Some more tidbits on Barwin

[patchick]

Why? It's much more fun to keep making new threads further deluding each other into how Barwin is the next Lawrence Taylor.

You know, it says a lot about Taylor that nobody gets called the next Lawrence Taylor.

 

[Revman]

A very good point about Barwin. His stock has risen so quickly that he has outgrown is value rating. As I said 2 weeks ago, I would love for Barwin to be a round 2 type pick. People are now defending him as a great prospect. A very solid round one player. I think when he was under the radar that he would have been a goo pick. I believe it is very rare to find a Mayo. His talent and Pat's opening for a starter married together to help Mayo succeed faster. He had very little competition in camp so he won the job and improved each week, over a 16 game season. Barwin plays an entirely different role. To be effective he needs to bring pass rush explosion to the table immediately. Especially if he is a 23 pick. There is little guarantee he would play to start as a rookie. He could be a good role player. I don't want to spend 23 on a role player. We can get role players later . 23 needs to have the best opportunity to start or at least provide valueable minutes in a short period of time. Pick him later-he becomes a better pick for me, more realistic.

 

[CanadianPat'sFan]

If you love the 7th ranking in the nation, then you must have REALLY loved Tedy Bruschi coming into his draft. He had 52 total sacks, tops all time at the time for sacks. Bruschi was only a 3rd rounder.

Why do you even try to make you point because you always leave youself open for a comeback

Bruschi is my favorite player so trust me I know all about him and his college career.

Bruschi tied the NCAA Division I-A career sack record with 52.0 quarterback sacks, equalling the mark set by former Alabama All-American Derrick Thomas, now an All-Pro performer for the Kansas City Chiefs ... Bruschi's 74 tackles for losses ranks sixth in Division I-A history ... compiled 185 total tackles (137 solos), forced six fumbles and recovered five during his collegiate career ... played defensive end for Arizona's "Desert Swarm" defense, but will be tried at middle linebacker in the Patriots' defensive scheme ... utilized his explosive quickness off the ball to compensate for his size ... has shown great agility and ability to shed blockers. 1995: Consensus All-American and All-Pac-10 selection his senior year ... totaled 56 tackles (44 solos), including 14.5 sacks (-96 yards) and 19.5 tackles for losses of 110 yards ... his sack total ranked third in the nation ... added four pass deflections and forced one fumble ... registered three sacks and blocked an extra point attempt at Illinois (9/16) ... made six tackles, including two sacks and three stops for losses vs. Washington (10/21) ... added another multiple sack performance with two sacks at Washington State ... closed out his Arizona career with a season-high 11 tackles, including four sacks for a loss of 17 yards and a pair of deflected passes in a 31-28 triumph over state-rival Arizona State (11/24). 1994: Earned consensus All-American honors and was one of four finalists for the Lombardi Award given annually to the top lineman in the nation ... he was also a finalist for Football News' National Defensive Player of the Year Award ... totaled 39 tackles, of which 10 were sacks for a loss of 65 yards and a total of 15 tackles for losses totaling 86 yards ... forced one fumble and recovered four others ...put a hit on Stanford quarterback Steve Stenstrom, which altered the throw and resulted in an interception by teammate Tony Bouie, who raced 49 yards for a touchdown in a 34-10 victory ... logged four tackles for losses, including a pair of sacks at Oregon (10/29) despite seeing limited playing time due to a shoulder injury sustained the week before ... had a consecutive streak of games with a sack snapped on October 1 vs. Oregon State ...recorded three sacks (-29 yards) vs. Utah in the Freedom Bowl. 1993: Earned second-team All-American honors after setting an all-time school record with 19 sacks (-143 yards) as a sophomore, breaking the previous record of 15 (Steve Boadway in 1984) ... earned first-team All-Pac-10 honors and was named the team's Most Valuable Player ... his 27.5 tackles for losses, including 19 sacks were each career highs ... credited with 3.5 sacks (-43 yards) and forced a fumble in a 16-14 victory over Illinois ... registered a pair of sacks vs. both Southern California and Oregon State... posted two critical fourth quarter sacks to take the Cougars out of scoring range vs. Washington State ... added 2.5 sacks for a loss of 14 yards vs. Oregon ... recorded a sack vs. Miami in the Fiesta Bowl and received the bowl's defensive player of the game honors in a 29-0 shutout. 1992: Played strongside outside linebacker prior to his transition to the defensive line in 1993 ... started just one of 12 games and still managed to post 4.5 sacks for the season. 1991: Missed the first three games of the season due to a pinched nerve in his neck ... returned and started vs. UC-Long Beach and Washington as a true freshman, but suffered a broken left thumb and was redshirted.


So you pointed out he had 52 sack total over his 4 year career. How many years did Barwin start on the defensive side of the ball??? Just imagine his stats if he played 4 years at D-END???

Please do not compare Bru and Barwin as they are not the same and Barwin just wants to be Barwin

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I said he would be GOOD VALUE at that spot, how does that mean that's where I think he should be ranked?

Yet more DISTORTION from you, to twist in a biased way to further support a false premise.

Aaron Curry is a "good" value after the third round too, funny you never pointed that keen insight out for us mav.

You have been forced to reassess your own valuation of Barwin and now project him a two rounds higher than you did when you started arguing your viewpoint. It isn't "just" that you felt he was overrated for the 1st round mav, you specifically set his value below the third round. Cry foul all you like, you seem perfectly capable of using language to communicate your thought and I see no reason to believe you meant to argue Barwin's actual value was anything other than a fourth round pick. Since you are not ignorant of common language usage, we are left with the inescapable conclusion you changed your own valuation of Barwin and have moved closer to the position some of us held before the Combine. Rather embarrassing considering your vitriolic moments in this debate, but thank you for having the integrity to make corrections when the evidence failed to support your earlier position. :rocker:

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

A very good point about Barwin. His stock has risen so quickly that he has outgrown is value rating. As I said 2 weeks ago, I would love for Barwin to be a round 2 type pick. People are now defending him as a great prospect. A very solid round one player. I think when he was under the radar that he would have been a goo pick. I believe it is very rare to find a Mayo. His talent and Pat's opening for a starter married together to help Mayo succeed faster. He had very little competition in camp so he won the job and improved each week, over a 16 game season. Barwin plays an entirely different role. To be effective he needs to bring pass rush explosion to the table immediately. Especially if he is a 23 pick. There is little guarantee he would play to start as a rookie. He could be a good role player. I don't want to spend 23 on a role player. We can get role players later . 23 needs to have the best opportunity to start or at least provide valueable minutes in a short period of time. Pick him later-he becomes a better pick for me, more realistic.

Meriweather was drafted #24 overall, yet he did not start a game until Harrison was lost to IR. He saw limited playing time, despite being on a 2007 team that often had insurmountable leads. Why would drafting Barwin at roughly the same place in the draft require him to need to bring anything but hard work and steady improvement to the table? If NE drafted a DE at #23 would you insist he do anything special or would it be reasonable to let him develop behind the more experienced reserves? This is why I think considering Barwin at #23 isn't a reach, like Meriweather he's a playmaker worth developing a year before he starts subbing on nickel/dime packages. As fast a learner as he's shown himself to be, I think he could be a #3 OLB in 2010.

 

[patchick]

You have been forced to reassess your own valuation of Barwin and now project him a two rounds higher than you did when you started arguing your viewpoint. It isn't "just" that you felt he was overrated for the 1st round mav, you specifically set his value below the third round. Cry foul all you like, you seem perfectly capable of using language to communicate your thought and I see no reason to believe you meant to argue Barwin's actual value was anything other than a fourth round pick. Since you are not ignorant of common language useage, we are left with the inescapable conclusion you changed your own valuation of Barwin and have moved closer to the position some of us held before the Combine. Rather embarrassing considering your vitriolic moments in this debate, but thank you for having the integrity to make corrections when the evidence failed to support your earlier position. :rocker:

Dang, you just broke the PatsFans record for average syllables per word that I set in the "ceilings and floors" thread!

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Dang, you just broke the PatsFans record for average syllables per word that I set in the "ceilings and floors" thread!

Yeh, but my spellink chicker still gets cornfused.

 

[Irish Hooligan]

QUOTE=mayoclinic;1338098]I've called Barwin my favorite 3-4 OLB prospect since 2005. That led me to reflect a bit on past years. In particular, I've been thinking a bit about last year's draft, when people were debating between Chris Long, Vernon Gholston and Quentin Groves as 3-4 OLB prospects.

I never thought Gholston would be a good 3-4 OLB. He seemed too muscled and bulky, without the agility or mental makeup to read and react and play in space. I thought Chris Long would actually make a nice 3-4 OLB (and still think he could), though he is a bit heavy for that position. His 7.04 3-cone was quite decent, and he obviously had a great motor and intangibles. I didn't think he was a realistic option, though, because he was probably going to go top 5 and the cost of a conversion project that high in the draft seemed prohibitive.

Of the 3, Groves seemed the most natural fit, and was the most likely to be available at a point in the draft where a DE/OLB conversion would not breakl the bank. While #10 was always too high for Groves, if we had been allowed to keep our #31 pick I think a lot of people would have been salivating over him as a 3-4 OLB prospect. At 6'3" 259# he had great size. He had 4.53 speed, and was an excellent pass rusher. He had some experience at OLB as well as at DE in college. He compiled impressive stats at a top SEC program.

But he also had a lot of issues. His 3-cone time of 7.31 was much slower than you would like (considerably slower than Long's 7.04, despite Long running a 4.75 40 compared with Groves' 4.53), and suggested that his speed might be more linear, without the necessary agility to play well in space. He didn't fare particularly well when he played 3-4 OLB at Auburn. He was week against the run He had some off-field issues. And he had questions about his motor and work habits. NFLdraftcountdown negatives on their profile of Groves included: "Extremely inconsistent and lacks a great motor...Undersized and doesn't have the ideal bulk that you look for..Isn't stout at the point...Marginal instincts, awareness and recognition...Limited pass rush repertoire...Too aggressive at times...Slow off the line...Has trouble shedding blocks...Poor technique..A questionable work ethic." Better Know a Draft Prospect: Defensive End QuentinGroves - Big Cat Country

A lot of people, including many on this board, openly lusted for Groves and were very upset when he fell to #52 and we didn't move up to get him. I was never a Groves fan, mainly because of his poor 3-cone and his character issues.

What I like so much about Barwin is that he has the size AND the speed AND the agility AND the background playing in space AND the versatility AND the motor AND the intelligence AND the character. No one else has all of those. Not Long, Gholston, or Groves. Not Matthews, English, Sintim, Maybin, Ayers, Brown, Orapko, Cushing, or Michael Johnson. Not Manny Lawson, Chad Greenway or Bobby Carpenter in 2006. The only strike I can see against him is that he is raw. And he is, as far as DE pass-rushing technique goes. But he's been a very quick learner, and my guess is that he will make rapid progress under Pepper's tutelage if the Pats get him. Worst case that I see is that he becomes a Gocong, which, as BOR notes, is not exactly the end of the world.[/QUOTE]

:yeahthat::ditto::agree:[ here here

 

[PatsAttack]

Im so sick of barwin. quit shoving it down our throats there are way better prospects that we could talk about that have actually accomplished something in the colligiate ranks. Rather than this raw prospect who lacks instincts

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Im so sick of barwin. quit shoving it down our throats there are way better prospects that we could talk about that have actually accomplished something in the colligiate ranks. Rather than this raw prospect who lacks instincts

Lacks instincts? There are valid criticisms of Barwin, but "lacks instincts" does not seem to be one of them.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Lacks instincts? There are valid criticisms of Barwin, but "lacks instincts" does not seem to be one of them.

Pro Football Weekly's book says he doesn't instinctively see plays developing.

 

[mayoclinic]

Dang, you just broke the PatsFans record for average syllables per word that I set in the "ceilings and floors" thread!

I comprehend your perspective, but after giving the matter the appropriate consideration I have arrived at the belated conclusion that this is irrelevant.

Or, as someone once said to me, "why use a long word when a dimunitive one will do."

 

[mayoclinic]

Im so sick of barwin. quit shoving it down our throats there are way better prospects that we could talk about that have actually accomplished something in the colligiate ranks. Rather than this raw prospect who lacks instincts

No one is forcing you to read the threads about him.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

No one is forcing you to read the threads about him.

If we want to read this board they are.

 

[bucky]

Why? Most draft writers prefer to compare a player to an NFL counterpart,

That's exactly my point - they have no "NFL counterpart" because they have not played a snap in the NFL. Saying that Barwin compared to Vrabel because he plays the same position, looks like him and played TE in college is actually misleading. It might make some poor fan somewhere think that Barwin is actually going to be the kind of player Vrabel is!

 

[ctpatsfan77]

If we want to read this board they are.

Why? The thread I posted about how the Patriots draft quoted Barwin, but the point I was trying to make was a general one that could apply to anybody.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Why? The thread I posted about how the Patriots draft quoted Barwin, but the point I was trying to make was a general one that could apply to anybody.

Yeah, I know - I'm completely Barwined out to the point I just don't want to hear his name any more. It's my problem not yours but the love for Barwn is beyond ridiculous at this point.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Barwin for president? LOL. JK.

 

[nickw308810]

Very random question about Barwin, but if we drafted him, while he is learning the 3-4 OLB position, and because of his ability as a TE and his obvious athleticism, could he be an option to line up as FB on occasion and help save the roster spot on a traditional FB? Just a thought.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Very random question about Barwin, but if we drafted him, while he is learning the 3-4 OLB position, and because of his ability as a TE and his obvious athleticism, could he be an option to line up as FB on occasion and help save the roster spot on a traditional FB? Just a thought.

That's a good idea. I think he can do it. If he can play tight end, he can probably play H-back type pass catching fullback pretty easily.

I dunno about his lead blocking or running abilities though. Barwin could easily be the Pats 'swiss army knife' player, LOL.