Leigh Bodden: Transition Tag?

[BillBelichickFan79]

This past season, Bodden was a better CB than Samuel.

You are basing that off stats from this website, which suggests that Bodden was a better CB than Nnamdi. It also suggests Tramon Williams was the 11th best CB in the league. How anyone can believe that is beyond me.

Stats don't show the whole story. The eye test tells me that Asante was, and still is, a better CB than Bodden.

I don't get how people think Bodden is worth 7 million per year.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't know how people can say Bodden is a better CB than Samuel after watching them both play in NE. It's not even close IMO.

Homerism, for a lot of the poeple. Different analytical angles, for others. People here were calling Samuel a top 5 or top 10 type player when he was still with New England, and were pummeling me because I dared to have him outside the top 10 at the time. But, to be fair, the board has really gotten polarized since the 2007 Super Bowl loss, and the extreme bashing of former players is much worse now than it was before.

I remember looking back on old posts some time back. There were posters that I used to be able to have great conversations with back then and are now just out of their minds with every post (To be fair, they probably view it the same way, with the "out of their minds" part reversed). That game really sent shock waves throughout Patriots Nation (and Patsfans.com), and the pre-2007 SB normalcy has never really returned.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Homerism, for a lot of the poeple. Different analytical angles, for others. People here were calling Samuel a top 5 or top 10 type player when he was still with New England, and were pummeling me because I dared to have him outside the top 10 at the time. But, to be fair, the board has really gotten polarized since the 2007 Super Bowl loss, and the extreme bashing of former players is much worse now than it was before.

I remember looking back on old posts some time back. There were posters that I used to be able to have great conversations with back then and are now just out of their minds with every post (To be fair, they probably view it the same way, with the "out of their minds" part reversed). That game really sent shock waves throughout Patriots Nation (and Patsfans.com), and the pre-2007 SB normalcy has never really returned.

I agree with you, although we seem to be in the minority here. Bodden was solid for us, but he's no Asante. If Bodden is looking for a 7 million per year deal, he can walk IMO. I'll take Butler, Wilhite, Wheatley, Springs, Arrington, and maybe a FA or draftee and take that 7 million for Bodden and use it towards fixing the pass rush problem this team has.

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree with you, although we seem to be in the minority here. Bodden was solid for us, but he's no Asante. If Bodden is looking for a 7 million per year deal, he can walk IMO. I'll take Butler, Wilhite, Wheatley, Springs, Arrington, and maybe a FA or draftee and take that 7 million for Bodden and use it towards fixing the pass rush problem this team has.

With next year being uncapped, I don't care how much money is being talked about, because it's made much less relevant. Bodden needs to return unless the team can pull in a clear and definite upgrade. That should be the lesson learned from the Hobbs trade last year. You don't let your #1 cb walk away without being sure about your replacement #1 cb and your #2 cb.

To me, it's not about where Bodden ranks in relation to the rest of the league. It's about where he ranks in relation to the rest of the CBs on the team. Unless there was something non-game related about Springs being inactive last season, he's probably not the in the team's starting plans moving forward. That means that Butler/Wilhite would be the early favorites to start next season if Bodden were to walk. I'll pass on that until I see it work in games, thanks.

I don't disagree with your assertions about Bodden. I just don't think that the team can afford to let him walk. There are too many holes to fill as it is.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

With next year being uncapped, I don't care how much money is being talked about, because it's made much less relevant. Bodden needs to return unless the team can pull in a clear and definite upgrade. That should be the lesson learned from the Hobbs trade last year. You don't let your #1 cb walk away without being sure about your replacement #1 cb and your #2 cb.

To me, it's not about where Bodden ranks in relation to the rest of the league. It's about where he ranks in relation to the rest of the CBs on the team. Unless there was something non-game related about Springs being inactive last season, he's probably not the in the team's starting plans moving forward. That means that Butler/Wilhite would be the early favorites to start next season if Bodden were to walk. I'll pass on that until I see it work in games, thanks.

I would definitely take Bodden back, but not for the price being talked about by others. He did a good job for us, but I don't think that warrants 7 million per year for 3 years or w/e.

 

[letekro]

After the 2008 season, Belichick decided that he'd get rid of his best cornerback before he could be sure that he had adequate replacements lined up for the position. The result was that Wilhite became the starter, just as he'd ended as the starter the season before, and good teams were able to pass against the Patriots pretty much whenever they needed to, just as they had the year before when the Patriots were also playing with just one starter level cornerback.

I certainly hope that Belichick has learned from that mistake.

And, according to you, he would show that he learned his lesson by overpaying for Leigh Bodden?

On an individual basis, BB's discipline with respect to paying players what he considers to be their value doesn't always work out. However, in the aggregate, it is a solid approach that created the first dynasty of the free agency era.

 

[JackBauer]

Homerism, for a lot of the poeple. Different analytical angles, for others. People here were calling Samuel a top 5 or top 10 type player when he was still with New England, and were pummeling me because I dared to have him outside the top 10 at the time. But, to be fair, the board has really gotten polarized since the 2007 Super Bowl loss, and the extreme bashing of former players is much worse now than it was before.

I remember looking back on old posts some time back. There were posters that I used to be able to have great conversations with back then and are now just out of their minds with every post (To be fair, they probably view it the same way, with the "out of their minds" part reversed). That game really sent shock waves throughout Patriots Nation (and Patsfans.com), and the pre-2007 SB normalcy has never really returned.

FWIW, I used to argue with people that Samuel was a top 5 cornerback. It is very true that people undervalued him, especially when he was on his way out the door (just like Hobbs and Seymour).

Now, he didn't play like one this season. It's merely my opinion that Bodden had a better year than did either Finnegan or Samuel.

But that doesn't mean he'll be a better player moving forward (probably less than even odds). Every player has their up and down years.

 

[JackBauer]

There are too many holes to fill as it is.

That really is the crux of the debate, and the reason why the Patriots can't afford to lose either Wilfork or Bodden.

 

[JackBauer]

You are basing that off stats from this website, which suggests that Bodden was a better CB than Nnamdi. It also suggests Tramon Williams was the 11th best CB in the league. How anyone can believe that is beyond me.

Stats don't show the whole story. The eye test tells me that Asante was, and still is, a better CB than Bodden.

I don't get how people think Bodden is worth 7 million per year.

No, I was basing it off this post:

Samuel is a gambler, that's why he gets the picks. Noting really wrong with that, but you'll give up yards (he allowed more than Bodden this year - 590) and allowed 45 of 67 (67.2%) of the passes thrown to his side to be completed. He also gave up 5 TD's.

...as well as my own observation of his relatively undisciplined game (high risk, high reward), which really manifested itself in the Eagles/Giants game, if I'm remembering correctly.

 

[Deus Irae]

And, according to you, he would show that he learned his lesson by overpaying for Leigh Bodden?

On an individual basis, BB's discipline with respect to paying players what he considers to be their value doesn't always work out. However, in the aggregate, it is a solid approach that created the first dynasty of the free agency era.

1.) Paying market value is not "overpaying" just because you claim it is. If you personally slot Bodden at, say #10 CB in the NFL, paying #10 CB money is not overpaying. I, personally, slot Bodden as #1 CB on the Patriots and, since I'm not worried about the money in this uncapped year, I've got no problem if the team has to pay him more for his services than they would have in other seasons. The necessity for doing so could have been avoided by either paying Samuel, by Keeping Hobbs and paying him (assuming he didn't suffer the same sort of injury in New England, of course), or by drafting more successfully when targeting cornerbacks since 2005.

2.) BB's discipline with respect to paying players has cost the team several top players who might have contributed to additional playoff and/or Super Bowl victories.

3.) The uncapped year allows you to frontload contracts so as to avoid issues with the salary cap should it return in the future. Just for an example, one could give Bodden a 3 year deal with payouts of 12, 6 and 3 million dollars per season, which would accomplish the $7 million goal and not have significant salary implications moving forward. I'm not saying the Patriots need to pay Bodden any particular number. I'm saying that the number needs to be all but irrelevant at this point.

 

[captain stone]

I haven't read the first 2 pages (80 posts) of the thread, so forgive me if this question has already been asked:

Why did Bill sign a younger, healthier Bodden to a one-year contract, while he signed an older, more injury-prone Shawn Springs to a 3-year (& more expensive) contract?

It seemed at the time that those 2 signings were done in Opposite Land instead of Foxborough. Still does, too.

 

[mgteich]

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY

A contract is negotiated between two parties.
A contract is negotiated between two parties.
A contract is negotiated between two parties.

The patriots would have preferred a long-term contract with Bodden.

I haven't read the first 2 pages (80 posts) of the thread, so forgive me if this question has already been asked:

Why did Bill sign a younger, healthier Bodden to a one-year contract, while he signed an older, more injury-prone Shawn Springs to a 3-year (& more expensive) contract?

It seemed at the time that those 2 signings were done in Opposite Land instead of Foxborough. Still does, too.

 

[Nonentity]

And, according to that link, Bodden is better than Asomugha. Rankings of this sort are why PFF is worse than useless a lot of the time.

I'm dragging this back from Page 2, which I would be sorry for usually, but this really does deserve a reply. Because you're being an idiot in making such a sweeping statement.


There are only a couple of defensive backs in the league that teams are genuinely scared of. Asomugha is one, hence the tiny number of targets/completions. Did you see his targets/completions ratio? It's actually pretty high because the ball only gets thrown on the receiver he's covering when he's actually beaten in coverage. If he's even in the area then QBs don't take the risk because they know he's good enough to make up the distance, Deion-style, and good enough to make the interception as well.

The others? Perhaps Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu. Maybe Revis next season. No-one else.


We can still judge the other 100 defensive backs in the league on PFF stats just fine.

 

[BritPat]

Can I just say about PFF by the way, whilst I do think some of their stats make for interesting reading and offer a decent insight, that they shouldn't be taken as Gospel.

And I wouldn't say that they indicate who's the better player either - just who's produced at whichever level given their current circumstances and opportunities.

No-one in their right mind would say Nnamdi Asoumgha is the 15th best CB in the league.

 

[captain stone]

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY

A contract is negotiated between two parties.
A contract is negotiated between two parties.
A contract is negotiated between two parties.

The patriots would have preferred a long-term contract with Bodden.

Are you saying that Bodden himself insisted on a one-year deal?

But didn't Springs still receive more money, on a per-year basis, than Bodden?

I guess my point is that I would never, ever, have valued Springs more than Bodden, and would have compensated them accordingly.

 

[captain stone]

1.) Paying market value is not "overpaying" just because you claim it is. If you personally slot Bodden at, say #10 CB in the NFL, paying #10 CB money is not overpaying. I, personally, slot Bodden as #1 CB on the Patriots and, since I'm not worried about the money in this uncapped year, I've got no problem if the team has to pay him more for his services than they would have in other seasons. The necessity for doing so could have been avoided by either paying Samuel, by Keeping Hobbs and paying him (assuming he didn't suffer the same sort of injury in New England, of course), or by drafting more successfully when targeting cornerbacks since 2005.

2.) BB's discipline with respect to paying players has cost the team several top players who might have contributed to additional playoff and/or Super Bowl victories.

3.) The uncapped year allows you to frontload contracts so as to avoid issues with the salary cap should it return in the future. Just for an example, one could give Bodden a 3 year deal with payouts of 12, 6 and 3 million dollars per season, which would accomplish the $7 million goal and not have significant salary implications moving forward. I'm not saying the Patriots need to pay Bodden any particular number. I'm saying that the number needs to be all but irrelevant at this point.

This.

Trading a servicable, young & experienced CB, and - also important, maybe moreso - one of the best KORs in football for 2 5th-rounders which eventually netted merely a short, small, lightly-regarded OG who never saw one down on the field, and a LS - albeit a good one - is just bad business.

Bill needs to keep the talent he has, and acquire the talent needed to fill other, different holes on the roster, and to stop spinning his wheels with substituting one CB for another, one DE for another, and - I hope not - one NT for another.

 

[mgteich]

Bodden obviously would have accepted a 3-year $25M deal, what the top 10 corners were getting. So, no he didn't insist on a one-year deal. But, no he had no interest in the three year deals the patriots were offering.

So, the best deal for both parties was a show-me deal. The patriots got a top corner as long as the contract was for only one year, with a provision for no franchise tag. That's what Bodden thought he could be worth. And so, the year is over. Both parties got great value. But we should be under no illusions. Bodden want serious money. He accepted a low-ball amount last year to prove himself, and now he will be paid, by someone.

Are you saying that Bodden himself insisted on a one-year deal?

But didn't Springs still receive more money, on a per-year basis, than Bodden?

I guess my point is that I would never, ever, have valued Springs more than Bodden, and would have compensated them accordingly.

 

[mgteich]

The only way we are signing Bodden for what you would call "reasonable dollars" is if the team has pictures of him doing something illegal. Bodden was our best corner by far, and would be so next year if he comes back. he will be the #1 corner for some team this year,

Sign Bodden to reasonable dollars, add pass rushing and it's a double whammy to improve the pass defense by leaps and bounds

 

[Jimke]

The only way we are signing Bodden for what you would call "reasonable dollars" is if the team has pictures of him doing something illegal. Bodden was our best corner by far, and would be so next year if he comes back. he will be the #1 corner for some team this year,

The Patriots have 4 priority re-signings: Wilfork, Mankins, Gostkowski, and

Bodden. Wilfork will be franchised, and Mankins and Gostkowsi tendered.

Bodden I fear will be lost and replaced with a player the calibre of Deltha

O'Neal or Fernando Bryant. The best chance for a re-signing is obviously

Kevin Faulk if they don't screw him completely.

 

[emoney_33]

Bodden > Samuel