The most impressive player in blue last night?...Darius Butler

[mayoclinic]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Pre-draft a lot of people (not me) were extremely bullish on Butler and were pushing for him to be the pick at #23. The Dolphins were rumored to be in love with him and to be considering him seriously at #25 - there were even rumors on draft day that he was a lock to Miami at #25 if he were still on the board. Then he slipped to #41 and was our 3rd pick, and he has sort of flown under the radar since draft day, especially in comparison to Patrick Chung, who has developed a bit of a cult following (no disrespect to Chung, who I think will be great for us too).

I think that Butler is without doubt the most talented CB prospect that we have had in the BB era, and can become as good as he wants. He seems to have the work ethic and attitude to push himself and learn. Whereas Chung, Brace and Vollmer were pretty much concensus 2nd round picks (or lower), Butler was probably a 1st round talent who fell to the mid 2nd round. Imagine if Miami had taken him instead of Vontae Davis at #25.

 

[reflexblue]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

I'm not sure what that means. I don't think he would come for free, but I don't think he would cost any more than what it would have cost to keep Ellis Hobbs. Probably $6-7M/year would do it. We're going to have to spend a bit of money on the CB position if we want long term stability. We have some nice young talent developing with Butler having the potential to be our best CB since Samuel and possibly Law, but I think the FO realizes that it was an error not to sign Asante long term when they could have done it for an affordable (not cheap, but affordable) amount. If Bodden looks good I look for the FO to extend him to a long term deal fairly early, which seems to be what he wants.

It means that he came here and only signed a one year contract because imo he feels he can show how good he is. If that happens i think he'll want big money. Again thats why he signed a one year deal. IF he Only wanted 6-7 million it might happen. I always try to take into account BB past history, just like he doesn't normally send a high draft pick on a LB he doesn't have a history of paying a lot for a CB. from what i can remember.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

It means that he came here and only signed a one year contract because imo he feels he can show how good he is. If that happens i think he'll want big money. Again thats why he signed a one year deal. IF he Only wanted 6-7 million it might happen. I always try to take into account BB past history, just like he doesn't normally send a high draft pick on a LB he doesn't have a history of paying a lot for a CB. from what i can remember.

Yes, and he normally doesn't draft an ILB in the 1st round, but he realized that he had a need and found the right player with Mayo in 2008. There's always exceptions to the role.

I think the FO got burned big time with the Asante Samuel contract situation. They could have signed Samuel for what would now be fairly reasonable money early on, but they let it drag out and Asante had a pro bowl year in 2006, forcing the franchise tag. Then he held out for top dollar, and the Pats have been scrambling to stabilize the secondary ever since. 2008 was proof that a JAG secondary wasn't good enough to cut it - our 3rd down and red zone defense was abysmal. I think the FO realizes that it made a mistake, and that it will have to spend some significant cash (not outrageous Scrabble-type money, but significant) on the CB position in order to achieve stability. BB went out and prioritized rebuilding the secondary this offseason, both in the draft (Butler, Chung) and in FA (resigning Sanders, McGowan, Bodden and Springs). I think the main reasons Bodden wasn't signed to a longer term deal were (1) financial constraints and (2) concerns about which year was a fluke for him, 2007 with Cleveland or 2008 with Detroit. He clearly wants a long term home and to avoid bouncing around from team to team. He stated when he arrived here that his goal was to show the Pats that he deserved a long term contract and to stay with the team. If he plays well I think the FO wil be motivited to lock him up, and I don't see him turning down a reasonable offer. JMHO.

 

[reflexblue]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Hey Mayo i hope Bodden works out and will settle for 6-7 million. But it was Bodden that wanted the one year deal not the Pats. That tells me hes looking to cash in, imo he'll want every cent he believes hes worth.

I don't know of the FO has changed, has learned. Law left (i thought 9-10 mill was crazy) and showed he could still play for a couple of more years. Then they let AS go last year, they seem to be playing hard ball with Wilfork.

So i'm not sure they've changed that much if at all.

But i'd like to see some stability at the CB position, its been a revolving door for years.

 

[mgteich]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

No disagreements from me. I suspect that if Wheatley were a UDFA, he might be in trouble competing for his roster spot. As it is, he will make the team.

It looks like the current pecking order (and presumed roster) is currently:

Bodden
Wilhite
Butler
Springs
Wheatley

Disagreements?

 

[PatsBoy12]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

It looks like the current pecking order (and presumed roster) is currently:

Bodden
Wilhite
Butler
Springs
Wheatley

Disagreements?

Not at all.

 

[mgteich]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Are you suggesting that Belichick will break the bank for Bodden when he wouldn't for Law or for Samuel? That logic makes little sense to me. Belichick has a very successful method of managing the cap. That does not include breaking the bank for veteran corners. We have Wilhite and Butler as 2010 starters, with Wheatley and Springs as the backups. That's pretty good value if you ask me. Obviously, we will have one more and I hope it is a successful Bodden. I just don't think it will be. Why would I pay $10M for an addition to an already adequate secondary. The money will be needed elsewhere.

Yes, and he normally doesn't draft an ILB in the 1st round, but he realized that he had a need and found the right player with Mayo in 2008. There's always exceptions to the role.

I think the FO got burned big time with the Asante Samuel contract situation. They could have signed Samuel for what would now be fairly reasonable money early on, but they let it drag out and Asante had a pro bowl year in 2006, forcing the franchise tag. Then he held out for top dollar, and the Pats have been scrambling to stabilize the secondary ever since. 2008 was proof that a JAG secondary wasn't good enough to cut it - our 3rd down and red zone defense was abysmal. I think the FO realizes that it made a mistake, and that it will have to spend some significant cash (not outrageous Scrabble-type money, but significant) on the CB position in order to achieve stability. BB went out and prioritized rebuilding the secondary this offseason, both in the draft (Butler, Chung) and in FA (resigning Sanders, McGowan, Bodden and Springs). I think the main reasons Bodden wasn't signed to a longer term deal were (1) financial constraints and (2) concerns about which year was a fluke for him, 2007 with Cleveland or 2008 with Detroit. He clearly wants a long term home and to avoid bouncing around from team to team. He stated when he arrived here that his goal was to show the Pats that he deserved a long term contract and to stay with the team. If he plays well I think the FO wil be motivited to lock him up, and I don't see him turning down a reasonable offer. JMHO.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Hey Mayo i hope Bodden works out and will settle for 6-7 million. But it was Bodden that wanted the one year deal not the Pats. That tells me hes looking to cash in, imo he'll want every cent he believes hes worth.

I don't know of the FO has changed, has learned. Law left (i thought 9-10 mill was crazy) and showed he could still play for a couple of more years. Then they let AS go last year, they seem to be playing hard ball with Wilfork.

So i'm not sure they've changed that much if at all.

But i'd like to see some stability at the CB position, its been a revolving door for years.

I think there's definitely a point for what you said first: Bodden outright *said* in interviews that he wanted a one year deal because he knows that he can reestablish his value this year and make a bunch more in the long run. He put his contract where his mouth was, and I think he's right: he's a very good CB.

As far as whether or not we'll resign him, if he does go out and have a very good year, I'm not so sure. I could certainly see it happening, but I also wouldn't be at all surprised if they let him walk and just take the comp. pick, which, if he has a good year, will be very valuable.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

I think Springs is getting paid a bit too much to be down that low - probably a #3 CB,I say its a battle between Butler and Wilhite to who will be starter opposite Hobbs and who will then drop into the 4th spot - Wheatley is in fifth and hoping the roster has enough room

Start opposite Hobbs? Still can't let him go? LOL. He's wearing eagles colors now, dude.

I think that Butler is without doubt the most talented CB prospect that we have had in the BB era, and can become as good as he wants. He seems to have the work ethic and attitude to push himself and learn. Whereas Chung, Brace and Vollmer were pretty much concensus 2nd round picks (or lower), Butler was probably a 1st round talent who fell to the mid 2nd round. Imagine if Miami had taken him instead of Vontae Davis at #25.

I'm ready glad that the Pats have Butler instead of Miami. He would have been a thorn in Brady's side, plus they got JT back.
I really like the Butler kid but it is far to soon to compare him to pro bowl level talents like Ty Law and Asante Samuel.
Butler's ceiling is very high though. It's going to be exciting to watch this kid develop.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Are you suggesting that Belichick will break the bank for Bodden when he wouldn't for Law or for Samuel? That logic makes little sense to me. Belichick has a very successful method of managing the cap. That does not include breaking the bank for veteran corners. We have Wilhite and Butler as 2010 starters, with Wheatley and Springs as the backups. That's pretty good value if you ask me. Obviously, we will have one more and I hope it is a successful Bodden. I just don't think it will be. Why would I pay $10M for an addition to an already adequate secondary. The money will be needed elsewhere.

No, I'm not suggesting that BB "break the bank" for Bodden or any other CB. But I am saying that there is value to having some continuity in the defensive backfield, and we won't have that by constantly paying minimum dollar to rotating incoming vets. The secondary was clearly one of the weak points of the team last year. If the FO had been more aggressive about resigning Samuel, we might not have gotten to that point. I don't see BB "breaking the bank", but I do see him willing to pay reasonable market value to Bodden if he shows signs of being a worth starting CB. Obviously, if Wilhite and Butler both progress and look like starting material that might change things, but I think the FO made a mistake with Samuel and learned from it. That's all.

 

[NEGoldenAge]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Vince Wilfork was pretty damn impessive. Guyton sure looked like he belonged out there.

 

[Run DMC]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Are you telling me that Wilhite is better than Butler? I need to see more Wilhite apparently. Butler looked fantastic last night. Finally a CB who can tackle. It's been a long time since Ty law was on the team.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Are you telling me that Wilhite is better than Butler? I need to see more Wilhite apparently. Butler looked fantastic last night. Finally a CB who can tackle. It's been a long time since Ty law was on the team.

That's what stood out to me about Butler - the dude can tackle. As BB has said, defensive players who can't tackle aren't worth much - and we've seen a bunch of them over the past few years.

I give Butler till midseason to earn a starting role. If Wilhite can play at a similar level, then we will be in very good shape.

 

[sebman2112]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

I really like the Butler kid but it is far to soon to compare him to pro bowl level talents like Ty Law and Asante Samuel.

Ty Law was an established player with five years, and a nine INT season already under his belt when BB took over as Head coach, so I wouldn't call him a "CB prospect" during the BB era. Also, your inclusion of Samuel is debatable. IE: he developed into a solid/strong CB with good ball skills, strong anticipation, and decent speed, but it took him some time in the system to develop his game, and he wasn't considered to be among the more athletically gifted CB's coming out of the draft that year. It's also widely known that Samuel spent a good amount of time working on his hands in an attempt to improve his ball skills. All his work seemed to pay off, as he turned what had previously been breakups into INT's.

 

[mayoclinic]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

I'm ready glad that the Pats have Butler instead of Miami. He would have been a thorn in Brady's side, plus they got JT back.
I really like the Butler kid but it is far to soon to compare him to pro bowl level talents like Ty Law and Asante Samuel.
Butler's ceiling is very high though. It's going to be exciting to watch this kid develop.

For what it's worth, Vontae Davis supposedly looked awful in his Miami debut. Sean Smith, who a lot of people liked for the Pats on this board, reportedly looked solid.

Miami Dolphins talking points: Vontae Davis falls flat in debut | Miami Dolphins news, training updates, injury reports, trades & more ? The Daily Dolphin blog

 

[bucky]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Are you telling me that Wilhite is better than Butler? I need to see more Wilhite apparently. Butler looked fantastic last night. Finally a CB who can tackle. It's been a long time since Ty law was on the team.

Butler did not look very good in game 1 or in the 2 practices that I saw. But he looked very good last night. Wilhite has been rock solid all camp (based on what I've seen and what's been reported ), so being consistent gives him the edge. Obviously, Butler has the higher upside if he can play consistently. But I actually think Wilhite is a solid starting CB already.

 

[Kdo5]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

wouldnt be surprised if Butler will be higher on the CB depth chart than Wheatley. Actually i get the impression Wilhite, a later round pick than Wheatley of the same year, has already done this.

Wheatley is a mini Ellis Hobbs but a little worse. Wilhite, Butler, Bodden, Springs are all above him on the Depth Chart IMO.

 

[apple strudel]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Wheatley is a mini Ellis Hobbs but a little worse.

Man, this board was in love with Wheatley before he got hurt last year. This year he's worse than Ellis Hobbs. How times change.

 

[Synovia]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

I think Springs is getting paid a bit too much to be down that low - probably a #3 CB,I say its a battle between Butler and Wilhite to who will be starter opposite Hobbs and who will then drop into the 4th spot - Wheatley is in fifth and hoping the roster has enough room

What springs is being paid won't affect where hes on the depth chart at all.


WHat hes being paid is a reflection of what they THOUGHT he was going to play, but if one of the other guys is better, that other player will play.


Theres no way in hell Wheatley gets cut. He's essentially a rookie.

 

[Synovia]

Re: The most impressive player in blue last night?..Darius Butler

Are you telling me that Wilhite is better than Butler? I need to see more Wilhite apparently. Butler looked fantastic last night. Finally a CB who can tackle. It's been a long time since Ty law was on the team.

Yes, Wilhite is much better than Butler right now. Butler looked good, but he was still getting beat early in the game when playign against the starters. Looked fantastic against the scrubs though.