Do you want to pay Mankins big money?

[ausbacker]

Big money for a guard....ah I'll pass thanks. Thanks for your service Mankins.

From everything I read it smacks of crying over spilt milk. Real shame as he's been a good player for the Patriots.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

Where ever he goes, he will be overpaid and the pats will not miss him. hes not worth the money he will get from another team

 

[Aßßynormal]

.

Mankins is not Hannah.

The last OG we overpaid was Todd Rucci (and Max Lane as well) ........ this contributed (not completely but a lot) to the loss of Curtis Martin. THEN, Rucci was gone pretty quick after signing that contract.

Trade Mankins ......... we'll find a way to win ......... Vollmer to LT, Light to LG or just move Kaczur ....... start Larsen. Call Dr. Ruth, the Army, the Navy ..... IDC, just keep the salary structure intact. If it's not Hannah, it's not worth changing our salary structure and shaking up the locker room.

I ALWAYS favor moving a player who asks to be moved :IF: we can get some value. A pick is good enough. Just pretend he blew his knee and move on. We'll figure it out - like losing Brady and winning 11 games.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Also, what does it say to the rest of the team that we won't pay a guy going forward who we drafted, who has made the Pro Bowl twice, never missed a start, and never had any kind of off field issues?

Actually, the Patriots will pay that guy. But that guy won't accept a contract in the range of $7 million a year. What does that say about Mankins?

 

[Deus Irae]

Actually, the Patriots will pay that guy. But that guy won't accept a contract in the range of $7 million a year. What does that say about Mankins?

It says that he didn't feel the contract was acceptable, and that he feels the team lied to him. That's all it says.

 

[ausbacker]

It says that he didn't feel the contract was acceptable, and that he feels the team lied to him. That's all it says.

Keeping in line with your context quote Mankins stated he approached the Patriots brass about an extension at the end of 2008 and that was put off for the mean time. Now giving consideration to the fact that it's been reported that a contract of fair value has been put on the table and Mankins simply doesn't like it still not make sense to you? Where in that series of contextual thought can it be substantiated that the Patriots have lied to Logan Mankins?

Logan Mankins is sooking about the contract that was offered to him. He thinks he's worth more which is fine. I can't see him winning this PR battle and endearing himself to Patriot Nation and his teammates.

Randy Moss, Vince Wilfork and Leigh Bodden got paid. There's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Logan Mankins is going about it the wrong way and is fast losing all credibility.

It's a real shame as I'd like to keep him.

 

[IllegalContact]

Keeping in line with your context quote Mankins stated he approached the Patriots brass about an extension at the end of 2008 and that was put off for the mean time. Now giving consideration to the fact that it's been reported that a contract of fair value has been put on the table and Mankins simply doesn't like it still not make sense to you? Where in that series of contextual thought can it be substantiated that the Patriots have lied to Logan Mankins?

Logan Mankins is sooking about the contract that was offered to him. He thinks he's worth more which is fine. I can't see him winning this PR battle and endearing himself to Patriot Nation and his teammates.

Randy Moss, Vince Wilfork and Leigh Bodden got paid. There's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Logan Mankins is going about it the wrong way and is fast losing all credibility.

It's a real shame as I'd like to keep him.

just so we are clear, are you implying that mankins' credibility to you has any value at all?

mankins can go, I don't care, but given they have nobody to replace him with just makes the whole situation poor management. deion branch all over again. you'd figure they would at least locate a starting quality OG before letting their best OL walk

 

[Deus Irae]

Keeping in line with your context quote Mankins stated he approached the Patriots brass about an extension at the end of 2008 and that was put off for the mean time. Now giving consideration to the fact that it's been reported that a contract of fair value has been put on the table and Mankins simply doesn't like it still not make sense to you?

You're making the same assumption that so many others are, and it's a multiple part assumption:

1.) You assume that the offer really is what Breer's claimed it was, when Reiss had a different number and both are just reporting without proof.

2.) You assume that said number, with all the clauses in the contract, actually was "of fair value". None of us knows if that's true.

I'm not making those assumptions.

Where in that series of contextual thought can it be substantiated that the Patriots have lied to Logan Mankins?

I've not claimed that the Patriots lied to Mankins. I've noted that people accusing Mankins of making a bogus claim don't have evidence that supports their position.

Logan Mankins is sooking about the contract that was offered to him. He thinks he's worth more which is fine. I can't see him winning this PR battle and endearing himself to Patriot Nation and his teammates.

Patriots Nation is filled with sycophants, just like most fan bases. Players are almost always at fault in contract negotiations in the eyes of the fans. That's just the way it goes. People complain about the millionaires while letting the billionaires skate. It's an interesting dynamic, really.

Randy Moss, Vince Wilfork and Leigh Bodden got paid. There's a right way and a wrong way to go about it. Logan Mankins is going about it the wrong way and is fast losing all credibility.

Moss' camp let it be known that there was a problem. Bodden was looking elsewhere because he didn't find the initial offer acceptable. Wilfork was pissed and let that become publicly known.

It's a real shame as I'd like to keep him.

What's funny, to me, is that I'm not all that much of a Mankins backer, and yet people are acting as if I'm cracking out the knee pads for the guy just because I'm not lining up as a team shill and cracking on the player. I think he's a top level guard, but I've always felt that Neal was more important to the team because of his ability to pull on run blocks. Mankins would be a big loss to the team this year because the replacements haven't demonstrated any level of real competence, and Neal is likely to miss time which will compound the problem, but L.M.'s disastrous performance in the '07 Super Bowl remains with me and colors my opinion of him to this day. I just try not to let that interfere with taking an objective approach to situations which arise.

The large number of mistakes made last year continue to send their ripples into the pool of time. New England should have gotten the Wilfork deal done last year. Had that happened, the franchise tag could have been used on Mankins, and there would be no issue here at all. Instead, the Patriots screwed around with Wilfork and had to burn the tag. The Patriots also turned down the chance to get the Mankins deal done last year, choosing to wait and to set up this situation with all the inherent hostility that's resulted. They locked up Kaczur, but left Wilfork and Mankins dangling. :bricks:

Despite that display of incompetence by the team, the sheep/fans are all coming out to burn Mankins. It's amusing, but pathetic at the same time.

 

[ausbacker]

just so we are clear, are you implying that mankins' credibility to you has any value at all?

mankins can go, I don't care, but given they have nobody to replace him with just makes the whole situation poor management. deion branch all over again. you'd figure they would at least locate a starting quality OG before letting their best OL walk

Absolutely. If someone says something that is suspicious in nature then I start wondering what the intent and character of that person is like. There's nothing anyway to suggest that Mankins has been lied too.

Whilst the depth isn't behind him, the contract if reported as true is fair. He's not Evans and doesn't deserve to be paid accordingly.

 

[ausbacker]

Keeping in line with your context quote Mankins stated he approached the Patriots brass about an extension at the end of 2008 and that was put off for the mean time. Now giving consideration to the fact that it's been reported that a contract of fair value has been put on the table and Mankins simply doesn't like it still not make sense to you?

You're making the same assumption that so many others are, and it's a multiple part assumption:

1.) You assume that the offer really is what Breer's claimed it was, when Reiss had a different number and both are just reporting without proof.

2.) You assume that said number, with all the clauses in the contract, actually was "of fair value". None of us knows if that's true.

I'm not making those assumptions.

I've not claimed that the Patriots lied to Mankins. I've noted that people accusing Mankins of making a bogus claim don't have evidence that supports their position.

Patriots Nation is filled with sycophants, just like most fan bases. Players are almost always at fault in contract negotiations in the eyes of the fans. That's just the way it goes. People complain about the millionaires while letting the billionaires skate. It's an interesting dynamic, really.


Moss' camp let it be known that there was a problem. Bodden was looking elsewhere because he didn't find the initial offer acceptable. Wilfork was pissed and let that become publicly known.

What's funny, to me, is that I'm not all that much of a Mankins backer, and yet people are acting as if I'm cracking out the knee pads for the guy just because I'm not lining up as a team shill and cracking on the player. I think he's a top level guard, but I've always felt that Neal was more important to the team because of his ability to pull on run blocks. Mankins would be a big loss to the team this year because the replacements haven't demonstrated any level of real competence, and Neal is likely to miss time which will compound the problem, but L.M.'s disastrous performance in the '07 Super Bowl remains with me and colors my opinion of him to this day. I just try not to let that interfere with taking an objective approach to situations which arise.

The large number of mistakes made last year continue to send their ripples into the pool of time. New England should have gotten the Wilfork deal done last year. Had that happened, the franchise tag could have been used on Mankins, and there would be no issue here at all. Instead, the Patriots screwed around with Wilfork and had to burn the tag. The Patriots also turned down the chance to get the Mankins deal done last year, choosing to wait and to set up this situation with all the inherent hostility that's resulted. They locked up Kaczur, but left Wilfork and Mankins dangling. :bricks:

Despite that display of incompetence by the team, the sheep/fans are all coming out to burn Mankins. It's amusing, but pathetic at the same time.

New England have all the deals they wanted finalized done. A smooth negotiation is a strange negotiation.

How you can make comment on people making assumptions about what's been reported by multiple sources yet not hold yourself to that same high standard is quite bizarre. No assumptions are being made. I'm working from the standpoint of what his agent has said and what Mankins himself has said.

If Mankins agent Frank Bauer has categorically stated the deal hasn't gone through because it's 20% lower than Jahri Evans' 7 year 56.7 million deal.. then you do the math. The numbers stack up and make sense.

Mankins cannot support that the Patriots lied to him because they haven't. If they had lied to him there wouldn't be an offer on the table for him to complain about. You simply cannot refute that. Mankins has actually said as much himself.

As for Mankins well his Superbowl effort was diabolical. As the Patriots go you win as a team and die as a team. We had more than enough opportunities to win that game.. on both sides of the ball.

If it's only your opponents who are working from the base of assumption why does that make your position any stronger? We are all privy to the same information dependent upon our own level of interest and research into the matter.

I respect you Deus Irae but sometimes you leave me scratching my head.

 

[upstater1]

Mankins is a country boy who found himself in Yankee land and never felt comfortable.

 

[Deus Irae]

New England have all the deals they wanted finalized done. A smooth negotiation is a strange negotiation.

Given the current situation, this is clearly not the case, unless you think that the Patriots didn't want Mankins on the team this year. Looking back a few seasons, it wasn't the case with Branch or Samuel, either.

How you can make comment on people making assumptions about what's been reported by multiple sources yet not hold yourself to that same high standard is quite bizarre. No assumptions are being made. I'm working from the standpoint of what his agent has said and what Mankins himself has said.

Can't be. Mankins has said that the Patriots lied and didn't address his contract. If you were working from that standpoint, you would have to have a different take.

Also, I made no assumptions central to the discussion, so I don't see where you're getting the notion that I'm not holding myself to the same standard.

If Mankins agent Frank Bauer has categorically stated the deal hasn't gone through because it's 20% lower than Jahri Evans' 7 year 56.7 million deal.. then you do the math. The numbers stack up and make sense.

I did the math. On a calculator. Multiple times. The numbers don't match.

Evans will be averaging about $8.1m per season. 80% of that is $6.48m per season, not $7m per. I don't know if Bauer's 20% comment was meant to be exact or not, but it's what we have, and we're talking about half a million dollars per year difference.

Mankins cannot support that the Patriots lied to him because they haven't. If they had lied to him there wouldn't be an offer on the table for him to complain about. You simply cannot refute that. Mankins has actually said as much himself.

As I've noted elsewhere, if that's all it took, the Patriots could have offered a 70 year deal for the minimums, with no bonuses, and that would be considered "addressing the contract". Since that's clearly not what either side would have meant, there must be more than just an offer made for that phrase to have meaning. There has to be good faith and an understanding that the deal will be something that can be made acceptable to both parties. That's understood by those in the business of sports.

If it's only your opponents who are working from the base of assumption why does that make your position any stronger? We are all privy to the same information dependent upon our own level of interest and research into the matter.

Working from assumptions about things central to the discussion will always make one's suppositions and arguments more questionable. It's the nature of the beast. Sometimes it has to be done. That's not the case here. There was no real reason for people to go off on Mankins over this.

 

[ausbacker]

Given the current situation, this is clearly not the case, unless you think that the Patriots didn't want Mankins on the team this year. Looking back a few seasons, it wasn't the case with Branch or Samuel, either.

Can't be. Mankins has said that the Patriots lied and didn't address his contract. If you were working from that standpoint, you would have to have a different take.

Also, I made no assumptions central to the discussion, so I don't see where you're getting the notion that I'm not holding myself to the same standard.

I did the math. On a calculator. Multiple times. The numbers don't match. Breer's numbers don't even match Reiss' numbers, never mind matching Bauer's.

Evans will be averaging about $8.1m per season. 80% of that is $6.48m per season, not $7m per. I don't know if Bauer's 20% comment was meant to be exact or not, but it's what we have, and we're talking about half a million dollars per year difference.

As I've noted elsewhere, if that's all it took, the Patriots could have offered a 70 year deal for the minimums, with no bonuses, and that would be considered "addressing the contract". Since that's clearly not what either side would have meant, there must be more than just an offer made for that phrase to have meaning. There has to be good faith and an understanding that the deal will be something that can be made acceptable to both parties. That's understood by those in the business of sports.

Working from assumptions about things central to the discussion will always make one's suppositions and arguments more questionable. It's the nature of the beast. Sometimes it has to be done. That's not the case here. There was no real reason for people to go off on Mankins over this.

I expected you would reply as such. I really don't think you could be more wrong if you tried. This is the simplest of examples here.

It was reported Mankins was offered a 5 year @ 7 million = 35 million dollar deal. Evans was offered a 7 year @ 8.1 million = 56.7 million dollar deal. 56.7 - (8.1 x 2) = 40.5 million. 40.5 million @ 5 years just to break it down in simplistic terms.

When you work it out, Mankins on a yearly basis is comparatively stronger than the 20% claim of his management. It's actually a 13.6% yearly differential. So we not only have his management sensationalizing the size of the reported contract differential but we also have Logan Mankins making outrageous claims about the Patriots and multiple sources citing the contract offered to him.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Mankins doesn't like the contract that he has been presented with and we can argue about the way in which the Patriots have addressed their roster in the past 4 seasons but that doesn't change what's been done and where we sit.

Logan Mankins doesn't like the contract he has been presented with. That is it.

 

[Deus Irae]

I expected you would reply as such. I really don't think you could be more wrong if you tried. This is the simplest of examples here.

It was reported Mankins was offered a 5 year @ 7 million = 35 million dollar deal. Evans was offered a 7 year @ 8.1 million = 56.7 million dollar deal. 56.7 - (8.1 x 2) = 40.5 million. 40.5 million @ 5 years just to break it down in simplistic terms.

When you work it out, Mankins on a yearly basis is comparatively stronger than the 20% claim of his management. It's actually a 13.6% yearly differential. So we not only have his management sensationalizing the size of the reported contract differential but we also have Logan Mankins making outrageous claims about the Patriots and multiple sources citing the contract offered to him.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Mankins doesn't like the contract that he has been presented with and we can argue about the way in which the Patriots have addressed their roster in the past 4 seasons but that doesn't change what's been done and where we sit.

Logan Mankins doesn't like the contract he has been presented with. That is it.

I didn't get it wrong at all. You're missing the entire point of what I posted. The agent claimed a difference of 20% That would mean that the $7 million claim from a "league source" is not accurate, and that it's more along the lines of $6.5 million. Therefore, either it's not 20% and the agent was wrong with his number, or the offer wasn't 7 million, and Breer/source is wrong with his. It's one or the other, and we don't actually know which it is. Hell, it could be some third number, for that matter.

Let's not kid ourselves here, indeed. You don't know what's actually transpired, yet you've thrown Mankins under the bus.

 

[ausbacker]

I didn't get it wrong at all. You're missing the entire point of what I posted. The agent claimed a difference of 20% That would mean that the $7 million claim from a "league source" is not accurate, and that it's more along the lines of $6.5 million. Therefore, either it's not 20% and the agent was wrong with his number, or the offer wasn't 7 million, and Breer/source is wrong with his. It's one or the other, and we don't actually know which it is. Hell, it could be some third number, for that matter.

Let's not kid ourselves here, indeed. You don't know what's actually transpired, yet you've thrown Mankins under the bus.

Ah Deus Irae.. always defiant in the face of irrefutable circumstance. League source versus invested management.... come on. What sounds like it's more aggrieved material..... 13.6% or 20%?

I haven't thrown Mankins under a bus at all. I have questioned his standpoint given what he has said and what we know has transpired. If no contract was offered then he would be right in his assertion that the Patriots lied to him. His management has stated there has been an offer so Mankins is in fact the liar.

 

[Deus Irae]

Ah Deus Irae.. always defiant in the face of irrefutable circumstance. League source versus invested management.... come on. What sounds like it's more aggrieved material..... 13.6% or 20%?

Seriously, are you not understanding that there is a half-million dollars a year difference in what the offer would be? That's not even looking at how the contract numbers are weighted, any signing bonus issues, etc...

I haven't thrown Mankins under a bus at all. I have questioned his standpoint given what he has said and what we know has transpired. If no contract was offered then he would be right in his assertion that the Patriots lied to him. His management has stated there has been an offer so Mankins is in fact the liar.

Ummm... this post of yours IS throwing him under the bus, you do not know what has transpired, and you apparently don't understand what is meant by addressing a contract. Making a decidedly inadequate offer is NOT addressing a contract.

 

[reflexblue]

NO.....Mankins seems to think hes John Hannah, hes not, he's not even close.

 

[ausbacker]

20% in this case, obviously. Seriously, are you not understanding that there is a half-million dollars a year difference in what the offer would be? That's not even looking at how the contract numbers are weighted, any signing bonus issues, etc...

Ummm... this post of yours IS throwing him under the bus, you do not know what has transpired, and you apparently don't understand what is meant by addressing a contract. Making a decidedly inadequate offer is NOT addressing a contract.

My mistake. I forgot you were the authority on everything New England and have the ability to solve all the Patriots problems in the most objective and rational of fashion. In fact you're so level headed I cannot fathom why you don't work in football administration already. Every club would be lucky to have you.

I bemoan the day and reasoning of someone that says a reported top 5-10 guard contract in the NFL is addressed as being inadequate.

Now let me address this for you in the most simplest of terms and in bold just so you understand the gravity of your very idiotic, pig headed and quite frankly childish position.

1. The Patriots put off Mankins contract extension until after 2009 due to the uncertainty surrounding the CBA.
2. Logan Mankins believes he is worth more than the league source reported offer was.
3. Logan Mankins believes he is worth more than what the Patriots may have offered him.
4. Mankins agent has reported it's a 20% underscore from Jahri Evans 8.1 million per.
5. Simple mathematics dictates that if reported as true from the league source, that is a gross over estimation in contract difference.
6. Mankins has openly criticized the Patriots for not "giving" him the contract he wants.

You simply cannot defend that Deus Irae. I have questioned Mankins for crying over spilt milk in not being given what he wants. Well tough titties son.. people rarely get exactly what they want. Given the Patriots recent history in extending contracts, I am loathe to believe he would be so aggrieved.

Should be fun watching you try to save face on this.. or atleast attempt to spin irrefutable evidence your way Deus.

 

[Miguel]

I wish that Reiss had reported the structure of Evans' contract
$12 million signing bonus
Salaries of

2010 7000000
2011 3000000
2012 3000000
2013 7200000
2014 6800000
2015 6800000
2016 8000000

$200,000 offseason workout bonus money all 7 years
$500,000 roster bonus in the last 3 years of the contract

 

[Fencer]

You don't know what's actually transpired, yet you've thrown Mankins under the bus.

The evidence is pretty strong that Mankins has misstated what transpired. He implied there had been no serious offer from the Patriots; reality is that he just disputes the terms (and hence fairness) of the Patriots' offer.

The one who's thrown him under the bus is his agent, who leaked aspects of the Patriots' offer.