnovers than the Saints were, but the Saints held opponents to less yards and were the better overall defense. My whole argument is that the Pats are depending on creating turnovers too much and come playoff time these turnovers are mostly likely not going to keep happening, and instead of a turnover when the offense is driving, it will turn into points.

There is no difference between a turnover and a 3rd down stop, a turnover is actually better, but you cannot expect to get turnovers every single time. The Patriots need to focus more on getting more 3 and outs on defense and limiting their defense's time on the field because sooner or later it will catch up to them.

I am not putting down the defense by any means. I have loved watching the defense this year, they have got better and better each week. They took a big step Monday night and even held the Jets to going 3-12 on 3rd down. I am just saying in order for them to make a deep run their defense needs to rely less on turnovers and get more stops on their own because come playoff time those turnovers will become less and less.
 
The Patriots are better at creating turnovers than the Saints were, but the Saints held opponents to less yards and were the better overall defense. My whole argument is that the Pats are depending on creating turnovers too much and come playoff time these turnovers are mostly likely not going to keep happening, and instead of a turnover when the offense is driving, it will turn into points.

There is no difference between a turnover and a 3rd down stop, a turnover is actually better, but you cannot expect to get turnovers every single time. The Patriots need to focus more on getting more 3 and outs on defense and limiting their defense's time on the field because sooner or later it will catch up to them.

I am not putting down the defense by any means. I have loved watching the defense this year, they have got better and better each week. They took a big step Monday night and even held the Jets to going 3-12 on 3rd down. I am just saying in order for them to make a deep run their defense needs to rely less on turnovers and get more stops on their own because come playoff time those turnovers will become less and less.
But this is the point. The Patriots defense is doing what it takes to get done. Given the defense is creating turnovers and as you've stated there's no difference between the outcome of shutting down 3rd down to the creation of a turnover. Why extrapolate? Why assume the offense will continue to play amazing football? Nothing is ever set in stone. That's why we watch.

I'm not fussed that the mentality exists that the defense is to dependent on creating turnovers. The D has gotten the job done against the Ravens and in recent weeks the Steelers, Colts and Jets. Turnovers or not no other team has a record like that against the top sides in the NFL.

I have growing faith in the D to continue this level of play.
 
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I like the back & forth on the role of turnovers, and the notion of "depending on turnovers."

Here's the thing that's getting lost - if you have 23 turnovers in 12 games, that's two ahem, unexpected changes of possession per game. Some are symptoms of playing from big leads, and just accepting the gifts panicking quarterbacks hand you. Some indicate a difference between being capable of coverage but not ball-hawking, and being capable of both. There is a phrase that captures the phenomenon of high turnover differential - being an "opportunistic defense."

The other night against the JEST, Mayo had a catchable (interceptable) ball come his way, and he dropped it. Now, Mayo's a tackling machine, but he doesn't have the greatest hands in the world. Let's say in that situation he makes the catch 3 times out of 10. Guyton? For some reason, he's got the hands. McCourty? May as well be a receiver.

Now let's say nobody on the Pats' defense has remotely sticky hands. Let's say that instead of 23 interceptions (if that was the number) they come up with 10. Same level of panic on the part of opponents, same pressure, everything else the same, but 13 fewer int.s.

That's the basics: winning tip drills, reading QBs, etc. Then there's the question of risk assessment.

Don't get me wrong. Nobody's taking out a slide-rule and submitting a 20-page report. However, in those non-gift INTs, you do an on-the-fly risk assessment. You aren't covering the guy anymore at a certain point; you're after the ball -- sometimes in a way that gives away a score if you eff it up.

Think. Do you do this when you don't have a decent lead? Of course not. We'd have to check out McCourty's behavior game-by-game to talk about when he jumped a route or otherwise increased the risk of getting torched by going for the ball. If you have a lead, it's a moderate risk, and you're good at jumping routes, I'm thinking it's an okay risk to take.

It's certainly opportunistic.

All that to say, there are always teams any given year with a favorable takeaway number. You're ascribing it to factors beyond the defense's control. I'm saying that QBs are forced by time remaining, down, distance, and score, to make bad choices often. That's the invisible other half of creating the turnover.

The truth is somewhere in the middle. The football indeed takes funny bounces, and sometimes you just plain get lucky. But every season some teams reliably "get lucky" over and over. Often, those teams "get lucky" for multiple seasons on end.

It's funny you bring up the idea that turnovers make you reliant on another team being bad. Sacks sort of do the same thing - you're relying on an O-line being incapable of stopping the D-line, right? But you can fix your odds of getting the sack by bringing linebackers and safeties. What does that tell you? Again, it is a risk/reward assessment. IF you are good at blitzing, AND it's a reasonable risk, THEN it's a good bet to blitz often.

The key thing BB excels in is understaning that no single "trick" can carry you that far. When you play Pittsburgh or the Gintz, the "trick" is pressure. With the Gintz, I think (though maybe I'll be corrected) that's mainly the product of a tradition of drafting great pressure guys. With Pittburgh, it's a playbook full of different blitz looks.

BB might blitz all game, one game, for whatever reason. Then he might play a whole quarter with six defensive backs.

That's an advantage. You have opportunistic players, and then you have opportunistic gameplans. Whatever you're weakest at, BB will exploit.

And guess what? When you go at it that way, every game, you end up "getting lucky." It's been a while since the D has had good enough personnel for this to re-emerge, but high turnover differential was a regular feature of the 2001-2004 squads.
 
NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS beat NEW YORK JETS!

REX RYAN: You know, it’s the biggest butt whipping I’ve taken as a coach, in my career.

NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS got first place in the division for winning!

What? NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS DEFENSE is evolving!


Its funny that I might be one of the only people here young enough to understand this.
 
Okay I sure didn't get it, but I got the Mustapha Mond reference.

The future ain't what it used to be
 
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