McDaniels checks in

[PatsWickedPissah]

I still don't get the hostility towards Maroney. We know that when he's healthy and the line does its job, he's a tremendous runner.

You need to talk to Josh McD who seemingly disagrees.

Agreed that LoMo has talent and did a GREAT job last playoffs.

He's an enigma. One that the Pats may be losing patience with.

 

[Deus Irae]

You need to talk to Josh McD who seemingly disagrees.

Agreed that LoMo has talent and did a GREAT job last playoffs.

He's an enigma. One that the Pats may be losing patience with.

2 quick questions for you, with later follow ups rather than a long, drawn out post....


Maroney, Bull or kickout/cutback runner?

Maroney, good guy to get on the edge, or better to keep inside the tackles almost all the time?

 

[Patjew]

I still don't get the hostility towards Maroney.

I guess because (fair or not) people see other, different-style runners like Morris and Jordan who seem have more success behind the same line and scheme.

I wish we had the Maroney of last year's div. game and AFCCG.

 

[Ghost of Ben Dreith]

I'm not going to jump on Maroney while he's down. I did enough of that when he was healthy for that couple of games.

Look, the most obvious thing I took from McDaniel's comments was that the coaches were seeing the same thing a lot of the Maroney "bashers" were seeing too. The dancing, indecisiveness, tackles for losses.....Josh said it all.


The comment about drafting a thoroughbred for pulling a plow was a very good analogy I thought. This team needs a plow horse, since we aren't going to run away from many teams this year on Offense. Keep the defense fresh, no turnovers, first downs.....sounds good to me.

 

[WhiZa]

I think he was sending a message to Maroney that he preferred RBs not to dance as Maroney was recently criticized for doing just that.

 

[Deus Irae]

I guess because (fair or not) people see other, different-style runners like Morris and Jordan who seem have more success behind the same line and scheme.

I wish we had the Maroney of last year's div. game and AFCCG.

But that's just it. They haven't had more success. A lot of people like to insist that Morris was having a better year than Maroney last season prior to his injury, but he wasn't. We went over the numbers last year, probably in multiple threads, and they simply didn't track that opinion. And, as for this year, all 3 runners struggled in most of the games.

 

[Patjew]

But that's just it. They haven't had more success. A lot of people like to insist that Morris was having a better year than Maroney last season prior to his injury, but he wasn't. We went over the numbers last year, probably in multiple threads, and they simply didn't track that opinion. And, as for this year, all 3 runners struggled in most of the games.

The I guess they just LOOKED more successful, probably because they LOOK less hesitant. Especially this year.

Morris, however, did run like a beast last week. Do you attribute that more to Denver than Morris or Maroney's injury or ... ?

(That's a sincere, non-nasty question BTW.)

 

[Brady to Brown]

I think he was sending a message to Maroney that he preferred RBs not to dance as Maroney was recently criticized for doing just that.

It may have been my "dancing with the stars" post.

I was red squared for that.

 

[Deus Irae]

The I guess they just LOOKED more successful, probably because they LOOK less hesitant. Especially this year.

Morris, however, did run like a beast last week. Do you attribute that more to Denver than Morris or Maroney's injury or ... ?

(That's a sincere, non-nasty question BTW.)

Morris, and Jordan, are more bruising in their styles. They look for a slight crease and try to plow their way through it. People love that sort of approach because they confuse the driving into a pile with effort, rather than understanding the a cutback runner gives his effort in a different way. Maroney tries to cut and slash his way into yards against the O-lineman, waiting for an opening if need be, while a Morris/Jordan sort takes a quick look and hits the closest thing to a hole that he can find.

The ironic thing about the Denver game is that Morris' big runs came as a result of cutbacks into the sort of holes that a healthy Maroney would have hit and broken for more yards than Morris got. For the first time this season, the offensive line was actually dominating an opponent in the running game, and both Maroney and Jordan missed the opportunity to inflate their numbers the way Morris did.

At least that's how it appeared to me.

 

[BPF]

If there was a mistake made, I think it was when drafting. I've said all along they knew what they were getting and much as you admire them you don't select a thoroughbred to pull your plow. I recall BB waxing poetic about Maroney's explosive capacity in space (seemed almost giddy at the prospect) and how he and Dillon would compliment each other as opposed to the kid being drafted to replace the vet (who was a little miffed at the time...). Then came the zone blocking difficulties. Then we started to hear local media speculate that they (OL) don't "like" blocking for Maroney. Which if that's the case, Bill is the one who needs to get it together - one way or the other... Trying to force square pegs into round holes is just counter productive and injurious to everyone concerned.

At any rate if that was a veiled dig at Maroney, Josh needs to review his BB 101 manuel. And if Bill mistook Maroney for a north south runner, Josh might want to give his boss a slap upside the head.

Here is what BB said about Maroney after the Pats made the pick:

All Things Bill Belichick : 29-Apr-2006 NFL Network Transcript

Belichick: We had very high grades on Laurence and we feel like he can be a real productive player for us in our system. We first saw Laurence last year when we were evaluating Marion Barber. He's an outstanding player. Very productive—good speed, good runner. We like our running backs—we have some very talented players at that position—but they're getting up there in terms of experience and it's good to add a young player that we feel like we can work with and integrate into the system now.

 

[Fencer]

The blog also said:

2) Eliminating negative running plays. McDaniels made the point that the Patriots have had only three negative runs in the last three games, a stat that pleased him. He felt the Patriots had success moving the line of scrimmage against the Broncos. "That is the thing we talk about a lot," he said. "You don't want to allow penetration in the backfield. ... it all starts at the line of scrimmage."

That seemed to be about the OL (and maybe the TEs).

Admittedly, Maroney avoiding a TFL is like Cassell avoiding a sack -- awkward and rare. But Morris and Ellis didn't have a lot of TFL-avoiding to do Sunday.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I like the point that McDaniels made about having had only three negative runs in the last three games. It also seems to me that he is taking a little bit of a shot at Maroney when complementing BJGE below. Getting back to Green-Ellis, I like what I see and what I hear about him and wish him all the best. He could surprise some people this weekend w/a solid effort as the back getting the most carries vs the Rams with Morris and Jordan out. I had no idea he was that big, 225 lbs as McDaniels mentioned, I thought he was 210-215 lbs. He does look solidly built and can bounce off tacklers, he runs low with good pad level and he seems to have good vision. Count me in as a fan of this kid's running style.

McDaniels checks in - Reiss' Pieces - Boston.com

He never mentioned Maroney's name. Maroney defenders are getting way too sensitive about the kid. What's wrong with seeing what BJGE has and giving him a little praise? He's practically the only healthy RB on the roster!

If there was a mistake made, I think it was when drafting. I've said all along they knew what they were getting and much as you admire them you don't select a thoroughbred to pull your plow. I recall BB waxing poetic about Maroney's explosive capacity in space (seemed almost giddy at the prospect) and how he and Dillon would compliment each other as opposed to the kid being drafted to replace the vet (who was a little miffed at the time...). Then came the zone blocking difficulties. Then we started to hear local media speculate that they (OL) don't "like" blocking for Maroney. Which if that's the case, Bill is the one who needs to get it together - one way or the other... Trying to force square pegs into round holes is just counter productive and injurious to everyone concerned.

At any rate if that was a veiled dig at Maroney, Josh needs to review his BB 101 manuel. And if Bill mistook Maroney for a north south runner, Josh might want to give his boss a slap upside the head.

And the excuses for Maroney never cease! First the coaches are using him wrong. Then the OL doesn't "like to block" for him? WTF? Do you even know how dumb that sounds? "Well we're not gonna do our job that we're paid to do, cos we don't like to 'block' for him." This is beyond homerism, it's blinders + crackpipe. Maroney FAILED because he is what he is. And it wasn't good enough. End of discussion. And if as you are suggesting the coaches are 'taking shots' at Maroney, how does this make him any better of a RB? Maybe they are criticizing his flaws that he refused to correct?? Is that not allowed from the team's own freaking coaching staff? Right, so now Maroney's failure is BB's fault... right. I guess he had it out for Chad Jackson too!

 

[MoLewisrocks]

The blog also said:



That seemed to be about the OL (and maybe the TEs).

Admittedly, Maroney avoiding a TFL is like Cassell avoiding a sack -- awkward and rare. But Morris and Ellis didn't have a lot of TFL-avoiding to do Sunday.

It's tough to avoid those TFL's when the defenders are meeting you in the backfield. Same deal for Morris in the early going, less so for Jordan but he was running later in games when defenses are often playing differently situationally. And of course, like old tap dancing glass Maroney, they too are now MIA so gee, wonder what that says about them and our system...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

He never mentioned Maroney's name. Maroney defenders are getting way too sensitive about the kid. What's wrong with seeing what BJGE has and giving him a little praise? He's practically the only healthy RB on the roster!

And the excuses for Maroney never cease! First the coaches are using him wrong. Then the OL doesn't "like to block" for him? WTF? Do you even know how dumb that sounds? "Well we're not gonna do our job that we're paid to do, cos we don't like to 'block' for him." This is beyond homerism, it's blinders + crackpipe. Maroney FAILED because he is what he is. And it wasn't good enough. End of discussion. And if as you are suggesting the coaches are 'taking shots' at Maroney, how does this make him any better of a RB? Maybe they are criticizing his flaws that he refused to correct?? Is that not allowed from the team's own freaking coaching staff? Right, so now Maroney's failure is BB's fault...right. I guess he had it out for Chad Jackson too!

I don't see anyone dissing Benny. People who live to see any player fail to validate their opinions follow teams for reasons other than love of the game or a particular team...

You can't differentiate between rational attempts to analyze a situation and excuses. Which should be something Ian requires along with a mere $18 to be a VIP here...

As I said LOCAL MEDIA as well as some here hinted that this OL didn't seem to like to block for Maroney. Others who focus on line play in general have hinted that OL tend to prefer to block for north south runners because cutback runners require them to hold blocks longer. Maroney is what he is, and that is not a downhill move the pile runner - and unless he's blind Bill knew that when he drafted him. He planned to transition to a zone blocking scheme - I guess he was just doing that for kicks... This OL couldn't transition to that scheme over the course of 3 seasons, but I guess you missed that whole exercise - maybe due to your head being stuck up your ass. In pre season 2006 they found out it would require cumbersome substitutions that were in Bill's own words too difficult for the coaching staff to manage from the sidelines...so the attempt was scrapped and they stuck with the existing system which favored the recently extended but sucking fumes since 2004 Corey Dillon...with whom they parted company after that season (Maroney's rookie year). They added a journeyman RB to replace that downhill component, only as is often the case with that style of RB he got hurt all the way to IR. It didn't cost them until February when the new pass happy offense stalled behind a manhandled OL. This year they got a dedicated backup downhill component for redundancy, albeit one with a history of injuries and :ugh: go figure he's been out since week 3...

FO personnel decisions like life are all about choices. Bill wanted an explosive dimension in the running game (prior to realizing he could sign a Moss and Welker in 2007) and he drafted an explosive cutback runner for that reason. Problem is when he couldn't alter the blocking scheme to suit that player's strength he ended up grinding him up like a receiving TE (we grind those up here too in case you hadn't noticed...blocking). I don't doubt over time this coaching staff decided they wanted Maroney to be something else, but it wasn't because they didn't like what he was so much as because they found they could not utilize him given the makeup/capacity of the rest of the roster. It's neither an excuse nor an indictment, it just is what it is.

I'm a homer who realizes you don't have to be shrill and irrational to be perceived as objective. It just takes a little basic intelligence...and perspective. Whereas any run of the mill moron can rant WTF he just sucks!!!!

 

[Truck]

A lot of people like to insist that Morris was having a better year than Maroney last season prior to his injury, but he wasn't. We went over the numbers last year, probably in multiple threads, and they simply didn't track that opinion.

This is based on simple observation and not quantitative analysis...
But the big difference between Maroney & Morris is their deviations from their average. Morris is just more consistent than Maroney is; and most fans; as well as coaches prefer consistency.

Lets say Morris 80% of the time gets between 3 and 5 years. Lets say Maroney gets between 3 and 5 yards 40% of the time; and 50% he gets under 3 yards; and 10% he breaks one huge.
When its 1st and 10, you might prefer Maroney in the hopes of the big play, and if it fails, you still have 2 more chances.
When its 2nd or 3rd and 2 though, Morris is a better option cause you can almost bank on him getting it; whereas you can't with Maroney and you're just as likely to lose yards as you are of getting that 1st.

And thats why people love Faulk -- who would be #4 on the depth chart when everyone is healthy; Cause when its 3rd and 8, he can consistently be counted on to catch the short pass and get the first.

If Morris/Jordan and Maroney are healthy then its all good cause you have both 1st down and 2nd/3rd down options. But if you could only pick one, I'd pick the consistent one.

 

[Deus Irae]

This is based on simple observation and not quantitative analysis...
But the big difference between Maroney & Morris is their deviations from their average. Morris is just more consistent than Maroney is; and most fans; as well as coaches prefer consistency.

Lets say Morris 80% of the time gets between 3 and 5 years. Lets say Maroney gets between 3 and 5 yards 40% of the time; and 50% he gets under 3 yards; and 10% he breaks one huge.
When its 1st and 10, you might prefer Maroney in the hopes of the big play, and if it fails, you still have 2 more chances.
When its 2nd or 3rd and 2 though, Morris is a better option cause you can almost bank on him getting it; whereas you can't with Maroney and you're just as likely to lose yards as you are of getting that 1st.

And thats why people love Faulk -- who would be #4 on the depth chart when everyone is healthy; Cause when its 3rd and 8, he can consistently be counted on to catch the short pass and get the first.

If Morris/Jordan and Maroney are healthy then its all good cause you have both 1st down and 2nd/3rd down options. But if you could only pick one, I'd pick the consistent one.

That's fine, but if you go back and check the data, I believe you'll find Maroney was better in that department, as well. I think it was ProFootballOutsiders who did some metric work, and Maroney worked out to be in the top 5 or so backs under the metrics. I can't remember who posted that, so I can't tell you where to look. Sorry....

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Just happened to be looking at the game book from last week for another thread and happened to notice that Morris had at least 1 negative run and at least 2 (back to back) runs for no gain last week...but hey, whose counting...and besides he's injured AGAIN now too...

I hope he makes it back and stays on the field - Jordan too - before the glassites turn on them like a pack of disgruntled rabid dogs (excuse me, I must mean passionate and objective fans)...

 

[PittPatriot]

There you go. I just formed a counter argument to my own point.

That is why you have earned the name KontradictioN!

 

[Krugman]

Green-Ellis is bigger than I thought,figured him to around 200-205.Anyone notice how he was in blitz -pick up situations?I didnt notice ,to be honest.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Will you finally admit that Maroney is a bust after he gets cut/released or will you still try to come up with more excuses at that point?

I'll hope you'll be enough of a man to admit you were wrong then, but I doubt you'll own up to it.