Bledsoe or Cassel

[Ring 6]

I don't recall that being a free play. I don't recall it not being either. Does someone have the play by play for that game?

I think this was the play, but I could be wrong.

(13:11) (Shotgun) D.Bledsoe pass incomplete. Penalty on PIT-D.Townsend, Defensive Holding, offsetting, enforced at PIT 32 - No Play. Penalty on NE-D.Bledsoe, Intentional Grounding, offsetting.


IIRC, he did get called for grounding on that play, but I don't think its accurate to say it was a free play. First you could never consider a flag in the secondary to be a free play, even if you could see it happen, and second, if he hadn't done the pirouette backward flip, it wouldn't have been offsetting penalties, it would have been a penalty on Pitt and a first down.
I think free play is a misrepresentation.

 

[Ring 6]

i never said that brady learned EVERYTHING by watching bledsoe make mistakes but u cant deny that it does help some qbs to sit and watch a starting qb in the nfl for a year or two.. by u saying that i said it made Brady the GOAT is u putting words in my mouth.. i said it helped him learn i never said he learned everything he knows because of Bledsoe.. i just think if u say he didnt learn anything by sitting behind Bledsoe and watching him throw dumb passes for a year and 2 or 3 games whatever it was when Bledsoe got hurt that ur crazy.. he definately had to learn something from Bledsoe.. and i have videos on the patriots 2001 championship dvd that has bledsoe saying to the media nothing in the NFL is promised and hes gona support the team all the way.. it also has video showing him calling plays on the sideline and talking to Brady about what plays he likes and dislikes.. so for u to blow off him "coaching" brady just seems weird to me cuz its on tape for everyone to see...

How is what you describe any different than any QB in the world playing in front of Brady?
I think we can agree now that Bledsoe didn't call plays, and we have proven that Bledsoe and Brady were in the same place at the same time and spoke to each other, but that hardly constitutes coaching. He spoke to Lawyer Milloy a lot that year, does Milloy get credit for coaching him?

 

[Ring 6]

I agree that we have different assessments. I do not think most other fans disagree with me however. I can remember people thinking Drew came in solidly as a backup and performed rather well. He had 2 excellent quarters, just excellent, and one bad one. In a big spot like an AFC Championship, that's all I could expect from a backup, and certainly more than I could expect from Cassel. I really could not see Cassel doing as well against the Steelers in the 2nd and 4th quarters.

I think your memory is bad. He had one good drive, actually part of drive to end the half.
In the 2nd half he was 7/18 for 66 yards and we ran 36 plays for 81 yards, scoring 3 points.
That just isnt 2 excellent quarters. It isn't even 2 excellent drives, or even good for that matter.
Truly, we won the game despite his play. I understand that many Pats fans were excited that he got to play and we won, and over the years the memories have blurred, but he did not play well by any tretch of the imagination, unless you are talking about the 4 plays finishing the TD drive at the end of the 1st half. Outside of that he was dreadful.

 

[Ring 6]

He played for 2 minutes in the second quarter. And he finished an existing drive. He played well enough in that brief segment. He did not have two excellent, just excellent quarters per the guy who assesses them all. He played poorly, made some bad decisions and some poor throws, but didn't ultimately make a costly mistake, and because the Steelers and their QB continued to we didn't need more than that from the position. He also completed a couple of quality throws in the process. Drew could do that. Follow orders for short stretches. Then the ego would override better judgement. The guy who assessed them all also understood that. That is why the unheralded first year player drafted 198 places later started the following week on an ankle that required more than a good tape job.

At that point Brady was essentially Cassel on a bad ankle and Bill chose to stick with him in the biggest game of his career, his first SB as a HC. BB was not charitably assessing Bledsoe as a backup because he wasn't one, nor would he ever be because of that same ego, he was a 9 year veteran NFL starter and being assessed accordingly. And as such he could not start here any longer because he could not run this offense the way BB dictated it be run, with discipline and accountability, while his former first year backup could.

Cassel wasn't a 9 year veteran starter when he stepped in. He hadn't started a game anywhere since HS. Yet by week 10 it was clear he could run this offense the way BB envisioned it. So, given the choice of a 9 year veteran capable of having his moments and a first year player who was grasping the system and consistently executing within it, nine years later BB would choose door #2 as his backup to Brady whatever the situation or circumstance. He would also never choose to again work with a player with whom he could not have a productive working relationship if there was a viable alternative. Cassel would be that viable alternative in the situation the OP presented, backup to Brady on an all decade team.

We would not have 11-5 last year with Drew Bledose version 2001 as our QB. In fact, I have little doubt that if the backups were Cassell.2008 and Bledsoe.2001, Belichick would have played Cassel, probably from the start, but definitely after 3-4 games of seeing Drew be Drew.
I don't think people understand Beldsoe was a beaten man at that point. His play and his team had deteriorated consistently from 1996 to 2001. In 2000 he began to turn into a guy who lacked confidence, seemed to go through the motions, and came across as a guy who felt that he was destined to lose. I have never seen a more pessimistic QB than Bledsoe of 2000-01. That is not the Bledsoe people remember, because its clear from this thread most remember him as the leader of the rebirth, the 'gunslinger', the guy who could make things happen. By 2001, he was no longer that guy. He found it again in 2003 but otherwise from 2000 on he was an enigma of good talent and poor performance.
The end for him in Buffalo and Dallas were both cases of him QBing one of the lowest scoring offenses in the NFL. IT was bad, very bad. That is who we had in 2001, not the guy who threw for all those yards in 1994, or played good disciplined football in 1996.

 

[Ring 6]

I think this was the play, but I could be wrong.

(13:11) (Shotgun) D.Bledsoe pass incomplete. Penalty on PIT-D.Townsend, Defensive Holding, offsetting, enforced at PIT 32 - No Play. Penalty on NE-D.Bledsoe, Intentional Grounding, offsetting.


IIRC, he did get called for grounding on that play, but I don't think its accurate to say it was a free play. First you could never consider a flag in the secondary to be a free play, even if you could see it happen, and second, if he hadn't done the pirouette backward flip, it wouldn't have been offsetting penalties, it would have been a penalty on Pitt and a first down.
I think free play is a misrepresentation.

I am almost certain this was the play, because i didnt find any other Pitt defensive penalties in the play by play (unless i missed one).
So, the rationalization that Bledsoe took that bizarre risk because it was a free play appears to be inaccurate.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

We would not have 11-5 last year with Drew Bledose version 2001 as our QB. In fact, I have little doubt that if the backups were Cassell.2008 and Bledsoe.2001, Belichick would have played Cassel, probably from the start, but definitely after 3-4 games of seeing Drew be Drew.
I don't think people understand Beldsoe was a beaten man at that point. His play and his team had deteriorated consistently from 1996 to 2001. In 2000 he began to turn into a guy who lacked confidence, seemed to go through the motions, and came across as a guy who felt that he was destined to lose. I have never seen a more pessimistic QB than Bledsoe of 2000-01. That is not the Bledsoe people remember, because its clear from this thread most remember him as the leader of the rebirth, the 'gunslinger', the guy who could make things happen. By 2001, he was no longer that guy. He found it again in 2003 but otherwise from 2000 on he was an enigma of good talent and poor performance.
The end for him in Buffalo and Dallas were both cases of him QBing one of the lowest scoring offenses in the NFL. IT was bad, very bad. That is who we had in 2001, not the guy who threw for all those yards in 1994, or played good disciplined football in 1996.

Ill asume im not one of the people you're referring to, being that i agree with your comments in this post. We just simply evaluate backup QBs differently

 

[MoLewisrocks]

.. and i have videos on the patriots 2001 championship dvd that has bledsoe saying to the media nothing in the NFL is promised and hes gona support the team all the way.. it also has video showing him calling plays on the sideline and talking to Brady about what plays he likes and dislikes.. so for u to blow off him "coaching" brady just seems weird to me cuz its on tape for everyone to see...

And you don't understand what you were watching. Bledsoe is relaying the playcall from Weiss. It's a way to keep a backup involved and something that is sometimes done al most as a courtesy to help smooth ruffled veteran feathers. At some point Brady asked Drew if he would call in the plays. Brady was always wise beyond his years. He knew if Drew pitched a fit it could still impact the team. Lots of young QB's in his position would want the last person calling in the plays to be the guy whose job you were hoping to take over permanently...He was not calling plays come playoff time, although he was still wearing a headset as do most backups so they can follow the playcalling flow of the game.

Guys shoot the **** even if they don't have each others best interest at heart. Aaron Rogers will tell you that he learned a lot just talking to and watching Brett Favre for three seasons, when he was around... But Brett never mentored him nor truly cared whether he made it as a starter in GB or anywhere if it was going to be at his expense. Some guys like Bruschi or Harrison here willing mentor knowing a guy may well replace them sooner as a result. That's the real deal. Brady was coaching up receivers on route adjustments in TC as a freakin' rookie... That's the real deal. Drew was helpful before the first Rams game. Once he was medically cleared to start he wouldn't even speak in the QB's meetings or the captains meetings because BB was there...and as Brady said the strain on relationships thereafter was palpable. The real hero in that situation was the kid who refused to let it rattle him and just carried on as if nothing was amiss...

 

[upstater1]

I think this was the play, but I could be wrong.

(13:11) (Shotgun) D.Bledsoe pass incomplete. Penalty on PIT-D.Townsend, Defensive Holding, offsetting, enforced at PIT 32 - No Play. Penalty on NE-D.Bledsoe, Intentional Grounding, offsetting.


IIRC, he did get called for grounding on that play, but I don't think its accurate to say it was a free play. First you could never consider a flag in the secondary to be a free play, even if you could see it happen, and second, if he hadn't done the pirouette backward flip, it wouldn't have been offsetting penalties, it would have been a penalty on Pitt and a first down.
I think free play is a misrepresentation.

I remember seeing the flag on the hold (it was obvious, Bledsoe saw it too) and then I remember the flag on Bledsoe for throwing over his shoulder, and I remember Bledsoe being pissed at the call. Regardless, Bledsoe would have never flipped the thing the way he did were it not for the flag. (It was blatant, and the flag was thrown right in front of Bledsoe 10 yards downfield).

 

[upstater1]

I think your memory is bad. He had one good drive, actually part of drive to end the half.
In the 2nd half he was 7/18 for 66 yards and we ran 36 plays for 81 yards, scoring 3 points.
That just isnt 2 excellent quarters. It isn't even 2 excellent drives, or even good for that matter.
Truly, we won the game despite his play. I understand that many Pats fans were excited that he got to play and we won, and over the years the memories have blurred, but he did not play well by any tretch of the imagination, unless you are talking about the 4 plays finishing the TD drive at the end of the 1st half. Outside of that he was dreadful.

I think your memory is bad. If you have the gametape, go to the 4th quarter and watch the throws he made when the team had its back against the wall at our ten yard line.

The fact is, and we all know this, Belichick had reigned in the offense the entire playoffs. Look at what Brady did against the Steelers before he got hurt. Look at Brady's numbers against the much worse Rams defense in the Super Bowl. Until the game was tied, the offensive play calling was incredibly conservative. I'm really only interested in how the QBs played when the chips were down. Go back and look at the 4th quarter and you'll see that Bledsoe made clutch throws. The one to Troy Brown was simply an amazing throw.

 

[upstater1]

I am almost certain this was the play, because i didnt find any other Pitt defensive penalties in the play by play (unless i missed one).
So, the rationalization that Bledsoe took that bizarre risk because it was a free play appears to be inaccurate.

Why is it inaccurate?

He took the risk because he saw the flag for obvious holding. The defender took the Patriot down.

 

[Ring 6]

Why is it inaccurate?

He took the risk because he saw the flag for obvious holding. The defender took the Patriot down.

Your the one who said it was a free play, now you are the one saying you read Bledsoes mind that he only threw the ball over his shoulder to avoid a sack because he knew it was a penalty. IF that was the case, why ground it? You would get the penalty.
The 'proof' isnt that you remember he must have seen it.

 

[ScottieC]

Who would you pick as your second string QB on the all-decade (00s) team?

Remind me again what Cassel has done.

 

[Ring 6]

I think your memory is bad. If you have the gametape, go to the 4th quarter and watch the throws he made when the team had its back against the wall at our ten yard line.

The fact is, and we all know this, Belichick had reigned in the offense the entire playoffs. Look at what Brady did against the Steelers before he got hurt. Look at Brady's numbers against the much worse Rams defense in the Super Bowl. Until the game was tied, the offensive play calling was incredibly conservative. I'm really only interested in how the QBs played when the chips were down. Go back and look at the 4th quarter and you'll see that Bledsoe made clutch throws. The one to Troy Brown was simply an amazing throw.

The 4th quarter huh?
Bledose was 3/8 for 29 yards. Woohooo what a studly performance. On the drive you are talking about he was 3/7 4 yards, 7 yards and 18. It sounds like you think that making ONE GOOD THROW on an 18 yard gain equates to playing well?
It seems that your standard is that if you can find one thing he did that was NFL starting QB caliber then he was good. There were many, many other things he did that were bad, and overall it was a bad performance. 3 points in a half in a very close game is poor no matter how many excuse you want. You can pretend that BB held the offense back because its a nice to create another Drewscuse, but he threw 18 times in that 2nd half, hardly a conservative gameplan. (The fact that he only completed 7 of them is the problem)

So, we should jump up and down because he was able to get 2 first downs in the 4th quarter? Isnt that his job. No, actually his job was to score points. After that drive the D got an Int and handed Bledsoe the ball, at the Pitt 34 with 2:41 left and a 7 point lead. 2 runs brought a 3rd and 8 and Bledsoe threw incomplete into double coverage leaving a long, missed FG.

I don't get it. You seem to be trying to prove that Bledsoe did a better job than Mike Grerenburg could have done. Perhaps that was your standard? Mine was playing like a competant professional QB. By my standard, he played poorly, by yours a play or 2 of competance makes him great.

 

[Ring 6]

I think your memory is bad. If you have the gametape, go to the 4th quarter and watch the throws he made when the team had its back against the wall at our ten yard line.

The fact is, and we all know this, Belichick had reigned in the offense the entire playoffs. Look at what Brady did against the Steelers before he got hurt. Look at Brady's numbers against the much worse Rams defense in the Super Bowl. Until the game was tied, the offensive play calling was incredibly conservative. I'm really only interested in how the QBs played when the chips were down. Go back and look at the 4th quarter and you'll see that Bledsoe made clutch throws. The one to Troy Brown was simply an amazing throw.

You said clutch throwS. We all know that you feel the 18 yard pass to Troy Brown is a ticket to the Hall of Fame. Where are the others? He only also complete 7 and 4 yard passes to the fb and te.

How can one pass (one that I expect him to make) turn 7/18/66 with 3 points scored in a half of football into good, unless your rule is good QB play is finding a single pass that was on target.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think your memory is bad. If you have the gametape, go to the 4th quarter and watch the throws he made when the team had its back against the wall at our ten yard line.

The fact is, and we all know this, Belichick had reigned in the offense the entire playoffs. Look at what Brady did against the Steelers before he got hurt. Look at Brady's numbers against the much worse Rams defense in the Super Bowl. Until the game was tied, the offensive play calling was incredibly conservative. I'm really only interested in how the QBs played when the chips were down. Go back and look at the 4th quarter and you'll see that Bledsoe made clutch throws. The one to Troy Brown was simply an amazing throw.

Forget about what we think. Fan assessments are clouded by all manner of emotions. This is how his coaches assessed his performance:

He threw a TD pass to David Patten and made two difficult throws to Brown and Marc Edwards. He completed 10 of 21 attempts for 102 yards. When it was over he cried.

As emotional as the Pittsburgh game was - Beldsoe received a game ball - the quarterback was still being evaluated. According to the coaches' game breakdowns, Bledsoe's statistics were: one mental error, four bad throws, and four bad choices. The logical counterargument to those unflattering numbers was rust. How could Bledsoe be expected to play well when the majority of his reps hand't come with the starters? How could he be sharp when he hadn't played in a game in four months?

Belichick didn't view it that way. As much as he respected Bledsoe, he had an idea of what his quarterback should do. The model for that idea was Brady. Brady had shown an ability to stay calm, recognize defensive nuances, and shout out the necessary adjustments for his receivers, backs and linemen. When he coached against Bledsoe in NY, Belichick would often present the quarterback with a "Cover 5" defense. It features man to man coverage with two deep safeties to help on the receivers. Belichick would tell his defensive backs to be physical at the LOS. Then he would play the educated odds, going with scientific and anecdotal research that revealed Bledsoe would not be accurate enough or patient enough to make the throws that coud defeat an effective "Cover 5".

So 9 of his 21 attempts constituted poor plays. That was one of the reasons over the course of his career his regular season attempts and yards boggled the mind while his completion %, TD to INT ratio and QB rating were pedestrian to say the least. Over that same career his playoff performance was less than pedestrian. He served a purpose, as did Parcells here. But he was no more a championship caliber QB for a Belichick coached team than Tuna was a championship caliber HC for a Kraft owned team. And those who persist in remembering him as something other than what he was - say as a tough luck QB who lacked weapons or consistent coaching or the kind of opportunities Brady is portrayed as having stumbled into or he too would have won us championships - are just letting their fond emotions cloud their judgement.

We advanced to the Superbowl in 2001 because the Steelers had a really bad day and we won the turnover battle because our QB's didn't make any costly mistakes and Troy Brown had a game for the ages. Replace Brady with 2001 Bledsoe or 2008 Cassel on that day with that same cast on both sides of the field and we still win. Replace Brady with Bledsoe a week later and we end up losing in OT if not on a pick 6 with a minute remaining in regulation... Replace 2008 Cassel with 2001 Bledsoe last season and we don't win 11 games, which in almost any other season guarantees a playoff spot if not the division.

What sold Kraft on Belichick was his grasp of the fact that in the salary cap era you could not build a consistent winner around a handful of complacent overhyped talents. You needed adaptable player/leaders. What sold Belichick on Brady was he was that. What finally ended Drew's career with the guy who drafted him was he could never be that. That's always the knock on the gunslinger. They can improvise some classic sports center moments both good and bad. In fact the 11 yard completion to Brown in the 4th was an improvisation. They generally cannot perform well consistently enough within the confines of a system to justify the compensation they command for their mere posession of a level of god given talent. Particularly not in NE under BB.

Drew had only just turned 30 when he left here. He had two more chances over 5 more years to prove it wasn't him... He was DONE at 34 because it was.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

He played for 2 minutes in the second quarter. And he finished an existing drive. He played well enough in that brief segment. He did not have two excellent, just excellent quarters per the guy who assesses them all. He played poorly, made some bad decisions and some poor throws, but didn't ultimately make a costly mistake, and because the Steelers and their QB continued to we didn't need more than that from the position. He also completed a couple of quality throws in the process. Drew could do that. Follow orders for short stretches. Then the ego would override better judgement. The guy who assessed them all also understood that. That is why the unheralded first year player drafted 198 places later started the following week on an ankle that required more than a good tape job.

At that point Brady was essentially Cassel on a bad ankle and Bill chose to stick with him in the biggest game of his career, his first SB as a HC. BB was not charitably assessing Bledsoe as a backup because he wasn't one, nor would he ever be because of that same ego, he was a 9 year veteran NFL starter and being assessed accordingly. And as such he could not start here any longer because he could not run this offense the way BB dictated it be run, with discipline and accountability, while his former first year backup could.

Cassel wasn't a 9 year veteran starter when he stepped in. He hadn't started a game anywhere since HS. Yet by week 10 it was clear he could run this offense the way BB envisioned it. So, given the choice of a 9 year veteran capable of having his moments and a first year player who was grasping the system and consistently executing within it, nine years later BB would choose door #2 as his backup to Brady whatever the situation or circumstance. He would also never choose to again work with a player with whom he could not have a productive working relationship if there was a viable alternative. Cassel would be that viable alternative in the situation the OP presented, backup to Brady on an all decade team.

The WOOOSH!!! you hear is that reasoning going in one Bledsoe Krishna's ear and out the other.

 

[Ring 6]

Forget about what we think. Fan assessments are clouded by all manner of emotions. This is how his coaches assessed his performance:



So 9 of his 21 attempts constituted poor plays. That was one of the reasons over the course of his career his regular season attempts and yards boggled the mind while his completion %, TD to INT ratio and QB rating were pedestrian to say the least. Over that same career his playoff performance was less than pedestrian. He served a purpose, as did Parcells here. But he was no more a championship caliber QB for a Belichick coached team than Tuna was a championship caliber HC for a Kraft owned team. And those who persist in remembering him as something other than what he was - say as a tough luck QB who lacked weapons or consistent coaching or the kind of opportunities Brady is portrayed as having stumbled into or he too would have won us championships - are just letting their fond emotions cloud their judgement.

We advanced to the Superbowl in 2001 because the Steelers had a really bad day and we won the turnover battle because our QB's didn't make any costly mistakes and Troy Brown had a game for the ages. Replace Brady with 2001 Bledsoe or 2008 Cassel on that day with that same cast on both sides of the field and we still win. Replace Brady with Bledsoe a week later and we end up losing in OT if not on a pick 6 with a minute remaining in regulation... Replace 2008 Cassel with 2001 Bledsoe last season and we don't win 11 games, which in almost any other season guarantees a playoff spot if not the division.

What sold Kraft on Belichick was his grasp of the fact that in the salary cap era you could not build a consistent winner around a handful of complacent overhyped talents. You needed adaptable player/leaders. What sold Belichick on Brady was he was that. What finally ended Drew's career with the guy who drafted him was he could never be that. That's always the knock on the gunslinger. They can improvise some classic sports center moments both good and bad. In fact the 11 yard completion to Brown in the 4th was an improvisation. They generally cannot perform well consistently enough within the confines of a system to justify the compensation they command for their mere posession of a level of god given talent. Particularly not in NE under BB.

Drew had only just turned 30 when he left here. He had two more chances over 5 more years to prove it wasn't him... He was DONE at 34 because it was.

I couldnt agree more

 

[Deus Irae]

The WOOOSH!!! you hear is that reasoning going in one Bledsoe Krishna's ear and out the other.

Not really. As usual, the Bledsoe bashers pull out a quote or two and pretend it justifies everything their fool opinions have been spouting when it doesn't.


Then again, Bledsoe bashers aren't rational on the topic in the first place.

 

[Ring 6]

Not really. As usual, the Bledsoe bashers pull out a quote or two and pretend it justifies everything their fool opinions have been spouting when it doesn't.


Then again, Bledsoe bashers aren't rational on the topic in the first place.

I havent seen any Bledsoe bashing going on here, just assessment of him as a player.
When a guy plays poorly and you say he plays poorly you aren't bashing him.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I think this was the play, but I could be wrong.

(13:11) (Shotgun) D.Bledsoe pass incomplete. Penalty on PIT-D.Townsend, Defensive Holding, offsetting, enforced at PIT 32 - No Play. Penalty on NE-D.Bledsoe, Intentional Grounding, offsetting.


IIRC, he did get called for grounding on that play, but I don't think its accurate to say it was a free play. First you could never consider a flag in the secondary to be a free play, even if you could see it happen, and second, if he hadn't done the pirouette backward flip, it wouldn't have been offsetting penalties, it would have been a penalty on Pitt and a first down.
I think free play is a misrepresentation.

Certainly 'free play' in this context is misleading.
Point being the play is an example of just one of Drew's flawed decision making habits, the reason that BB would prefer even a 2nd year 6th round pick or a Cassel to Bledsoe. Decision making. Don't blow the game that 21+ other players worked hard to win.