The OLB Candidates

[patchick]

In the "#23, #34, #47, #58" thread, the following names were put forward as OLB candidates at #23-34:

Brown, Everette
Barwin, Connor
Cushing, Brian
English, Larry
Kruger, Paul
Matthews, Clay
Sintim, Clint

That's an incredible number of possibilities at a hard-to-fill position -- and every single poster named at least one of them. So as a community, we believe that one of these guys is going to be a Patriot come April.

Yet 3-4 OLB conversion has been one of the very hardest positions for teams to draft for, with a slew of first-round disappointments. And if you look closely at the list above, I don't think there's a single player who has demonstrated both elite measurables AND an elite college career.

Anybody care to make the case for which players are most worth the first-round gamble?

EDIT: Hmm, just noticed no Aaron Maybin. Feel free to add him to the discussion, if you're so inclined!

 

[WhiZa]

Is there a difference in player type between both OLB spots? I mean, if we assume AD is on one side, are we looking for a player who can fit Vrabel's spot or can all OLBs play either side?

 

[patsinthesnow]

In Crable We Trust!

 

[bakes781]

I would take the guy with the college career over measurables:

Larry English

 

[patchick]

I would take the guy with the college career over measurables:

Larry English

But don't you have to take level of competition into account? English put up 8 sacks in the Mid-American Conference, vs., for instance, Brown 11.5 & Sintim 10 in the ACC.

 

[Warren94]

ACC was a joke this yr

 

[patchick]

ACC was a joke this yr

It's all relative. Northern Illinois was slaughtered by Ball State and Navy.

 

[Seneschal2]

Perhaps an assist from BB:

"The 3-4 outside linebacker/4-3 defensive end group, I think it's an interesting group," Belichick said. "I think there are some very talented players there, guys from different backgrounds, guys who have been in coverage, guys who haven't been in coverage, with pass rush ability. The (Brian) Orapkos and (Larry) Englishes, guys like that. That will be part of the process as we go forward, to try to figure out how they would fit in, in our case, to our system."

 

[bakes781]

Perhaps an assist from BB:

Well if he mentioned him by name then we're certainly not drafting him

 

[Warren94]

true true... OLB I would take is either cushing or matthews. Cushing though with all the NFL Network PUB kind of bothers me.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

In the "#23, #34, #47, #58" thread, the following names were put forward as OLB candidates at #23-34:

Brown, Everette
Barwin, Connor
Cushing, Brian
English, Larry
Kruger, Paul
Matthews, Clay
Sintim, Clint

That's an incredible number of possibilities at a hard-to-fill position -- and every single poster named at least one of them. So as a community, we believe that one of these guys is going to be a Patriot come April.

Yet 3-4 OLB conversion has been one of the very hardest positions for teams to draft for, with a slew of first-round disappointments. And if you look closely at the list above, I don't think there's a single player who has demonstrated both elite measurables AND an elite college career.

Anybody care to make the case for which players are most worth the first-round gamble?

EDIT: Hmm, just noticed no Aaron Maybin. Feel free to add him to the discussion, if you're so inclined!

Sintim isn't much of a projection, he actually played the position in college in a defense with many parallels to BB's.

Kruger also played some 3-4 OLB at Utah, perhaps the parallels aren't as close to NE's 3-4, but he's an easier projection to make...which brings you back to his production and whether it came in situations he could expect to face whle in a NE 3-4?

We now come to the word "conversion" - which involves change, so which prospects have demonstrated the mental flexibility to handle new assignments - "change" as it were?

Cushing clearly handles change well, he's been moved around a lot, which may actually work against him as he hasn't always been in the job long enough to establish his competence.

The same holds true for Matthews.

English adapted well in a move from high school LB to DE, so it comes down to his athleticism as to whether he should move back.

Ev Brown has always played DE, he's got the best hands/technique for the pass rush of the prospects listed above. He also got to drop and play in space on a few occasions in college. While he hasn't had to change and play a new position, he still projects well to 3-4 OLB.

Finally, my choice for the job - Connor Barwin: He had to change from TE to DE, he also was asked to play in space, not too often, but he was covering RBs in the flat and moving along the LOS to disrupt the blocking assignments. It's notable that in his first year at DE, he was one of the NCAA leaders in sacks, TFL, passes defended (by a DL), and blocked kicks - one could argue he not only handled change well, but he excelled. I also consider his play for the Cincy basketball team to be an element of change and adapting. I'd say his mental flexibility to adapt and thrive in new assignments is well documented.

I don't see any of these young men who could not "mentally" adjust to playing in a NE 3-4. I do have some concerns "physically" for the slighter Matthews who has played in a system that has him trying to avoid blockers, and to a lesser extent for his team mate Cushing. Athletically I'd rank the remaining prospects

1. Barwin
2. Brown
3. Sintim
4. English
5. Kruger

I don't think Maybin is in the discussion, though he showed remarkable smoothness in drills, I'm not sure he is mentally or physically ready for a NE 3-4 - he should have waited another year before coming out.

 

[Boston Boxer]

true true... OLB I would take is either cushing or matthews. Cushing though with all the NFL Network PUB kind of bothers me.

i agree with you...i like these two from USC

 

[patsfan55]

But don't you have to take level of competition into account? English put up 8 sacks in the Mid-American Conference, vs., for instance, Brown 11.5 & Sintim 10 in the ACC.

Okay so if you use the "level of competition" argument than were you one that was happy about the choice of Chad Jackson vs Greg Jennings. Because I was not. Playing against a low level of comp is the biggest bs. Whenever I hear it as a "con" for a player I actually upgrade that player.
As for the original post, I do like English, but I'm starting to love Barwin.

 

[patsfan55]

Sintim isn't much of a projection, he actually played the position in college in a defense with many parallels to BB's.

Kruger also played some 3-4 OLB at Utah, perhaps the parallels aren't as close to NE's 3-4, but he's an easier projection to make...which brings you back to his production and whether it came in situations he could expect to face whle in a NE 3-4?

We now come to the word "conversion" - which involves change, so which prospects have demonstrated the mental flexibility to handle new assignments - "change" as it were?

Cushing clearly handles change well, he's been moved around a lot, which may actually work against him as he hasn't always been in the job long enough to establish his competence.

The same holds true for Matthews.

English adapted well in a move from high school LB to DE, so it comes down to his athleticism as to whether he should move back.

Ev Brown has always played DE, he's got the best hands/technique for the pass rush of the prospects listed above. He also got to drop and play in space on a few occasions in college. While he hasn't had to change and play a new position, he still projects well to 3-4 OLB.

Finally, my choice for the job - Connor Barwin: He had to change from TE to DE, he also was asked to play in space, not too often, but he was covering RBs in the flat and moving along the LOS to disrupt the blocking assignments. It's notable that in his first year at DE, he was one of the NCAA leaders in sacks, TFL, passes defended (by a DL), and blocked kicks - one could argue he not only handled change well, but he excelled. I also consider his play for the Cincy basketball team to be an element of change and adapting. I'd say his mental flexibility to adapt and thrive in new assignments is well documented.

I don't see any of these young men who could not "mentally" adjust to playing in a NE 3-4. I do have some concerns "physically" for the slighter Matthews who has played in a system that has him trying to avoid blockers, and to a lesser extent for his team mate Cushing. Athletically I'd rank the remaining prospects

1. Barwin
2. Brown
3. Sintim
4. English
5. Kruger

I don't think Maybin is in the discussion, though he showed remarkable smoothness in drills, I'm not sure he is mentally or physically ready for a NE 3-4 - he should have waited another year before coming out.

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, as well as your rankings, although I might have English ahead of Stintim, somewhat of a tossup to me there.

One thing to add about Maybin, is that he reminds me of Colvin a lot. And, might I add I was never a fan of Rosie's. Neither guy can hold the edge if his life depended on it.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Maybin (if he lasts that long) belongs in the discussion and I'd drop Kruger a lot lower based on what I saw of him. Barwin tops the list at OLB imo. Some of the guys on that list, such as E. Brown, won't even make it to pick #23 so it would be safe to take them off as well.

 

[jays52]

Looking at the group, I see a few OLB's and a few 43 1 gap DE's. First, the negatives.

I know there are a lot of people interested in Brown. To me, he looks way too rigid to convert to OLB. He also looks like he lacks the power to play in a 2-gap scheme. He doesn't play with good leverage, his ass is always too high, he beats players with speed. I haven't seen any utilization of agility in his game tape. To me, he screams stay away.

The USC kids are both inside linebackers in a 34 the pros. Cushing looks to me like a kid who will be very good as a 43 sam, not so much in a 34. Mathews is interesting as an inside linebacker in the 34, but I'm a little weary of the USC linebackers.

Now, let's look at the positives.

The more and more I look at Connor Barwin the more and more I see a 34 OLB stud in the making. Barwin has it all. He is fluid, he is explosive, he has fast feet, good hand use, he is long, he can jump, he is stout against the run and he is agile. What impressed me the most about him though was his pass rushing skills. He had a well developed rip, fought to keep hands off of him, could swim opponents with ease an even had a pretty decent bull rush. Recently, I have began to grade him out as a 1st rounder and would be totally happy with taking him at 23. That said, there is significant appeal to taking him after 32. One, I think he will be there and two, I think that it would be an utter steal. Further, the economic efficiency of his production weighed against a 2nd round contract would enable greater cap flexability. Barwin is my favorite in the group at OLB.

I like Larry English as well. Sure, one could point out competition, but if you put on the game tape, he plays his best against the best opponents. He had 2.5 sacks, 4 tackles and 3 TFL's against Tennessee, for example. While his combine time was slower than expected, he plays around 4.6 to my eye. He has great short-area burst, great closing speed and can really thump. Despite the knocks on him regarding strength, when I watch him, I see a guy who is chucking tackles off of him, blowing up blocks and playing like a demon. He has one of the largest trunks I have seen, and has rare hip strength, which you can clearly see on film. I think English is one of the few DE's who can not only translate to OLB, but to ILB as well. I think he has the hands, the short-distance burst and the hip strength to be one hell of an SILB.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Jays52. I agree. Barwin and English are in my top 4 at OLB and Barwin I think will be the best of them. Barwin is well worth the #23 overall if we think he won't last until round 2. I'd rather have Barwin + Chung than Delmas + second rated OLB.

1. Barwin
2. Sintim
3. English
4. Matthews

I like Maybin as a passrusher but I don't think he makes it to #23 and I still like Barwin better than him. EBrown also likely won't last till 23 and I see him best fit for a 4-3 defense.

 

[patchick]

Okay so if you use the "level of competition" argument than were you one that was happy about the choice of Chad Jackson vs Greg Jennings.

No, actually, I wasn't. But I don't think he applies in this case regardless, because Jennings was NOT a case of choosing college production over measurables, which is what we were talking about. Jennings had fantastic numbers, including the fastest 3-cone score of any receiver his year.

In the case of English, the poster said to heck with his no-so-inspiring measurables, he's the guy who really produced in college. So it seemed fair to point out that many other players on the list put up better college numbers against a higher level of competition.

In other news, I'm interested that so many are so high on the USC pair, who IIRC recorded fewer sacks, pds and tfls between the two of them than many others on the list did individually. I just don't see the on-field dominance of a first-rounder there.

 

[DaBruinz]

No, actually, I wasn't. But I don't think he applies in this case regardless, because Jennings was NOT a case of choosing college production over measurables, which is what we were talking about. Jennings had fantastic numbers, including the fastest 3-cone score of any receiver his year.

In the case of English, the poster said to heck with his no-so-inspiring measurables, he's the guy who really produced in college. So it seemed fair to point out that many other players on the list put up better college numbers against a higher level of competition.

In other news, I'm interested that so many are so high on the USC pair, who IIRC recorded fewer sacks, pds and tfls between the two of them than many others on the list did individually. I just don't see the on-field dominance of a first-rounder there.

Its very hard to grade USC players based on STATS alone. You have to look at how they were used. USC is such a dominating team, that players don't necessarily get big numbers because the other team doesn't have the chance to put up the plays for those numbers to be tallied.

 

[patchick]

Its very hard to grade USC players based on STATS alone. You have to look at how they were used. USC is such a dominating team, that players don't necessarily get big numbers because the other team doesn't have the chance to put up the plays for those numbers to be tallied.

Yeah, I shouldn't have phrased it in purely stats terms. Cushing and Matthews just didn't leap out at me as OLB powerhouses on the field.