Bledsoe or Cassel

[farn]

Remind me again what Cassel has done.

Here's what Cassel has done : he was the main reason the Pats went 11-5 last season. Here's what Bledsoe has done this decade : won fewer games in more attempts.

 

[Ring 6]

Certainly 'free play' in this context is misleading.
Point being the play is an example of just one of Drew's flawed decision making habits, the reason that BB would prefer even a 2nd year 6th round pick or a Cassel to Bledsoe. Decision making. Don't blow the game that 21+ other players worked hard to win.

I think that Bledsoes success also became the impetus of his failure. He was put in a position early on where he had to put the team on his shoulders. In 1994 he wasn't a 'top' QB but he threw the ball 700 times, amassed some numbers and when the team starting playing good D down the stretch, they made the playoffs. By 1996 they got to the SB because Tuna had built a good team, and Bledsoe was being deemphasized. Parcells was harsh on Bledsoe about his mistakes, and Bledsoe himself described it as hating having to play for Parcells, hating the judgment and beratings, but realized it made him better.
After Tuna left, there was no one to yell at Drew for his mistakes. The fact that he was fan and media darling and now no longer the whipping boy of the coach, IMO, had him lose focus on elliminating the mistakes. At the same time both the coaching and talent deteriorated and now, once again he felt the pressure to carry the team. His play, and the success of the team went straight downhill.
Ultimately, IMO, Bledsoe became a psychologically damaged QB.
Had Bledose been drafted by and played his whole career for, Bill Belichick the result may have been very different. I think his attitude, commitment, and drive as well as basic skills coupled with being taught the QB position at the NFL level properly would have eliinated a lot of his problems.
I think that Drew had a ton of potential, flashed it, became overrated, declined, then became a mediocre journeyman. I would have liked better for him, but it is what it is.

 

[Ring 6]

Here's what Cassel has done : he was the main reason the Pats went 11-5 last season. Here's what Bledsoe has done this decade : won fewer games in more attempts.

I dont think he was the MAIN REASON.
I think he did an adequate job.
I think if you took the other 31 starting QBs in the NFL and had put them in Cassels place, about 1/3 would have had us at 11-5, 1/3 would have had us lower, and 1/3 have had us higher.
The talent except for the QB position was certainly 11-5 caliber.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Here's what Cassel has done : he was the main reason the Pats went 11-5 last season. Here's what Bledsoe has done this decade : won fewer games in more attempts.

That's not true. But he was just a .500 QB for Dallas and Buffalo. And amazingly just 3 games over .500 in 9 seasons as a Patriot. That's what some of us bristle over when others point to empty HOF yardage stats...

 

[Ring 6]

That's not true. But he was just a .500 QB for Dallas and Buffalo. And amazingly just 3 games over .500 in 9 seasons as a Patriot. That's what some of us bristle over when others point to empty HOF yardage stats...

But I'll take 3 games over .500 the way he did it over 6 8-8 seasons and 3 9-7 seasons.
I think back then, all or nothing was great for a Pats fan, because you had a shot that we didnt have for 5 years before he arrived, but now, no.
I dont doubt that part of the divide on Bledsoe is some fans reminisce fondly making their opinon improve with time and others see the current version of the Pats and Brady and the flaws of Drew stand out more and more.

 

[farn]

I dont think he was the MAIN REASON.
I think he did an adequate job.
I think if you took the other 31 starting QBs in the NFL and had put them in Cassels place, about 1/3 would have had us at 11-5, 1/3 would have had us lower, and 1/3 have had us higher.
The talent except for the QB position was certainly 11-5 caliber.

I disagree. He wasn't the second coming of Brady, but on more than one occasion, I remember thinking to myself that Cassel was the most productive player on the field and in several games, he got the job done (Moss diving in the endzone, for one).

I'm not in love with Cassel, I'm glad they moved him and got a 2nd round pick for a guy some (including Reiss) thought would struggle to be in the top 53...

This decade, he had a successful season (with NE) and Bledoe hasn't. I'm not arguing Cassel had a better career... not enough close... BUT, I do not think every QB in the league would've finished 11-5. In fact, I think at least half of the starting QBs in the league would NOT have finished 11-5 or better.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I think that Bledsoes success also became the impetus of his failure. He was put in a position early on where he had to put the team on his shoulders. In 1994 he wasn't a 'top' QB but he threw the ball 700 times, amassed some numbers and when the team starting playing good D down the stretch, they made the playoffs. By 1996 they got to the SB because Tuna had built a good team, and Bledsoe was being deemphasized. Parcells was harsh on Bledsoe about his mistakes, and Bledsoe himself described it as hating having to play for Parcells, hating the judgment and beratings, but realized it made him better.
After Tuna left, there was no one to yell at Drew for his mistakes. The fact that he was fan and media darling and now no longer the whipping boy of the coach, IMO, had him lose focus on elliminating the mistakes. At the same time both the coaching and talent deteriorated and now, once again he felt the pressure to carry the team. His play, and the success of the team went straight downhill.
Ultimately, IMO, Bledsoe became a psychologically damaged QB.
Had Bledose been drafted by and played his whole career for, Bill Belichick the result may have been very different. I think his attitude, commitment, and drive as well as basic skills coupled with being taught the QB position at the NFL level properly would have eliinated a lot of his problems.
I think that Drew had a ton of potential, flashed it, became overrated, declined, then became a mediocre journeyman. I would have liked better for him, but it is what it is.

Reasonable conjecture.

I saw Drew's first games and I could tell that he was something special (not hard to discern as the #1 NFL pick). It was clear that he had the physical tools. Intelligent and capable of learning an offense, there were always areas of his game that weren't practised enough. Remember the runing jokes about how Drew could not throw the screen pass as balls sailed over the outstreched hands of the receivers?

He was instrumental in geting the franchise to the '96 SB, but that was his career pinacle. Once Parcells & Belichick went to the hated Jets, they set the template for opposing coaches to counter Drew's talents and it was all downhill except for one brief 1st half of the 2002 season with Buffalo. I watched his last series in Dallas where The Tuner finally had enough.

Drew was smart enough to retire early and healthy rather than play the game of starting QB of the year with various troubled franchises. He apparently values family over another paltry (heh) 8 figures and has since kept himself occupied in several ventures. I respect his approach to family and life greatly.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

The talent except for the QB position was certainly 11-5 caliber.

The talent we had at the begining of the season or the talent we had at the end of the season. Brady wasn't the only one to go on IR.

 

[Ring 6]

The talent we had at the begining of the season or the talent we had at the end of the season. Brady wasn't the only one to go on IR.

all of the above

 

[farn]

...and I liked our 08 team, but the D had problems (3rd down, red zone...) and would have struggled to finish over 11-5 with most QBs. Brady would've hidden some of the deficiencies with spectacular play.

 

[farn]

all of the above

I dunno... I remember Seau & Rosie in there (doing a solid job, but...) at the end of the season.

 

[Ring 6]

I disagree. He wasn't the second coming of Brady, but on more than one occasion, I remember thinking to myself that Cassel was the most productive player on the field and in several games, he got the job done (Moss diving in the endzone, for one).

I'm not in love with Cassel, I'm glad they moved him and got a 2nd round pick for a guy some (including Reiss) thought would struggle to be in the top 53...

This decade, he had a successful season (with NE) and Bledoe hasn't. I'm not arguing Cassel had a better career... not enough close... BUT, I do not think every QB in the league would've finished 11-5. In fact, I think at least half of the starting QBs in the league would NOT have finished 11-5 or better.

Well of course he made plays, and of course at times he was the impetus.
But the guy who is relied on to throw the ball is the guy the average fan think made the play, but ultimately its more often 10 other gus doing their job making the QBs job routine.

Most visible and reason we win are 2 different things.
You said it yourself. About half the QBs would have been better, half worse. That is saying he just did his job, carried his load, not that he was the main reason for an 11-5 season.

 

[Ring 6]

...and I liked our 08 team, but the D had problems (3rd down, red zone...) and would have struggled to finish over 11-5 with most QBs. Brady would've hidden some of the deficiencies with spectacular play.

The D was ranked in the top 10. I understand it was imperfect but this thinking that imperfect is bad is just wrong. Not just you, its the dominant thinking on this board.
Typically fans will try to belittle being a top 10 D by citing other stats, all of which are part of the original equation.
I think with the average NFL QB the 2008 Pats are 11-5, with Brady the push for 16-0, with a poor QB they are 8-8.

 

[upstater1]

Here's what Cassel has done : he was the main reason the Pats went 11-5 last season. Here's what Bledsoe has done this decade : won fewer games in more attempts.

The 2000 team was not as good as the 2008 team.

Brady played a big factor too. The difference between the two QBs in my eyes is that Cassel played with a good team because Brady got hurt.

 

[upstater1]

This decade, he had a successful season (with NE) and Bledoe hasn't.

It's an impossible argument. You say he had a successful season and Bledsoe hasn't.

Well, Bledsoe had successful seasons elsewhere, and unsuccessful ones as well.

The main factor is, Brady got hurt and Cassel got a chance to play with a good Patriots team, and he made the most of it.

So, it's an impossible comparison. How confident would you be in Cassel's record with the 2000 Patriots? do you think he would have won more than 5 games?

 

[upstater1]

Your the one who said it was a free play, now you are the one saying you read Bledsoes mind that he only threw the ball over his shoulder to avoid a sack because he knew it was a penalty. IF that was the case, why ground it? You would get the penalty.
The 'proof' isnt that you remember he must have seen it.

I remember watching the play and thinking, flag, free play. He could have thrown an interception there if he wanted. Of the few things that can go wrong on such a play (intentional grounding) one did. I thought that call was questionable too, actually, since the ball went beyond the line of scrimmage. It was a bad call.

 

[Ring 6]

The 2000 team was not as good as the 2008 team.

Brady played a big factor too. The difference between the two QBs in my eyes is that Cassel played with a good team because Brady got hurt.

The 2008 team tied for the best record ever by a Bledsoe team.
With us he was 11-5 once.
He was 10-6 twice
9-7 once
8-8 once
6-10 once
5-11 twice

Are you saying that every team Bledsoe ever played wasnt close to as good as the 2008 Pats? You are saying Bledsoe was much better, so those teams must have all been substantially worse.
What about the 2001 team that Drew was 0-2 with and Brady was 11-3 with, a better record than any Drew bledsoe QB'd team ever had.

I really don't enjoy pointing out all of Drews shortcomings, but damn you just dare me to.

 

[upstater1]

The 4th quarter huh?
Bledose was 3/8 for 29 yards. Woohooo what a studly performance. On the drive you are talking about he was 3/7 4 yards, 7 yards and 18. It sounds like you think that making ONE GOOD THROW on an 18 yard gain equates to playing well?
It seems that your standard is that if you can find one thing he did that was NFL starting QB caliber then he was good. There were many, many other things he did that were bad, and overall it was a bad performance. 3 points in a half in a very close game is poor no matter how many excuse you want. You can pretend that BB held the offense back because its a nice to create another Drewscuse, but he threw 18 times in that 2nd half, hardly a conservative gameplan. (The fact that he only completed 7 of them is the problem)

So, we should jump up and down because he was able to get 2 first downs in the 4th quarter? Isnt that his job. No, actually his job was to score points. After that drive the D got an Int and handed Bledsoe the ball, at the Pitt 34 with 2:41 left and a 7 point lead. 2 runs brought a 3rd and 8 and Bledsoe threw incomplete into double coverage leaving a long, missed FG.

I don't get it. You seem to be trying to prove that Bledsoe did a better job than Mike Grerenburg could have done. Perhaps that was your standard? Mine was playing like a competant professional QB. By my standard, he played poorly, by yours a play or 2 of competance makes him great.

Mike Grerenburg? Huh?

My standard was that he was playing a terrific defense, the offense was the most conservative offense in history (moreso than the Tampa offense a year later) and he made clutch plays when he needed them. A competent QB would not have made the plays he did. You needed a QB who could make incredible throws with his arm. I don't think Cassel could have made those throws.

 

[Ring 6]

I remember watching the play and thinking, flag, free play. He could have thrown an interception there if he wanted. Of the few things that can go wrong on such a play (intentional grounding) one did. I thought that call was questionable too, actually, since the ball went beyond the line of scrimmage. It was a bad call.

But in all honesty, you dont know if because you saw a flag on TV, the QB saw it from the pocket. The vantage points are night and day. I remember almost shltting my pants when he chucked it up there, so I know I didnt know there was a penalty.
In any event, I think we can all agree that the move was not smart, and we escaped it anyway, although getting a first down on the defensive hlding would have been nice.

 

[Double G]

i never said that brady learned EVERYTHING by watching bledsoe make mistakes but u cant deny that it does help some qbs to sit and watch a starting qb in the nfl for a year or two.. by u saying that i said it made Brady the GOAT is u putting words in my mouth.. i said it helped him learn i never said he learned everything he knows because of Bledsoe.. i just think if u say he didnt learn anything by sitting behind Bledsoe and watching him throw dumb passes for a year and 2 or 3 games whatever it was when Bledsoe got hurt that ur crazy.. he definately had to learn something from Bledsoe.. and i have videos on the patriots 2001 championship dvd that has bledsoe saying to the media nothing in the NFL is promised and hes gona support the team all the way.. it also has video showing him calling plays on the sideline and talking to Brady about what plays he likes and dislikes.. so for u to blow off him "coaching" brady just seems weird to me cuz its on tape for everyone to see...

Don't try to defend what you said or you'll continue to get dumped on by the Stepford Fans...................