Merged: Is BB quitting on season/fans?

[IllegalContact]

I agree, we weren't going to have Randy next year anyways, but until we see what we're getting back, it's hard to decide if it's adequate compensation. We'd basically get a 3rd if he left as a FA, so I'd like to see at least a 1st. In my dreams, the compensation includes Rice or Harvin plus a high pick, but I seriously doubt that happening.

As for when BB is wrong, he obviously makes mistakes. But I don't consider the Samuel thing a mistake considering the amount of money and how much Philly fans are learning to hate him. And by Thomas, who were you referring to? Not Adalius, right?

Toby gerhart and a draft pick

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Toby gerhart and a draft pick

A 1st rounder and I'm in I don't think Minnesota would go for that, but they do seem desperate, and Brett really lobbied hard for Moss when he was in GB. I could see him threatening to quit mid-season if they don't get Moss or similar.

 

[IllegalContact]

A 1st rounder and I'm in I don't think Minnesota would go for that, but they do seem desperate, and Brett really lobbied hard for Moss when he was in GB. I could see him threatening to quit mid-season if they don't get Moss or similar.

Forget aboyt a first rounder.......not gonna happen

 

[Steamer86]

If its for a crappy third round pick , it does not make sense.. the compensation is key... I just dont understand why now , which makes the OP make sense Belichick does not believe he has a eliete team to make the super bowl, Moss is not in our future, get rid of him now before he becomes more of a headache, i will just draft another whilhite, chad jackson, shaun crable ....

Nope - BB has not given up on season. Are you paying attention? Did you watch Randy's post game meltdown after a week one win? He's dogging it, he's crying, he is unhappy and a cancer. If BB trades him, then BB had to dump him, since he can't count on him anymore - and that is good for this year - since the cancer will only get worse. Might as well get a third and ship him out now. We are not going to win with the "crybaby, play when I want to" Moss anyways...This is who Moss is. He can be a team player when times are good (for him), but when things are not perfect for him, he goes into his postgame mode. We got 3 good years out of him - more than we could have expected.

 

[MassPats38]

I will believe this trade when I see it. With Seymour, you had a ridiculous draft pick from a crappy team, meaning a high value pick. You also had Warren, Wilfork and at the time a believable backup in Green. That, and a defense that needed some long-term changes due to age.

If this happens, you have a top-tier offense and a struggling/developing defense that needs the offense. Unless you get an immediate beneficial addition on the offense or a true difference maker on defense (ie, Adrian Petersen or Jared Allen - and that ain't gonna happen), you lose a WR who stretches the field, already have a ton of picks next year so another does not really matter, and now face double coverage on Welker, who still is not 100% (from Welker himself).

All I hear so far is media reports fueling media reports, and contradictions among those reports (e.g., reports that BB and Moss had "words" Tuesday and Shefter saying today they did not even talk Tuesday). Notions of the Miami game being some test case are absurd - if so, why didn't Moss sit out the game with an alleged illness or injury and why was he thrown to in the endzone? The offense was run heavy (32 plays to 24) because of the way the game broke due to defense and special teams. Not exactly the type of game that would be a test case for an offense without Moss.

This is fiction unless it happens and the official word comes.

 

[stcjones]

As hard as this is to fathom in many ways BB and the pats are getting value/something for moss while they still can. Rumors out now also point to moss asking for trade and I think there is a growing disconnect between BB and moss.....don't worry ....our O will be ok....

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I love how now people "would like to see how we're going to beat the Ravens" without Moss, and VCJ has us at "average" without Moss.

We have had success since '07 with the vertical-threat-opens-up-the-underneath formula. It's a pretty tried and true one. Against the 'Phins what I saw was at least one play where he went in motion and pretty much telegraphed "it's a run and I ain't blocking" so clearly I could see it from home, a dropped TD catch at the end of the first half (challenging catch of course, but still catchable ball,) and pouting about his goose-egg stat line. Now that doesn't mean he didn't make that outstanding one-handed catch the week before, and it doesn't mean he can't be an elite threat. It's just that he's not a consistent threat. When an inconsistent threat is happy being there to keep a defense honest, fine. But he's not. So in our case we want to consistently go to the inconsistent threat. Randy is better than no-Randy, but not better enough to have the drama all year. We sure don't need Brady working out his own "Randy ratio" on top of it, and at times it seems he does just that.

I am also wondering whether BB sees so many underneath weapons that he's ready to unleash something he sees, but we do not (yet,) in Brandon Tate. Got a fantasy team? Look into this kid. We don't know yet whether he's going through practices and went through camp running routes as well as Moss, feeling the field exceptionally, etc., or whether they view him as just a raw talent. Who knows...

Then there's the fact that Brady can march you down a field, not just strike deep.

Well, there are no rights and wrongs on these things for a few games at the very least.

I just don't see this as a season-ending move.

 

[BillyD123]

I think BB knows exactly what he's doing.
Remember this... Everything BB does is for the betterment of the NE Patriots.
Personally, I think this will also give Tom B. the wake up call he needs. I don't care for his Hollywood attitude this year. BB is all about "Football first" I remember when football was first with Brady. I don't think it is now.
Randy was all about Randy being first. Mankins seems to be the same way.
Just saying... That's all
You may flame away, but I think the team is better without Moss. Maybe not in the next 6 or so games. But the Moss trade will pay off.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

I think BB already knows this team doesn't have what it takes (young players and apprenticing play callers) to win this season. Even with the best receiver in the game on the roster. So, he's willing to move Moss now for a draft pick rather than lose him to free agency after the season for nothing.

 

[RodThePat]

I think BB already knows this team doesn't have what it takes (young players and apprenticing play callers) to win this season. Even with the best receiver in the game on the roster. So, he's willing to move Moss now for a draft pick rather than lose him to free agency after the season for nothing.

Belichick himself has said numerous times that you don't really know what you have in your team until the sixth game of the season. Thinking he is giving uo because he already can see we have no shot is ridiculous.

 

[IllegalContact]

I will believe this trade when I see it. With Seymour, you had a ridiculous draft pick from a crappy team, meaning a high value pick. You also had Warren, Wilfork and at the time a believable backup in Green. That, and a defense that needed some long-term changes due to age.

If this happens, you have a top-tier offense and a struggling/developing defense that needs the offense. Unless you get an immediate beneficial addition on the offense or a true difference maker on defense (ie, Adrian Petersen or Jared Allen - and that ain't gonna happen), you lose a WR who stretches the field, already have a ton of picks next year so another does not really matter, and now face double coverage on Welker, who still is not 100% (from Welker himself).

All I hear so far is media reports fueling media reports, and contradictions among those reports (e.g., reports that BB and Moss had "words" Tuesday and Shefter saying today they did not even talk Tuesday). Notions of the Miami game being some test case are absurd - if so, why didn't Moss sit out the game with an alleged illness or injury and why was he thrown to in the endzone? The offense was run heavy (32 plays to 24) because of the way the game broke due to defense and special teams. Not exactly the type of game that would be a test case for an offense without Moss.

This is fiction unless it happens and the official word comes.

how did stretching the field work in the playoffs last year?

stretching the field also means alot of 3-and-outs

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Belichick himself has said numerous times that you don't really know what you have in your team until the sixth game of the season. Thinking he is giving uo because he already can see we have no shot is ridiculous.

Belichick's been wrong before in his analysis.

You, I and him see the team for what it is .... not a serious super bowl competitive team. We are MILES away from such a team as things stand .... with or without Randy.

 

[MassPats38]

how did stretching the field work in the playoffs last year?

stretching the field also means alot of 3-and-outs

The Pats defense put the offense in passing mode against likely the best defense in the NFL. One-dimensional is bad against a team like that, and Brady didn't have Welker to dump short, assuming with that pass rush Brady had time to do even that. When your offensive line is collapsing like a house of cards, there really is no offense that works as most plays require blocking to succeed.

And you do realize teams don't win championships every year, right? A reasonable fan knows making the playoffs is an accomplishment. With Brady and Moss in '07, the team almost ran the table with a perfect season and lost on a series of freak defensive mishaps in the final game of the season. I believe Moss caught the go-ahead TD before that series if memory serves. Two years later, after Brady sat out the '08 season, the defense had changed and required more of the offense, in addition to the effects of injuries (including Brady).

And stretching the field actually helps the running game if you do not have an AP or Johnson on your roster, and the Pats do not have such a player. If this team is going back to ground and pound, who plays the role of Corey Dillon this year? If you don't move the ball 10 yards when limited to short passes and predictable runs, you suffer the same 3-and-outs.

 

[RodThePat]

Belichick's been wrong before in his analysis.

You, I and him see the team for what it is .... not a serious super bowl competitive team. We are MILES away from such a team as things stand .... with or without Randy.

We are a slight defensive improvement away from being SERIOUS contenders. The offense is arguably the best in the league (as it stands, with Moss). If we can field an adequate defense we have as good a chance as anybody. There isn't a single dominant team in the NFL.

 

[Tunescribe]

I love how now people "would like to see how we're going to beat the Ravens" without Moss, and VCJ has us at "average" without Moss.

We have had success since '07 with the vertical-threat-opens-up-the-underneath formula. It's a pretty tried and true one. Against the 'Phins what I saw was at least one play where he went in motion and pretty much telegraphed "it's a run and I ain't blocking" so clearly I could see it from home, a dropped TD catch at the end of the first half (challenging catch of course, but still catchable ball,) and pouting about his goose-egg stat line. Now that doesn't mean he didn't make that outstanding one-handed catch the week before, and it doesn't mean he can't be an elite threat. It's just that he's not a consistent threat. When an inconsistent threat is happy being there to keep a defense honest, fine. But he's not. So in our case we want to consistently go to the inconsistent threat. Randy is better than no-Randy, but not better enough to have the drama all year. We sure don't need Brady working out his own "Randy ratio" on top of it, and at times it seems he does just that.

I am also wondering whether BB sees so many underneath weapons that he's ready to unleash something he sees, but we do not (yet,) in Brandon Tate. Got a fantasy team? Look into this kid. We don't know yet whether he's going through practices and went through camp running routes as well as Moss, feeling the field exceptionally, etc., or whether they view him as just a raw talent. Who knows...

Then there's the fact that Brady can march you down a field, not just strike deep.

Well, there are no rights and wrongs on these things for a few games at the very least.

I just don't see this as a season-ending move.

Good assessment. Agreed.

 

[IllegalContact]

The Pats defense put the offense in passing mode against likely the best defense in the NFL. One-dimensional is bad against a team like that, and Brady didn't have Welker to dump short, assuming with that pass rush Brady had time to do even that. When your offensive line is collapsing like a house of cards, there really is no offense that works as most plays require blocking to succeed.

And you do realize teams don't win championships every year, right? A reasonable fan knows making the playoffs is an accomplishment. With Brady and Moss in '07, the team almost ran the table with a perfect season and lost on a series of freak defensive mishaps in the final game of the season. I believe Moss caught the go-ahead TD before that series if memory serves. Two years later, after Brady sat out the '08 season, the defense had changed and required more of the offense, in addition to the effects of injuries (including Brady).

And stretching the field actually helps the running game if you do not have an AP or Johnson on your roster, and the Pats do not have such a player. If this team is going back to ground and pound, who plays the role of Corey Dillon this year? If you don't move the ball 10 yards when limited to short passes and predictable runs, you suffer the same 3-and-outs.

and the pats weren't going to win an SB this year either while moss sulks every time he's not a part of something win or lose. come playoff time, there will always be a defense perfectly suited to stop the kind of offense the pats have or had with moss here.

 

[MassPats38]

In response to the OP, I would not see this as giving up on the season. The basic problem I see with such a trade is you give up something that most would view as an asset in exchange for something you do not really need, specifically picks (of which the Pats already have a ton). If a player has value, which Moss would appear to have by virtue of showing up in so many offensive series, then it makes the offense's job that much harder to accomplish this season by dumping him.

Brady is Brady, and he will not suddenly become a slouch without Moss, but dumping Moss would have a cascading effect on other receivers as defenses shift priorities. The only way to offset that is acquire an offensive player of immediate and equal value or a defensive player who can offset the offensive loss in terms of enhancing the defense. If Minny is in "win now" mode, it will not hurt itself with a player transaction involving a player like that so it would have to be a multi-team deal (which would be good since those are sufficiently complex that they often fail).

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Not at all.

We didn't give up after losing Ty Warren, Logan Mankins virtually, Leigh Bodden, Kevin Faulk, why give up now

 

[BillyD123]

I think BB already knows this team doesn't have what it takes (young players and apprenticing play callers) to win this season. Even with the best receiver in the game on the roster. So, he's willing to move Moss now for a draft pick rather than lose him to free agency after the season for nothing.

Was this post from 2001?

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

We are a slight defensive improvement away from being SERIOUS contenders. The offense is arguably the best in the league (as it stands, with Moss). If we can field an adequate defense we have as good a chance as anybody. There isn't a single dominant team in the NFL.

OK, then by giving Moss away BB is packing it in ..........

Either way, BB knows this team doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning the SB this year.