Tate has more receptions than Moss this year

[Ring 6]

It's an insult to say that you chose a sucky method for evaluating WRs? Duno what to tell you, then: it's the truth. Sorry if it huts your feelings. I've done a crappy job of evaluating players plenty of times, no need to get defensive about a simple observation.

Really can you read?
I said Tate has more catches than Moss.
I agreed Moss contributes more than his personal production.
I did not say Tate is more productive.
I actually did not evaluate anything.

You wrote, and I quote: "the common definition of production is what you produce, which for a WR is catching the ball." How is claiming that you equated catches with production a straw man, when you explicitly wrote it? I wasn't even inferring anything from what you wrote: took it 100% at face value.

I said it depends on how you define production, and listed the commonly held definition, which actually FAVORS Moss because he has more yards and TDs.
Why do you insist on arguing that you know what I meant but didnt write, and I dont?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Really can you read?
I said Tate has more catches than Moss.
I agreed Moss contributes more than his personal production.
I did not say Tate is more productive.
I actually did not evaluate anything.





I said it depends on how you define production, and listed the commonly held definition, which actually FAVORS Moss because he has more yards and TDs.
Why do you insist on arguing that you know what I meant but didnt write, and I dont?

You wrote: "which, for a WR, is catching the ball" in regards to "what you produce". I only commented on what you wrote, via a direct quote. If you are no longer claiming that "catching the ball" (direct quote) is how to define "what you produce" (direct quote), then we agree.

 

[Ring 6]

You wrote: "which, for a WR, is catching the ball" in regards to "what you produce". I only commented on what you wrote, via a direct quote. If you are no longer claiming that "catching the ball" (direct quote) is how to define "what you produce" (direct quote), then we agree.

I said that the common definition of production is catching the ball.
What do you think is a better description of what the commion definition of production for a WR is than the receptions, yards, and TD he produces?
Its kind of silly actually.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I said that the common definition of production is catching the ball.
What do you think is a better description of what the commion definition of production for a WR is than the receptions, yards, and TD he produces?
Its kind of silly actually.

You said that the common definition for production is what you produce, which "for a WR is catching the ball". Once again, I'm just using direct quotes. As I pointed out, there are a whole lot of other ways to evaluate a WR beyond catches, such as drawing double coverage, scoring TDs, YAC, stretching the field, etc. etc. Factors that you clearly discounted, since you said that Moss has produced "hardly anything" despite the fact that he's excellent in each and every one of these regards.

If you're going to revise what you said to claim that you were factoring in touchdowns, then how'd you come to the conclusion that a guy who's on pace for 12 touchdowns (Moss) is contributing "hardly anything"?

 

[PWRxWLF]

Holy ****! Yo, yo, yo, yoooooo. Hate to ruin this ***** fest here, but I got something crazy to tell you two. The PATS just clobbered the hell out of the Miami Dolphins, IN MIAMI, on MNF!!!!! :rocker:

You may resume.

 

[Ring 6]

You said that the common definition for production is what you produce, which "for a WR is catching the ball". Once again, I'm just using direct quotes. As I pointed out, there are a whole lot of other ways to evaluate a WR beyond catches, such as drawing double coverage, scoring TDs, YAC, stretching the field, etc. etc. Factors that you clearly discounted, since you said that Moss has produced "hardly anything" despite the fact that he's excellent in each and every one of these regards.

If you're going to revise what you said to claim that you were factoring in touchdowns, then how'd you come to the conclusion that a guy who's on pace for 12 touchdowns (Moss) is contributing "hardly anything"?

You are not understanding the definition of production.
There are certainly other ways to evaluate a WR. I wasn't evaluating a WR I was discussing production.
Moss, as I acknowledged, certainly does other things to contribute to the offense, and create production for others, but those are not a part of his own production. They are part of his effectiveness, his ability, his evaluation, his skillset, but not his PRODUCTION.

TDs is part of what he produces, they do come from catching the ball.

He has caught 9 passes this season for 139 yards and 3 TDs.
If you consider him a #1 WR that production would probably rank in the bottom few of all #1 WRs.
In Moss' case he doesnt necessarily need to produce to be effective, as we saw tonight.
Are you saying Moss has been very productive this year? I mean actual produciton the 9-139-3

 

[BradyFTW!]

You are not understanding the definition of production.
There are certainly other ways to evaluate a WR. I wasn't evaluating a WR I was discussing production.
Moss, as I acknowledged, certainly does other things to contribute to the offense, and create production for others, but those are not a part of his own production. They are part of his effectiveness, his ability, his evaluation, his skillset, but not his PRODUCTION.

TDs is part of what he produces, they do come from catching the ball.

He has caught 9 passes this season for 139 yards and 3 TDs.
If you consider him a #1 WR that production would probably rank in the bottom few of all #1 WRs.
In Moss' case he doesnt necessarily need to produce to be effective, as we saw tonight.
Are you saying Moss has been very productive this year? I mean actual produciton the 9-139-3

You just said that by the "catching the ball" standard, Moss (who is on pace for 12 TDs) contributes "hardly anything". That's clearly the opposite of what you're now acknowledging with the bolded section. You're moving the goalposts, but that's fine. At least we agree somewhat now.

As far as contribution vs. production (and now effectiveness, as of your last post), that's a whole separate debate that's kinda pointless to have and that I'm not going to waste anyone's time with. They're inherently subjective terms and they're pretty much synonymous, but if you think that it's self-evident that they have strict and separate definitions, then sure, let's go with that. It's irrelevant to what I was drawing attention to anyways. I won't even ask if you consider blocking by offensive linemen to be production or contribution

 

[Bostonian1962]

Prime example of why stats can be misleading. Is Tate a more productive player than Moss?

Prime example of stats being misleading in another way too. Pats CRUSH their division opponent, and their offense looked solid.

 

[Bostonian1962]

Holy ****! Yo, yo, yo, yoooooo. Hate to ruin this ***** fest here, but I got something crazy to tell you two. The PATS just clobbered the hell out of the Miami Dolphins, IN MIAMI, on MNF!!!!! :rocker:

You may resume.

Hilarious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RayClay]

Thats what they are doing though. You arent going to get 40 yard passes every play.
I mean we could run a Martz offense and try to get big plays every snap but then we will lead the league in turnovers and sacks like he always does.
A 5 yard pass to Welker that gets completed 90% of the time is good thing

It's great to have a safety valve like Welker, just like Bledsoe had Coates. I'm just saying, we've scored lots of points yet bogged down at crucial times when defenses keyed on Moss/Welker, or let us run and we stopped running.

We've made strides to hit big plays, like the Hernandez run catch a few weeks ago, and made an effort to use the run instead of showing it then predictably dropping it in the second half as we have been doing for years. We'll score points in bunches with our talent, but there's still no trophy for total points at the end of the year.

Great special team led win and a bye to work on things, I'd like us to go back to making defenses look tentative because we're a step ahead.

 

[Bobs My Uncle]

Great special team led win and a bye to work on things, I'd like us to go back to making defenses look tentative because we're a step ahead.

Indeed. With the weapons this offense has it should be doing the dictating .... not being reactionary.

Even in the win last night the offense wasn't impressive enough. And it'll need to be going forward because not every game we'll see defensive and ST scores like we did last night.

This offense needs to start forcing itself on opposing defenses like in the 07 season. From a player personnel perspective there is no reason it can't happen. My concern is that we don't have the play caller to maximize all of these weapons.

 

[WhiZa]

If you saw the replay on the Woodhead TD. Moss as double covered, Welker was doubled and everyone else was singled. As long as those other guys get open I'm good with it.

 

[mcsully]

Indeed. With the weapons this offense has it should be doing the dictating .... not being reactionary.

Even in the win last night the offense wasn't impressive enough. And it'll need to be going forward because not every game we'll see defensive and ST scores like we did last night.

This offense needs to start forcing itself on opposing defenses like in the 07 season. From a player personnel perspective there is no reason it can't happen. My concern is that we don't have the play caller to maximize all of these weapons.

I'm going to disagree with you and Rayclay for a minute and just look at it differently.. Yes we have the talent to dictate the pace of the game but this game was a prime example of game planning towards your opponents weakness, not your strengths..

Miami's goal was not to give up the big play, something that was mentioned many times during the night. So instead of forcing the issue, the pats took what the dolphin gave them. Yes C. Wake looks like a speed rushing demon but run at that boy and he gets lost in traffic. It was great to see a few pitch outs and runs off the tackle at him.. We had sustained drives and kept Brady clean..

This is what made the Patriots the dynasty they were.. They would adapt and change to exploit the weakness of the opponent. Every week you would see a different player or tactic/strategy being used to in the ball game.. And last night, we saw it for the 1st time in a while..

 

[Dutchmaster617]

I said earlier in the year that our team would be just as good with Moss only having 60 receptions and everyone called me an idiot.

Maybe even less, I know when he started complaining I was telling folks that Brady can do it without him. Right now Moss is a veteran presence and a defensive distraction, the young guys are taking over the production and stats and in the future Brady will be winning rings without Moss.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Doing your job = good productivity


From what I saw, Moss was almost never single covered, and he continually ran his routes hard so that the Dolphins never wavered from rolling their D toward him. He was productive last night in his role of creating huge opportunities for teammates. If he had caught the "fake spike" throw then he would have had a terrifically productive night.

 

[UofApatsfan]

We all saw them suck last year when Moss and Welker beasted. Brandon Tate is becoming one of my favorite players on the team because of how electric he is after the catch. That move he makes where he turns around, stops on a dime, breaks the defender's ankles and then bolts upfield is nasty.

 

[UofApatsfan]

Doing your job = good productivity


From what I saw, Moss was almost never single covered, and he continually ran his routes hard so that the Dolphins never wavered from rolling their D toward him. He was productive last night in his role of creating huge opportunities for teammates. If he had caught the "fake spike" throw then he would have had a terrifically productive night.

Amen. Immature Moss would get pissed about not getting the ball and stop running his routes hard. Last night he drew the attention every snap because he kept playing hard. I'm sure the Moss/New England haters were waiting for some pissed off press conference from him, and let him prove them wrong by doing his job every week and helping them win with his intangibles. Even last night Moss was one of the most valuable players on the team.

 

[Ring 6]

You just said that by the "catching the ball" standard, Moss (who is on pace for 12 TDs) contributes "hardly anything". That's clearly the opposite of what you're now acknowledging with the bolded section. You're moving the goalposts, but that's fine. At least we agree somewhat now.

As far as contribution vs. production (and now effectiveness, as of your last post), that's a whole separate debate that's kinda pointless to have and that I'm not going to waste anyone's time with. They're inherently subjective terms and they're pretty much synonymous, but if you think that it's self-evident that they have strict and separate definitions, then sure, let's go with that. It's irrelevant to what I was drawing attention to anyways. I won't even ask if you consider blocking by offensive linemen to be production or contribution

I cant help it if you want to argue a different point and pretend its the same one.
I have changed nothing in my argument. The production of a receiver is catching the football. If you were so narrow in your comprehension that you thought that meant number of receptions and TDs don't count, then you wasted a lot of posting space.
And yes, I would consider a #1 WR with annualized production at 36 cathes for less than 600 yards to be producing very little even if 12 of those ended up as TDs.
In Moss' case it is partly because he is drawing coverage and that has additional benefit to the offense.
As I said in the first response production depends on the definition. When I define it then comment on it, then add a comment that he contributes more than production, I don't understand why you are reinventing the wheel of defining the word.

 

[aluminum seats]

This is what made the Patriots the dynasty they were.. They would adapt and change to exploit the weakness of the opponent. Every week you would see a different player or tactic/strategy being used to in the ball game.. And last night, we saw it for the 1st time in a while..

Yup. Thought the same thing. Defensively as well--if it's just one game, it could of course be a fluke. But what the Pats did during the dynasty years was just win games, in a bunch of different ways. Games where the opponent would say, "man! we beat ourselves!" So yeah, if this was a sign of things to come, good times ahead.

 

[emoney_33]

It's all on tape. This team will be scary to try and defend in December/January.

I thought on the fake end around the play was designed for Moss, but pressure caused Brady to have to dump it off quickly.

What we are seeing is that, unlike last year, other guys are getting open and are becoming dependable. Moss' plays will be there, and I have no reason to believe that he won't finish the season high in yards and touchdowns as he does virtually every season of his career.