Why do people want Brandon Lloyd cut?

[Deus Irae]

Taylor Price: Total waste of a third round pick
Brandon Tate: Ditto
Chad Jackson: Glad we traded up for this turkey
P. K. Sam
Bethel Johnson: Second round whiff

As bad as that is...it gets worse. The next guy taken after Sharon Tate was Mike Wallace.

BB should never ever be allowed to draft another WR before the 5'th round.

Of course even a blind squirrel gets a few nuts: Oddly enough it was Givens in the 7'th that one of the best pick. Edleman was a good value as was Branch panned out too.

So you start by claiming they shouldn't draft WRs and should only go the FA route. You then admit to 3 success picks out of 9, with most of the picks being 3rd round and later. Given the parameters, the success rate isn't all that much lower than would be expected.

The blind squirrel thing makes no sense under the circumstances.

1 for 3 w/2nd round guys. Since round 2 is a 50/50 proposition in general, and the number is odd, but on track for that 50/50 split if the next pick is a success, there's no issue here.

2 for 6 w/lower than second round guys. Are you really trying to argue that a 33% hit rate on lower WR picks is a bad number?

 

[pherein]

I think one of the discusion was Lloyd or Colston last year. Granted Llyod does not have the speed or vertical leap of colston, but his dash from the line is fast. The problem I see is his weight. Guys a 185 lbs, colstons 230 lbs. 20 more pounds on Lloyd will do wonders muscling out the smaller CB's.

The Impressive part of Llyod is his vertical. Hes only an inch below Colston. A guy 4 inches taller than him. Ive accuatly started pulling for Lloyd. Hes a solid 3 WR as some have said, but put the weight on and throw him verticale passes, he might be a solid 2. I dont think he dropped much this season, just got muscled out from what I saw. Could be very wrong about this,lol

 

[Claremonster]

Taylor Price: Total waste of a third round pick
Brandon Tate: Ditto
Chad Jackson: Glad we traded up for this turkey
P. K. Sam
Bethel Johnson: Second round whiff

As bad as that is...it gets worse. The next guy taken after Sharon Tate was Mike Wallace.

BB should never ever be allowed to draft another WR before the 5'th round.

Of course even a blind squirrel gets a few nuts: Oddly enough it was Givens in the 7'th that one of the best pick. Edleman was a good value as was Branch panned out too.

Thats why McD should do it...he had pretty good luck doing it in Denver.

 

[YearbookCurfew]

I actually like Lloyd. I think he's MUCH better than Ocho ever was when he was here.

 

[reflexblue]

As in the title. Why? Lloyd had over 900 yards this year. He has a low cap hit compared to a lot of other receivers. People are talking like he is our worst receiver. I just don't get it. Is it because he doesn't get good yac? People seem to think that he sucks.

Cause there Idiots. Every year these idiots pick out a player to hate, this year its Loyd.

 

[supafly]

Personally I think that Llyod offers good financial value regarding the cap hit, and that he produced enough to warrant the WR2 status. Many felt that he would do more and that's the unfortunate problem, but I think that he proved that he could be dependable and make crucial grabs when needed.

In a perfect world we would keep Welker as the WR1, improve the WR2 position through the draft or free agency, and Llyod would make a great WR3/possession WR next season.

Since that may not happen I am hoping to at least retain Welker as the 1, see some improvement from Llyod with another year/offseason in this system, and potentially improve upon the 3 spot via FA/draft. I think that may be a more realistic approach, particularly when it comes to the finances.

Either way I think that you successfully build a WR corps around guys like Llyod (or at least include them in your corps), not get rid of them--especially when you consider the financial aspect.

 

[BradyMoss812]

I actually like Lloyd. I think he's MUCH better than Ocho ever was when he was here.

You're right, at least he's in a position to catch the ball, unlike Ocho.

 

[Rob0729]

Here is the salary information:

He was paid a $3m signing bonus on a 3-year contract. His signing bonus proration is $1M per year.

In 2013, he's due a $3M option bonus, $1.9M in salary, plus a workout bonus, for a total of probably about $5M in new money. His 2013 cap number will be about $4.5M (salary plus signing bonus proration plus option bonus proration). If he's cut before the option bonus is paid, there will be $2M in dead money (year 2 and year 3 signing bonus proration). There will be about $2.5M in savings on the 2013 cap. You'd then have to go out and sign (or draft) a replacement, and that 2013 number of that replacement may higher or lower than $2.5M.

The key question is whether or not it's a good idea to be paying $5M in new money in 2013 to the third or fourth option in your offense. I say it isn't.

So are you advocating cutting Lloyd and getting a say a Deion Branch to start again? You aren't going to get starting quality #2 WR for less than what the Pats are going to pay Lloyd. Unless Welker doesn't resign or the Pats sign one of the top WRs on the market or draft a WR in the first round, the WR that would replace him would be at best the #3 or #4 option on this team.

A good #2 WR would command a contract a contract with at least a $3 million signing bonus and a $2 million salary this year. And Lloyd is already a good #2 WR.

 

[Nunchucks]

I may have already said this, but if there is a WR to hate on, it is Deon Branch. The guy has been a total waste of space.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Not saying that if Edelman put up the same numbers as Lloyd, Lloyd and Edelman would provide the same value to the team in terms of everything including special teams. I am saying that Edelman put up the same numbers as Lloyd, many of the same people who are trashing Lloyd for their production would be saying Edelman proved that he is good enough to replace Welker's production on offense.

74 catches, for 911 yards, and 4 TDs is very respectable numbers for a #2 WR in an offense with Gronk and Hernandez and a strong running game. The perception by many is that Lloyd is garbage. I am saying that if Edelman had the same numbers, people including the people who think Lloyd is garbage would be calling Edelman an emerging star.

The only problem with that asessment is he didn't play in an offense with Gronk AND Hernandez for most of the season. He played in an offense with Gronk OR Hernandez. Lloyd was clearly an improvement over Ocho, but that wasn't a tough task to accomplish. He wasn't much of an improvement over 2010-2011 Branch. And his numbers were often forced and didn't accomplish what they obviously would have liked them to. In games where he was targeted and had more than 5 receptions we were oddly 1-4. 3 of those 4 losses were against tough, physical defenses.

Bedard wrote on more than one occasion that they were somewhat disappointed with his performance and got after him to step up. His periodic lack of targeting in some games followed up by games in which he was again heavily targeted fits that scenario. He is also reportedly not the easiest talent to manage. He has the ego of a #1-2 WR but has seldom produced in that range over the course of his career. That's why he was available to come here. He claims Josh understands and appreciates him while other coordinators did not utilize him fully. Some here wondered why they changed the way they were using him. Part of that may be that they had to in order to approach either sides expectations. His rare TD's were roundly celebrated by his QB and teamates. I sensed because they felt he needed them to.

All that said can't see the rationale to cut him. Nor do I see the number of calls to cut him the OP is imagining. Just the usual irrational suspects on that front who want to cut everyone when we fail. Squeeze him perhaps on that option, perhaps by incentivizing a good chunk of it. But you have to have a feel for how he'd react to that. Would he step up to prove a point or sulk over being misunderstood. I wouldn't doubt he was taking a conservative approach to last season in order to protect himself where that option was concerned. The option essentially put him in a prove it situation. And context aside, he put up numbers sufficient to.

Jason has his dead cap at $5M, but that presumes the option. If they did cut him before March 15th when his option is due, his dead cap would be $2M and could be spread over 2013-2014 (if they chose to treat him as a June 1 cut) and his cap savings would be $3.5M in 2013 and $2.5M in 2014. His cash savings would be $5M in 2013 and $8M over the two years remaining on the deal So basically they have to decide if he is worth $4M per in cash and $10M total in cap over the next two seasons or if that money freed up could be better spent.

 

[Spiral]

So are you advocating cutting Lloyd and getting a say a Deion Branch to start again? You aren't going to get starting quality #2 WR for less than what the Pats are going to pay Lloyd. Unless Welker doesn't resign or the Pats sign one of the top WRs on the market or draft a WR in the first round, the WR that would replace him would be at best the #3 or #4 option on this team.

A good #2 WR would command a contract a contract with at least a $3 million signing bonus and a $2 million salary this year. And Lloyd is already a good #2 WR.

Of course not. Branch is not going to be part of this team next year. It's obvious that the Patriots need a receiver who can stretch the defense, and Lloyd is not it. They need a downfield threat to complement Welker and the TEs. Lloyd is not that player, and he has the 5th-highest 2013 number on the team.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I think one of the discusion was Lloyd or Colston last year. Granted Llyod does not have the speed or vertical leap of colston, but his dash from the line is fast. The problem I see is his weight. Guys a 185 lbs, colstons 230 lbs. 20 more pounds on Lloyd will do wonders muscling out the smaller CB's.

The Impressive part of Llyod is his vertical. Hes only an inch below Colston. A guy 4 inches taller than him. Ive accuatly started pulling for Lloyd. Hes a solid 3 WR as some have said, but put the weight on and throw him verticale passes, he might be a solid 2. I dont think he dropped much this season, just got muscled out from what I saw. Could be very wrong about this,lol

Of course Colston is better but he's also getting paid TWICE as much. He signed a 5 year 40 million dollar contract with 19m in guarantees. Lloyd on the other hand singed for 3 years 12m. Lloyd produced 900 yards and Colston 1,100 yards. I think bang for the buck-wise, Lloyd is well worth the money we paid.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7681315/new-orleans-saints-keep-wr-marques-colston-5-year-deal

Here is the salary information:

He was paid a $3m signing bonus on a 3-year contract. His signing bonus proration is $1M per year.

In 2013, he's due a $3M option bonus, $1.9M in salary, plus a workout bonus, for a total of probably about $5M in new money. His 2013 cap number will be about $4.5M (salary plus signing bonus proration plus option bonus proration). If he's cut before the option bonus is paid, there will be $2M in dead money (year 2 and year 3 signing bonus proration). There will be about $2.5M in savings on the 2013 cap. You'd then have to go out and sign (or draft) a replacement, and that 2013 number of that replacement may higher or lower than $2.5M.

The key question is whether or not it's a good idea to be paying $5M in new money in 2013 to the third or fourth option in your offense. I say it isn't.

ROFL and you think you can get a better receiver for that 2.5m of savings? Some people aren't very good at math here.

 

[Rob0729]

Of course not. Branch is not going to be part of this team next year. It's obvious that the Patriots need a receiver who can stretch the defense, and Lloyd is not it. They need a downfield threat to complement Welker and the TEs. Lloyd is not that player, and he has the 5th-highest 2013 number on the team.

Where exactly do expect to get that deep threat and how do you expect to pay him and Welker? Any good deep threat in free agency will cost $9-10 million a year and $25-30 million I'm guarantees. That is way too much for a #2 WR. Any deep threat less than that will be an one trick pony who will need a Lloyd type of player to rotate with.

You go the draft route and you gotta wait a year for the guy to produce in the Pats' offense. Even their hits at WR like Branch took a year to be really good.

You want a deep threat to be on the field every down and you gotta replace Welker, not Lloyd. That is the only way they can afford it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

So are you advocating cutting Lloyd and getting a say a Deion Branch to start again? You aren't going to get starting quality #2 WR for less than what the Pats are going to pay Lloyd. Unless Welker doesn't resign or the Pats sign one of the top WRs on the market or draft a WR in the first round, the WR that would replace him would be at best the #3 or #4 option on this team.

A good #2 WR would command a contract a contract with at least a $3 million signing bonus and a $2 million salary this year. And Lloyd is already a good #2 WR.

I don't know who is out there, although I presume they do. That said, you can absolutely get a #2 WR for less that or equal to what the Pats are going to pay Lloyd because they are going to pay him $6M this season if he remains. People have a tendancy to keep muddling cash and cap and contract average as if they are one in the same when the are not remotely.

It's really tough to have discussions about players here because the polarizers on the board persist in making every discussion an all in or cut the bum debate. Nobody accepts that there are a multitide of shades of grey in any discussion. They obviously brought Lloyd (and Ocho) in to create a roster with sufficient options where the loss of one or even two weapons (whether via injury or coverage scheme) could not stop this offense. In the end it didn't work. Do they shift gears or settle and hope for a better result going forward. That remains to be seen.

The biggest thing Lloyd had going for him when he signed here was knowledge of the system. He still has that but whether he is capable of or willing to consistently execute it at the level to which they demand it be played here remains debatable. That would be one of my concerns were they to persue Bowe.

Branch came in here wired to fit the system. That's the key in selecting WR's here, wiring. Givens assimilated almost as quickly. (FA Welker assimilated on arrival for the same reason, wiring.) They had a tough nut to crack given what Brown and Patten had just accomplished, but in year 1 Branch still managed 1.410 APY because he was also the primary kickoff returner. By year 2 the #2 + #7 tandem was putting up more than double their rookie receiving production and more importantly each showed a capacity to rise to the occasion on the biggest stage. This team should have been laser focused on reprising that kind of WR unit scenario for the last several seasons. Maybe Daboll was brough back so they finally could take a stab at it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Of course Colston is better but he's also getting paid TWICE as much. He signed a 5 year 40 million dollar contract with 19m in guarantees. Lloyd on the other hand singed for 3 years 12m. Lloyd produced 900 yards and Colston 1,100 yards. I think bang for the buck-wise, Lloyd is well worth the money we paid.

New Orleans Saints keep WR Marques Colston with 5-year deal - ESPN



ROFL and you think you can get a better receiver for that 2.5m of savings? Some people aren't very good at math here.

Bang for the buck wise the Saints got 10 (or more that twice as many) TD's from Colston. And his deal is really a 3 year $21M deal with $17.7M guaranteed and a dead cap of $4M with $10M in cap saved if he's cut after 3 seasons...

And it's not just $2.5M in cap savings, it's $6M in cash...

We're back to the stats (absent context) are for losers arguments.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I think one of the discusion was Lloyd or Colston last year. Granted Llyod does not have the speed or vertical leap of colston, but his dash from the line is fast. The problem I see is his weight. Guys a 185 lbs, colstons 230 lbs. 20 more pounds on Lloyd will do wonders muscling out the smaller CB's.

The Impressive part of Llyod is his vertical. Hes only an inch below Colston. A guy 4 inches taller than him. Ive accuatly started pulling for Lloyd. Hes a solid 3 WR as some have said, but put the weight on and throw him verticale passes, he might be a solid 2. I dont think he dropped much this season, just got muscled out from what I saw. Could be very wrong about this,lol

32 year old WR's who put 20 lbs on aren't going to improve their game... He isn't worth throwing many vertical passes to at 185...:bricks:

 

[PittPatriot]

1. The Patriots lost a playoff game
2. The offense struggled
3. Lloyd has been flopping, post-catch, for much of the season
4. People are frustrated and looking for scapegoats

We've got people who want to ship out Welker. We've got people who are bashing Brady. We've had people bringing the "Get rid of the _______ coach" chestnuts out. It's all just noise. Use it to kill time in the offseason, or find something to do until free agency starts, because this place probably isn't going to get much more rational in the near future.

Agree with the above.
Agree with the flopping. However, nobody flops more than Deion Branch, Shane Battier, and the Dook Blue Devils.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't know who is out there, although I presume they do. That said, you can absolutely get a #2 WR for less that or equal to what the Pats are going to pay Lloyd because they are going to pay him $6M this season if he remains. People have a tendancy to keep muddling cash and cap and contract average as if they are one in the same when the are not remotely.

It's really tough to have discussions about players here because the polarizers on the board persist in making every discussion an all in or cut the bum debate. Nobody accepts that there are a multitide of shades of grey in any discussion. They obviously brought Lloyd (and Ocho) in to create a roster with sufficient options where the loss of one or even two weapons (whether via injury or coverage scheme) could not stop this offense. In the end it didn't work. Do they shift gears or settle and hope for a better result going forward. That remains to be seen.

The biggest thing Lloyd had going for him when he signed here was knowledge of the system. He still has that but whether he is capable of or willing to consistently execute it at the level to which they demand it be played here remains debatable. That would be one of my concerns were they to persue Bowe.

Branch came in here wired to fit the system. That's the key in selecting WR's here, wiring. Givens assimilated almost as quickly. (FA Welker assimilated on arrival for the same reason, wiring.) They had a tough nut to crack given what Brown and Patten had just accomplished, but in year 1 Branch still managed 1.410 APY because he was also the primary kickoff returner. By year 2 the #2 + #7 tandem was putting up more than double their rookie receiving production and more importantly each showed a capacity to rise to the occasion on the biggest stage. This team should have been laser focused on reprising that kind of WR unit scenario for the last several seasons. Maybe Daboll was brough back so they finally could take a stab at it.

If you could get a deep threat that would make defenses respect the deep threat while being able to run the route tree for less than what Lloyd is getting, he would be here now. I think you might be able to get an one trick pony deep threat OR a guy similar to Lloyd or Branch a few years ago, but not a combination of both. A deep threat who can run the route tree demands big money.

I was responding to a post to replace Lloyd with deep threat not just another # 2 WR.

 

[Spiral]

If you could get a deep threat that would make defenses respect the deep threat while being able to run the route tree for less than what Lloyd is getting, he would be here now. I think you might be able to get an one trick pony deep threat OR a guy similar to Lloyd or Branch a few years ago, but not a combination of both. A deep threat who can run the route tree demands big money.

I was responding to a post to replace Lloyd with deep threat not just another # 2 WR.

Randy Moss was never able to run a route tree. Torrey Smith can't either.

 

[Rob0729]

Randy Moss was never able to run a route tree. Torrey Smith can't either.

Torrey Smith had 25 less catches (49 catches for the year), 56 less yards (855 yards), 12 less first downs (38 first downs), and 4 more TDs (8 TDs) than Lloyd did this year as a #1 or #2 target for Flacco. If he was on the Pats, those numbers would certainly go down. So you want "upgrade" the #2 WR spot by getting a guy who is likely to catch less balls, get less yards, and convert less TDs than the guy he is replacing.

And still the thing is that Smith would probably garner huge money on the open market even though he is vastly overrated because he is a flashy player eventhough he is easy to neutralize with physical play.

Torrey Smith is one of the most overrated WRs in the NFL. He plays like a stud one week and the takes the next two or three weeks off. Let the Ravens keep him. Way too inconsistent (he had 7 games where he caught 2 or less passes granted one was a game where Harbaugh rested the starters in the second half). He wasn't much of a factor vs. the Pats two Sundays ago. Dennard shut him down with physical play and the Pats got burnt by Boldin and Pitta.

As for Moss, he was more than just a deep threat here. He did run other routes, but the difference is he was an elite WR. Again, you get a Moss type of WR, you need to let Welker go, not Lloyd. You couldn't afford to pay a Moss type of receiver and Welker. The Pats got him cheap in 2007 because he was already under contract and his reputation had taken a huge hit. He quickly became one of the highest paid WRs in the NFL the following year.