Why do people want Brandon Lloyd cut?

[supafly]

He's getting $5M in new money in 2013. At best, he's the #3 option in the passing offense. His cap number is higher than Gronk's or Hernandez'. Do you think he's more valuable than either of those two?

These decisions will obviously have to made with regard to the ultimate plan for the whole entire WR unit, meaning that they'll have to pretty much know what is in store with Welker and Edelman.

Since that may not be possible at this point in time, I'd have a hard time believing that they weren't somewhat impressed with Llyod's ability to quickly get on the same page with Brady and the rest of the offense--even if he'd played in a similar system before.

Another year in the offense may produce even better results, but keeping Llyod pretty much guarantees that there will be other options if someone gets hurt or Welker isn't retained. Some of you are acting like he was Chad Ochocinco part two last year.

The front office's inability to hit on a downfield threat to do certain things for this offense that Brandon Llyod cannot/doesn't do is not really Brandon Llyod's fault, is it?

 

[bostonia3333]

I don't remember Lloyd making many intermediate vertical receptions for 10 yds even if it was for zero yac. Lloyd is like the bishop on a chessboard, he can only move diagonally.... So frustrating

 

[pherein]

Of course Colston is better but he's also getting paid TWICE as much. He signed a 5 year 40 million dollar contract with 19m in guarantees. Lloyd on the other hand singed for 3 years 12m. Lloyd produced 900 yards and Colston 1,100 yards. I think bang for the buck-wise, Lloyd is well worth the money we paid.

New Orleans Saints keep WR Marques Colston with 5-year deal - ESPN

I agree. Some of the contract money you see Colston getting is also for past performance. He was never paid much money before, usual payoff.

But Lloyd is a great bang for the buck, as these links show. I just thought you might want to see them.

Brandon Lloyd
Brandon Lloyd Salary Info and Value - New England Patriots Salaries -- Football Player Salaries

Marques Colston
Marques Colston Salary Info and Value - New Orleans Saints Salaries -- Football Player Salaries

New England Patriots
New England Patriots Salaries and Player Value -- Football Player Salaries

Tom Brady
http://football.player-salaries.com/players/78_Tom_Brady

Drew Brees
http://football.player-salaries.com/players/1009_Drew_Brees

and Bradys pretty cheap to,lol

 

[pherein]

32 year old WR's who put 20 lbs on aren't going to improve their game... He isn't worth throwing many vertical passes to at 185...:bricks:

maybe, but even Jerry Rice was 200 lbs. Lloyd at only 185 lbs is going to have trouble muscling for position, and fighting for the ball. The average for a CB is around the 180-200 lb. area.
For height, I would say 5'10"-6'1
according to Mr. Google.
So, I think some of the problems he is having, might be his weight. Just throwing it out there, but seems logical. He might need to bulk up a bit.

Thought Welker is 185 lbs, and lance more 190 lbs, but moore is 5 ft 9, and welker is the same height.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

same people who want him gone..will love him if he has a better YAC next year...always the way it happens

 

[supafly]

same people who want him gone..will love him if he has a better YAC next year...always the way it happens

While your point is very true, I'm not too sure that will necessarily happen.

I think that many (including myself on some level) saw Lloyd's signing as a better answer to our vertical problems, when in theory he was likely brought in to stretch the field more in a horizontal way from sideline to sideline.

He certainly is a fit for this offense, and adds more than Branch did with his 50 catches in 2011.

I'm sure we'll see some improvement in certain aspects with another year under his belt, but I'm not guessing that we'll see his YAC come up that much.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Even the usually reticent Mike Reiss has indicated that Lloyd remaining isn't a slam dunk, for purely financial reasons. Bill is not in the habit of overpaying for sub elite talent. He was paid $4M last season while hitting the cap at $2M and is due $5M in new money this season with a cap hit of $4.5M, something this team simply has not historically paid for his level of production. (Except for the mistake formerly known as Ochocinco - whom they obviously would not have invested $5.75M in had they known he wouldn't produce at all).

I think it may be a matter of whether or not they can retain Welker. If not they may not have leverage with Lloyd. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to restructure his deal so that the $3M option bonus becomes some sort of incentivized bonus structure he can earn over 2013-2014. (Would make more sense than trying to incentivize $500K of a pro bowl RG's salary in 2012, which they did attempt to do.) Perhaps 75 receptions and/or 1000 yards as a baseline (which would make them NLTBE and get them off the cap for now). Not sure what leverage Lloyd has beyond going along as there wasn't much interest in him absent Josh in 2012 and I doubt that has changed.

That $5M in cash and $4.5M against the cap (even minus $1M in dead cap or $3.5M) he is due likely covers retaining Edelman and Woodhead. Just getting his cap hit down to $2.9M probably frees up the cap space to cover one or the other.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I'll take the guy that fights for yards and leave the floppers on the soccer field. Lloyd's toughness must be a real hit in the locker room.

Hmmm, I always thought the point of the game was to get more yards so you can score TDs. I guess the team would rather he show toughness by taking big hits and fighting for every inch but not getting as many yards and 1st downs. Gronk is like that, it's just too bad he's been injured when we need him most in the playoffs...

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Hmmm, I always thought the point of the game was to get more yards so you can score TDs. I guess the team would rather he show toughness by taking big hits and fighting for every inch but not getting as many yards and 1st downs. Gronk is like that, it's just too bad he's been injured when we need him most in the playoffs...

The point is to get more yards than merely what it takes. That is best balanced with an eye to protecting your ability to remain on the field. That said, Lloyd flops when there isn't anyone within 10 yards of him and according to Bedard the team repeatedly spoke to him about his approach over the course of the season. It's hard to hit a guy in stride when he more often than not isn't striding. His YPC are trending downward and for an outside the numbers guy who catches less than 60% of the throws he's targeted on, that isn't encouraging.

 

[IllegalContact]

his presence does not hurt the pats, and for 5M, I don't have a problem with 74 catches, 900 yards and 4 TD's.....sure I would like more, but that's not a bad deal by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't see any FA's that would replace that for that price

 

[Rob0729]

Even the usually reticent Mike Reiss has indicated that Lloyd remaining isn't a slam dunk, for purely financial reasons. Bill is not in the habit of overpaying for sub elite talent. He was paid $4M last season while hitting the cap at $2M and is due $5M in new money this season with a cap hit of $4.5M, something this team simply has not historically paid for his level of production. (Except for the mistake formerly known as Ochocinco - whom they obviously would not have invested $5.75M in had they known he wouldn't produce at all).

I think it may be a matter of whether or not they can retain Welker. If not they may not have leverage with Lloyd. I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to restructure his deal so that the $3M option bonus becomes some sort of incentivized bonus structure he can earn over 2013-2014. (Would make more sense than trying to incentivize $500K of a pro bowl RG's salary in 2012, which they did attempt to do.) Perhaps 75 receptions and/or 1000 yards as a baseline (which would make them NLTBE and get them off the cap for now). Not sure what leverage Lloyd has beyond going along as there wasn't much interest in him absent Josh in 2012 and I doubt that has changed.

That $5M in cash and $4.5M against the cap (even minus $1M in dead cap or $3.5M) he is due likely covers retaining Edelman and Woodhead. Just getting his cap hit down to $2.9M probably frees up the cap space to cover one or the other.

Of course he isn't a lock to make the roster. He is still a #2 WR and the #3 or #4 receiving option. After seeing the Pats part ways with guys like Vrabel, Milloy, Seymour, McGinest, Koppen, Sanders, etc. via different ways; we know virtually no one is a lock. Considering Lloyd has an option bonus, he is obviously a guy who could be a target for release since he is one of the few players who can be cut and actually free up cap space (as long as he is cut before he receives his bonus).

I don't doubt they will approach him for a renegotiation. As you said, his market isn't great because he is considered a product of McDaniels. The Pats have a recent history of making their #2 WR take a pay cut in their second years here although the situations were different (Branch took a pay cut in the year after his trade and so did Ochocinco although he never actually made the roster to see that money).

I think Lloyd had a pretty good year if you disregard expectations, but I wouldn't be shocked if he was cut. Considering the players the Pats have gotten rid of over the years that turned heads, a move like this shouldn't shock anyone.

But unless Reiss is going on inside info, I tend to discount his analysis of the team. His analysis of the Pats have been spotty at best. Great reporter, horrible analyst.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Of course he isn't a lock to make the roster. He is still a #2 WR and the #3 or #4 receiving option. After seeing the Pats part ways with guys like Vrabel, Milloy, Seymour, McGinest, Koppen, Sanders, etc. via different ways; we know virtually no one is a lock. Considering Lloyd has an option bonus, he is obviously a guy who could be a target for release since he is one of the few players who can be cut and actually free up cap space (as long as he is cut before he receives his bonus).

I don't doubt they will approach him for a renegotiation. As you said, his market isn't great because he is considered a product of McDaniels. The Pats have a recent history of making their #2 WR take a pay cut in their second years here although the situations were different (Branch took a pay cut in the year after his trade and so did Ochocinco although he never actually made the roster to see that money).

I think Lloyd had a pretty good year if you disregard expectations, but I wouldn't be shocked if he was cut. Considering the players the Pats have gotten rid of over the years that turned heads, a move like this shouldn't shock anyone.

But unless Reiss is going on inside info, I tend to discount his analysis of the team. His analysis of the Pats have been spotty at best. Great reporter, horrible analyst.

Bedard has said the same things, too. It's more of a reading the tea leaves as it relates to their approach to value. As for expectations, mine would have been for about 3 more ypc and twice as many TD (given the absence of the TE's).

 

[DocHoliday]

The point is to get more yards than merely what it takes. That is best balanced with an eye to protecting your ability to remain on the field. That said, Lloyd flops when there isn't anyone within 10 yards of him and according to Bedard the team repeatedly spoke to him about his approach over the course of the season. It's hard to hit a guy in stride when he more often than not isn't striding. His YPC are trending downward and for an outside the numbers guy who catches less than 60% of the throws he's targeted on, that isn't encouraging.

With half the receiving core injured I prefer him playing safe.

Also I can't say we ever really lost a game because Lloyd didn't fight for extra yards - he's nearly always at or beyond the 1st down marker

 

[Deus Irae]

Even the usually reticent Mike Reiss has indicated that Lloyd remaining isn't a slam dunk, for purely financial reasons...

What he said was that he didn't know how the coaching staff assessed his worth, nothing more. It was a typical Mike Reiss "I don't know" answer.

If they keep him, it's a $4.5m cap charge. Just comes down to if they think he's worth that, as opposed to cutting him (post June 1 would be $1 million in dead money for 2013 and another $1 million in dead money for 2014, if I have my math right). I think he has value. Just not sure how the coaching staff assesses it as it relates to economics.

Chat: Chat with Mike Reiss - SportsNation - ESPN Boston

 

[Nehalem]

Lloyd is the only WR currently signed with any playing time in the offense.

The only way I see him getting cut is if Belichick decides to phase WRs out of the offense.

And go with either 5TE, 4TE/1RB, 3TE/2RB, or 1TE/4RB sets. :rocker:

 

[Rob0729]

Bedard has said the same things, too. It's more of a reading the tea leaves as it relates to their approach to value. As for expectations, mine would have been for about 3 more ypc and twice as many TD (given the absence of the TE's).

If Lloyd was 28 or 29, there would probably be no speculation like this. The thing is he is one of the few players who could be cut to free up any amount of cap space and he will be 32 by the start of next season.

 

[BradyManny]

Lloyd's not part of the problem, he's just not the solution we thought he was. We still need a better outside receiver, but he's fine as an outside WR2, even at the price.

Cutting him would be short-sighted, unless they stock up on better options. He still grasped this system far better than a lot of wideouts.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

What he said was that he didn't know how the coaching staff assessed his worth, nothing more. It was a typical Mike Reiss "I don't know" answer.

Chat: Chat with Mike Reiss - SportsNation - ESPN Boston

He was asked if they'd be willing to cut Lloyd. He didn't actually answer the question but he addressed the possibility of financials playing a role. In an earlier question he said he wasn't sure if Lloyd would be back.

Mike - is 2013 going to be like 2007, with respect to overhauling the WR position? In 2007 Gaffney was the only holdover and they added Moss, Welker and Stallworth. Could we see something similar with maybe Lloyd or Welker the only holdover and 3-4 new faces in town? All respect to Branch but he's running on fumes, and Edelman can't play 16. Reche Caldwell isn't walking through that door.

Mike

I think we'll see Edelman back, but Lloyd and Welker aren't locks in my view. A lot will depend on the market/economics. I'm interested to see how they approach it.

 

[Rob0729]

Lloyd's not part of the problem, he's just not the solution we thought he was. We still need a better outside receiver, but he's fine as an outside WR2, even at the price.

Cutting him would be short-sighted, unless they stock up on better options. He still grasped this system far better than a lot of wideouts.

I agree with this, but he could have an expanded roll in year two. Also, his roll might have been different if Gronk and Hernandez could have been on the field at the same time. They might have let him stretch the field more.

I do agree that you can't get rid of him without a plan. I don't think you can get as good or better for the same money or less. You could definitely go younger and give a long term deal that might be less of a cap hit this year. But younger means more expensive for the same talent.

 

[Deus Irae]

He was asked if they'd be willing to cut Lloyd. He didn't actually answer the question but he addressed the possibility of financials playing a role. In an earlier question he said he wasn't sure if Lloyd would be back.

Mike - is 2013 going to be like 2007, with respect to overhauling the WR position? In 2007 Gaffney was the only holdover and they added Moss, Welker and Stallworth. Could we see something similar with maybe Lloyd or Welker the only holdover and 3-4 new faces in town? All respect to Branch but he's running on fumes, and Edelman can't play 16. Reche Caldwell isn't walking through that door.

Mike

I think we'll see Edelman back, but Lloyd and Welker aren't locks in my view. A lot will depend on the market/economics. I'm interested to see how they approach it.

All Reiss said was that he's not a lock to return, in his "view". He said he doesn't know because he doesn't know how the Patriots are looking at it economically. In other words, he has no idea. Again...

I think he has value. Just not sure how the coaching staff assesses it as it relates to economics.

It's his typical "I don't know" answer where he plays both sides of the question because he has no info.