A temporary fix for PI calls

[tombonneau]

Just give coach's an extra challenge and make all penalties reviewable. There are really at most 1 or 2 egregious phantom penalties at game, and this should help eliminate them. It'll never happen, but it's the optimal solution.

 

[WhiZa]

I think you can, as long as you add a more punitive "flagrant foul" to prevent flat-out tackles of the receiver.

That basketball metaphor makes a lot of sense. Some fouls happen when you are just playing your game, others are blatant holds after getting beat. Polian would never let this into the rule books.

 

[Rob0729]

Just give coach's an extra challenge and make all penalties reviewable. There are really at most 1 or 2 egregious phantom penalties at game, and this should help eliminate them. It'll never happen, but it's the optimal solution.

PI is a judgment call. It will almost never be overturned. You need indisputable evidence to overturn a play and how can you do that on a judgment call unless the call is blatantly wrong. Besides, one ref will allow a little contact down the field and another ref will call everything. Instant replay will not fix that. Instant replay will not overturn a 40 yard PI call where the call is very ticky-tack and technically the defender committed PI but 90% of the refs in the league would never call that because it was very minor contact that really didn't impare the receiver from getting the ball.

 

[Metaphors]

Refs are evaluated similiarly as you sugguest and the playoffs assignments are based on these evaluations.

Who is involved in the evalution? What criteria is used? How do the ratings for officials compare with each other?

It is all behind closed doors and just leads to even more conspiracy theories that Periera or Goodell or Polian is behind some of these officials calls. Did the official that threw the flag on the PI against the Texans get reprimanded for a blatantly bad call or congratulated for helping to continue the Colts undefeated season and associated TV ratings? Nobody knows.

Make overturned calls a part of an officials public record. Then the NFL would have no choice but to keep officials with high overturned rates out of the playoffs. The official didn't make the PI call because of what he saw. He made the call based on the script (Colts undefeated, big comeback, Manning MVP, etc) playing out in his head. If he knew that the PI call could be reviewed and (if overturned) could cost him thousands of bucks in postseason salary, I don't think he throws that flag.

 

[Metaphors]

PI is a judgment call. It will almost never be overturned. You need indisputable evidence to overturn a play and how can you do that on a judgment call unless the call is blatantly wrong. Besides, one ref will allow a little contact down the field and another ref will call everything. Instant replay will not fix that. Instant replay will not overturn a 40 yard PI call where the call is very ticky-tack and technically the defender committed PI but 90% of the refs in the league would never call that because it was very minor contact that really didn't impare the receiver from getting the ball.

It is less about overturning the calls than it is about making officials publicly accountable for game-changing bad calls. If that official's career (postseason checks, future employment) depended on not getting calls like that overturned, then he would be damn sure there was a penalty before throwing the flag.

 

[patriots pam]

How about a fine to the ref if it's determined to be a bad call? Someone might think twice about throwing a ticky-tack or erroneous flag if they know it's going to cost them say, $1,000 a pop or something if it's determined later that it was a bad or unnecessary call? I understand that they have a rating system that determines their eligibility to work post-season games, but a perhaps a little immediate financial repercussion in addition can add some extra motivation to try and get things right. Just a thought. :confused2:


My alternate suggestion is that the oppo coach gets to kick the ref in the nuts for PI calls. I'm guessing the ref would make sure it was worth his while, then!

 

[tombonneau]

PI is a judgment call. It will almost never be overturned. You need indisputable evidence to overturn a play and how can you do that on a judgment call unless the call is blatantly wrong. Besides, one ref will allow a little contact down the field and another ref will call everything. Instant replay will not fix that. Instant replay will not overturn a 40 yard PI call where the call is very ticky-tack and technically the defender committed PI but 90% of the refs in the league would never call that because it was very minor contact that really didn't impare the receiver from getting the ball.

The bold is exactly what my solution would prevent, and is really the only thing any rule change should solve. You'll never fix some refs calling games differently, but you *should* be able to fix a problem where a call is so bad the NFL has to send the team an apology letter. But you'll never solve a problem of some refs calling a game tight, others lose, etc. That is just part of sports.

 

[JSn]

I have a probably dumb question...

If a PI call is enforced, does it add the QB's passing yards as well? I mean, the contention is that the receiver would have caught the ball, no?

 

[letekro]

It is less about overturning the calls than it is about making officials publicly accountable for game-changing bad calls. If that official's career (postseason checks, future employment) depended on not getting calls like that overturned, then he would be damn sure there was a penalty before throwing the flag.

Problem is, almost all of these calls can be justified. For example, Dierdorf pointed out that the Texans CB was "holding down" Garcon's arm. Yes, it was just "hand play", yes, it had no impact on the play, yes, the ball was uncatchable anyway, but Pereira will focus on that and say that the official determined that that touching was a violation. When you have a "judgment call" there's naturally not that much accountability.

Don't forget too, that these guys are moonlighters. Sure, losing that supplemental paycheck hurts, but it's not like this is their livelihood.

 

[Rob0729]

I have a probably dumb question...

If a PI call is enforced, does it add the QB's passing yards as well? I mean, the contention is that the receiver would have caught the ball, no?

No. It is a penalty. Penalties are non-plays. Hence why they usually waive the foul when a defender commits PI and the receiver catches the ball and is downed immediately at the spot of the foul.

 

[Rob0729]

The bold is exactly what my solution would prevent, and is really the only thing any rule change should solve. You'll never fix some refs calling games differently, but you *should* be able to fix a problem where a call is so bad the NFL has to send the team an apology letter. But you'll never solve a problem of some refs calling a game tight, others lose, etc. That is just part of sports.

I disagree that any rule change should solve blatant obvious errors. I still think the PI penalty is a vastly unfair rule because it is a judgment call and no two refs call it the same and one penalty can change the outcome of the game. I think in this case, the rule should be changed because a judgment call shouldn't have nearly as much power to affect the outcome of the game.

The fact that (as you pointed out also) PI is called differently depending on who is the ref, there needs to limit the ability for one ref to call a foul that could cost a team 50 yards when no other ref would call the same play. It is as unfair as the strike zone in baseball where it changes from ump to ump and even who is pitching from the mound.

All you have to do is listen to Mike Perriera do his weekly show on NFL Network and you can see how easy it is to justify a bad PI call with some BS logic. Reviewing the play isn't going to fix the problem alone.

 

[Deus Irae]

The problem is not the rule, it's the enforcement of the rule. Changing the yardage aspect of the penalty isn't going to change anything for the better, just as changing the push-out rule hasn't made sideline plays better, changing the requirements for a catch when a player goes to the ground hasn't made that better and and 'clarifying' illegal contact beyond 5 yards hasn't made the game better. The league's not going to put the officials in position to be called out on specifics because of the need for 'respect' for the officials, so that's a pipe dream of an idea.

As is the case with almost any penalty call in the NFL, and pretty much every other professional league, the key is consistency much more than the key being the rule itself.

 

[BradyBranch39]

The Colts would just draw twice as many PI calls if they limited them to 15 yds.

 

[bakes781]

I actually think the penalty for offensive PI is worse than the defensive one. They simply replay the down and IMO the offense should lose a down.

 

[COLT FAN]

Colts have been called for 7 PI calls & 8 PI calls against their opponents

Pats have been called for 7 PI calls & 7 PI calls against their opponents


That is not counting tonight's game ; so where is the disparity ? Yes some PI calls are BS & yesterday's 50 yard PI was very ticky tacky (even as a Colts fan I admit that), but PI is a judgement call. PI is similar to travelling in Basketball ; They are going to give an extra half step to Jordon, Lebron, Kobe etc ; similarly Brady, Peyton & some others would draw the benifit of doubt when it comes to PI or Roughing the passer calls than Jamarcus Russel, Garrard etc.

 

[ForThoseAboutToRock]

The big problem I see with being able to review pass interference is whether you allow teams to challenge a lack of PI on a play. Are you going to challenge almost every play for the inevitable infractions of illegal contact >5 yards downfield?

Just give them a 15 yard penalty for PI and let that be that. 40-50 yard penalties are outrageous. If you are really insistent upon keeping some help in there for the offense, keep the aspect of the rule that any PI in the end zone results in 1st and goal from the 1 yard line. That would keep teams in the game for desperation heaves as time expires - otherwise smart defenses would just tackle anyone near the ball.

 

[brady et al fan]

Colts have been called for 7 PI calls & 8 PI calls against their opponents

Pats have been called for 7 PI calls & 7 PI calls against their opponents


That is not counting tonight's game ; so where is the disparity ? Yes some PI calls are BS & yesterday's 50 yard PI was very ticky tacky (even as a Colts fan I admit that), but PI is a judgement call. PI is similar to travelling in Basketball ; They are going to give an extra half step to Jordon, Lebron, Kobe etc ; similarly Brady, Peyton & some others would draw the benifit of doubt when it comes to PI or Roughing the passer calls than Jamarcus Russel, Garrard etc.

agreed, which adds to the motivation to change this penalty somehow. The punishment is just too severe from something that cannot be reviewed and by its very nature is highly subjective. I still think it should be reviewable but whatever.

Don't worry. We bring up Manning because he's the best opposing qb we face so we get annoyed when refs wrongly help a guy who needs very little help. I'm sure you guys harp about the Brady rule and spygate and whatever else. This thread's focus is PI in general, not Manning, ok.

 

[Metaphors]

Colts have been called for 7 PI calls & 8 PI calls against their opponents

Pats have been called for 7 PI calls & 7 PI calls against their opponents


That is not counting tonight's game ; so where is the disparity ? Yes some PI calls are BS & yesterday's 50 yard PI was very ticky tacky (even as a Colts fan I admit that), but PI is a judgement call.

Just talking about defensive pass interference, here is the tally:

@ARZ
3-1-IND 48 (1Q :21) K.Warner pass incomplete short right to L.Fitzgerald.
PENALTY on IND-F.Keiaho, Defensive Pass Interference, 6 yards, enforced at IND 48 - No Play.

SEA
3-4-IND 4 (4Q :26) S.Wallace pass incomplete short right to N.Burleson (T.Jennings).
PENALTY on IND-T.Jennings, Defensive Pass Interference, 3 yards, enforced at IND 4 - No Play.

@STL
3-16-IND 49 (4Q 3:52) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete deep middle to P.Garcon.
PENALTY on SL-O.Atogwe, Defensive Pass Interference, 43 yards, enforced at IND 49 - No Play.

HOU
3-3-50 (1Q 9:29) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete short left to R.Wayne.
PENALTY on HST-Du.Robinson, Defensive Pass Interference, 7 yards, enforced at 50 - No Play.
1-10-HST 35 (2Q 14:12) P.Manning pass incomplete short right to R.Wayne.
PENALTY on HST-D.Ryans, Defensive Pass Interference, 12 yards, enforced at HST 35 - No Play.

NE
1-10-IND 45 (2Q 5:21) P.Manning pass incomplete deep left to P.Garcon.
PENALTY on NE-L.Bodden, Defensive Pass Interference, 19 yards, enforced at IND 45 - No Play.
1-10-NE 44 (4Q 3:03) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete deep middle to A.Collie.
PENALTY on NE-D.Butler, Defensive Pass Interference, 31 yards, enforced at NE 44 - No Play.

@HOU
1-10-IND 38 (3Q 14:16) P.Manning pass incomplete short middle to P.Garcon.
PENALTY on HST-J.Reeves, Defensive Pass Interference, 43 yards, enforced at IND 38 - No Play.
3-8-HST 8 (3Q 12:54) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete short left to A.Collie.
PENALTY on HST-G.Quin, Defensive Pass Interference, 7 yards, enforced at HST 8 - No Play.
1-10-HST 35 (4Q 9:33) P.Manning pass incomplete deep left to R.Wayne.
PENALTY on HST-Du.Robinson, Defensive Pass Interference, 17 yards, enforced at HST 35 - No Play.

Colts = 2 penalties for 9 yards
Opponents = 8 penalties for 179 yards

Still looking for the disparity?

 

[TennesseePatriot]

Watch this, even the Colts defense gets the calls.

YouTube - Phantom Pass Interference Call

And from the 2006 AFC Championship.

YouTube - Patriots were robbed

 

[scroticus]

What about something along the lines of face mask penalties? Make it 15 yards for a PI... and for a flagrant PI, add another 15. 30 yards should be enough to discourage a tackle in the secondary, unless someone is obviously beaten for a TD- and at that point a DB generally wouldn't be able to make that tackle anyway.