Week 3 Thoughts

[patsox23]

I don't concede the point that Maroney is being fed the ball at the goal line AT ALL. Why do you think this? I guess he's had a couple carries inside the 10, but for the most part it's been Morris and Heath Evans.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I agree that Lomo needs to be better at getting the "tough" yards, but your assessment of his pass protection is horrendously flawed. If anything, the team was surprised at just how good Maroney was as a rookie at pass blocking and he is still decent. He isn't as good as Faulk or Morris, nor is he the receiver those guys are and that is why he typically gives way on obvious passing downs. But I haven't seen a single play where Maroney did a poor job at pass protection.

I think you are taking liberties with that one.

BTW, obviously injuries are always a big consideration, but if Maroney continues his gradual improvement he will be more than worth th investment NE has in him. I think people forget just how many 1st rounders amount to nothing. Just because you can point to a guy like Addai and say that he has been better does not mean that anyone should be down on Maroney. There is a reason the team loves him.

I think Maroney is at his worst in pass protection, honestly, from what I have seen compared to other areas of his game, and maybe getting the tough yards against a stacked box. Perhaps swinging gate is a bad way to express it. He has been pushed out of the way in the plays that kind of stuck out in my mind.

He will improve, that is not an issue in my mind. But my getting flamed by a few guys for suggesting that he needs to improve his game in several areas seems a little reactionary.

 

[Oswlek]

Okay, I imagine this has been brought up in the Maroney discussion, but I tune out when the wars start. Just stop if you've read this before:

Maroney is being fed the ball in goal line situations. Maroney is not crossing the stripe.

It is evident that BB is just waiting for that day when he can think of Maroney as an every-down back, and let the role-players come in as a luxury, not a necessity.

I certainly wouldn't call anything on our offense "sub-par" right now, but Andy is right. He has a ways to go.

Just taking goal line situations as an example: It is frequent for a rookie or second year guy to have trouble getting over the stripe. For a lot of running backs it's the single hardest thing to do.

There are guys that never get over that, and they become great between the 20s. There are other guys that never have a problem with it. And then, there are guys that work through and suddenly a light goes on -- and they can make that goal line carry (as we're reminded about 14 times every Sunday by that Reggie Bush commercial.)

Maroney's not there yet. We don't know if he will get there. Unless you're a fantasy freak, that's fine, so long as Morris, Evans, and/or the passing game can punch the ball in.

But I think we all want to have that reliable every-down back, if Maroney can be that guy in the future.

So yeah, why not say the guy has a ways to go? Sure it's demanding. Sure he's getting the 4.7 per carry. Sure that's giving you more than most guys. But coming in we wanted a complete back, and Maroney looks like he can be that guy. So he has a ways to go.

PFnV

IIRC, Maroney has had one attempt that could be considered "goal line" and that was against SD late in the game. He was stopped just short of the first down leading to Morris' 4th down TD.

Of course, his lack of carries is indicative of the coaches believing that Morris is the better option, so your larger point still stands. But there really hasn't been a feeding and failure process.

 

[Oswlek]

I think Maroney is at his worst in pass protection, honestly, from what I have seen compared to other areas of his game, and maybe getting the tough yards against a stacked box. Perhaps swinging gate is a bad way to express it. He has been pushed out of the way in the plays that kind of stuck out in my mind.

He will improve, that is not an issue in my mind. But my getting flamed by a few guys for suggesting that he needs to improve his game in several areas seems a little reactionary.

He does need to improve. But I still disagree with you strongly about his pass pro. He is at worst average and I would classify him as decent. Frankly, I have not seen any plays where he was pushed out of the way, but I haven't seen every single play of the season.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

He does need to improve. But I still disagree with you strongly about his pass pro. He is at worst average and I would classify him as decent. Frankly, I have not seen any plays where he was pushed out of the way, but I haven't seen every single play of the season.

Do you have the Chargers game on tape? Maroney was getting pushed aside in pass protection, leading to Brady getting sacked. He got flattened by Merriman like he wasn't even there, and we went three and out at an important time in the game.

I am sure that he will come along, but he looks a bit like a rookie still in some areas.

I like his speed, like his talent. He needs work on his game however.

 

[patsox23]

I think we certainly can find some common ground - miracle of miracles! - in that the area of LoMar's game in most need of improvement is pass-protection. (BTW, that's true of the vast majority of top-notch runners.) Where we likely diverge is HOW good/bad he is at that skill-set. I think he has, to borrow a phrase, "a ways to go" in terms of that aspect of his game, but I think he's certainly decent at it.

 

[jct]

I thought that the challenges that we lost on got this team pi$$ed off, and the Bills paid for it. I do not believe Brady fumbled, but do understand there was no way the camera could show it conclusively. I am 100% certain Edwards stepped on the line, and we had a safety, and I have no clue how they didnt overturn that. I could see then the team was getting pi$$ed, and it was basically over then.

Maroney's quick moves and vision for an opening fits in well with the explosive passing game we have.
I dont think the D is getting enough credit. The O is putting up so many points the D goes unnoticed. Other than 1 drive the Bills were totally shut down. (Ironically there are posts crying about the defense not getting off the field on 3rd down, because of one drive. I now of 31 other defenses that would be perfectly happy with failing to get off the field on 3rd down in one drive over a whole game)

Isnt it time to start considering whether we have the best OL in the NFL?

I've never been a 'root for stats' guy, but I admit since we havent had to worry about outcome in the second half yet, I keep an eye on Bradys stats, and root for the 80% completion mark. Simply because it is something no one has ever come close to. I like the idea of Brady adding the best statistical year ever by a QB to his resume (if he keeps this up, he will have that) AS LONG AS IT DOESNT GET IN THE WAY OF WINNING. In other words, once the game is in hand, the stats are fun.

Moss' long TD looked like a fantastic catch to me, reaching far to his right. After the replay though, I think he could have been right under it, and his position was to keep the DB away, changing it in my mind from great catch, to great play making a reasonably easy catch possible.

Gostkowski may be the best KO man in the NFL.

I remember games in the SB years where we would punt 10 times and win. We aren't going to punt 10 times THIS MONTH. (4 so far)

Our total offense is more than double the total defense we are allowing. Has that ever been done for a season? I can't imagine it has.

We are scoring over 3 times more than we allow. I'd bet that hasnt been done over a season before either.

My thinking during the Bills one drive of the day:
We actually have 'relief pitchers' on defense, especially when Rodney and Sey are back. If we are allowing a drive, we can bring in a replacement to shut it down. Now we have Seau, and we could use him to sub any of the 4 LBs, switching the others around. We will have Green and Sanders on the bench as well down the road. We also have Meriwhether and Gay. Mike Wright hasn't played yet, but in past seasons has subbed in, including during key parts of a game. I don't remember having such depth that we could send in 4-5 subs to our base D and not notice hardly a difference.

3 weeks can be 'hot' and not sustained. 3 weeks could be showing the gap between talent, and be sustained. Too early to tell which it is, but if, in fact, this team is as good over a season as they have been in 3 weeks, the talk will turn to best ever. No way that conversation is near ready to have, but for 3 weeks they absolutely have played at that level. Sustaining it for 16 more of course, is another story.

Andy, I share your enthusiasm and agree with most of your conclusions.
However to play devils advocate, we need to consider 1 more possibility.
Maybe we have not played the best competition yet. Maybe those teams are pretenders and we will see better teams in the Steelers, Indy, Cowboys and GB??? Just a thought.

 

[Ring 6]

Actually you are wrong.

The only thing we can possibly say after three games is 'may turn out to be one of the better lines, after a full season of play'. I am as encouraged as anybody about the consistent play they have shown.

This is a line that has had trouble putting two solid halves of play together for at least the last two seasons. The fact that they have done their job for three games, with extra help, and with Brady, Welker and Moss running the show does not imply that they are suddenly the BEST.

I almost never call anything 'THE BEST' for that matter, because I certainly am not smart enough to figure out a simply impossible amount of variables in any given situation.

I think the line looks consistent through three games, which to me is quite ten times more important than taking the kneejerk route and saying that they are simply 'THE BEST'.

This line has been inconsistent for years, and to say that the same group of guys is the best that the NFL has to offer after only three games is a fool's call.

The reason I even brought that up in the first place is because it is a pet peeve of mine when people rush to conclusions so quickly. A leopard doesn't change his spots. Our OL is a lunchpail group of guys who have never consistently been good at both pass protection and run blocking over the course of the same season, let alone two games in a row. At this point, I simply will not declare them 'THE BEST' after three games.

To tell me I am wrong, you must prove that I am wrong, which you have not done.

If you feel unqualified to call anything THE BEST, how are you qualified to call something NOT THE BEST????? If the Pats OL is not the best, then someone else's must be. But if you are unqualified to say who is, then how do you have an opinion?

You have gone at length ripping an OL that has done a tremendous job for a very long time protecting Tom Brady, and that has had above average run blocking results over that time.
You have failed to name a SINGLE OL that has done a better job.

Perhaps I can help you become "smart enough" to judge what is the best.
There are 32 OLs in the NFL. If you look at HOW THEY PLAY, you will narrow down the objective argument to a handful of teams. The subjective information gives a narrow field and then you MAKE AN OPINION.
I do not know what purpose you are striving for by ARROGANTLY writing voluminous posts concluding with you refuse to state an opinion until later. It is also very curious how you post so many words about yourself and how you think, without offering an opinion or conclusion.

Bottom line is this. The Patriot OL has done as good a job protecting Brady this year as any OL has done in protecting its QB. The results are obvious. Additionally, the Patriots are in the top 5 in the NFL in rushing. Anyone who doesnt think this deserves consideration as the best in the league, either is just being argumentative, has an ax to grind, or doesnt know anything about football.

 

[DaBruinz]

Well you better not breath any of this to that F'N joke called Nordy, or to Patsox.

I am not going to annoint Maroney until he plays a healthy season and looks like a top draft pick in most areas of his game. Period.

Until then, he has a long way to go. Simple.

I am not looking to criticise anyone, I am simply looking at Maroney like BB would or any level headed person would. Talented, and needs to work on his game in several areas. He is not putting up much resistance in pass protection, for starters. Yeah, that counts.

Did I mention the OL is much improved before people start having a fit about that as well? Best in the league? No.

Maroney has not arrived all in one week. It is a process.

I don't know what games you have watched, but the ones I have watched have shown Maroney get better with each carry and with each week. Also, Maroney was pretty damn good the last two weeks in picking up the rush.

 

[DaBruinz]

I am not discounting ANYTHING. I am suggesting that as of week three I am not going to declare the Pats OL as the best in the league. They have a long history now of not being the best, and it will take a rational person more than three weeks to make the snap judgement that they are the best versus they are improved and playing consistently, which is good enough.

The basic problem here is that Andy and Patsox have their knickers on backwards because I made a couple very easy to understand statements that they vehemently disagree with.

Number 1- The verdict ain't out on the OL just yet.

How about YOU GUYS compare every single O-LINE in this league to our OL over three weeks. Break down ALL the plays, isolate only the 5 immediate linemen, and project how they would look with Brady and Moss running the ship.

How about you guys do this extensive review in massive detail to support your claims? Or is it simply a STRAWMAN argument to suggest that I statistically compare every player in the league at the OL position if I don't happen to agree that we can draw season long conclusions about the OL based on week 3?

The fact is that it takes an enormous amount of real data to even begin to project who is the best OL in the league, and I always try not to simply declare the home team as the best this or that without evidence. ESPECIALLY AFTER WEEK 3!

Number 2- Maroney is not a complete player yet.

Number 3- the team is playing well and the OL is more consistent than in the past and Maroney is still learning, so why do we need to jump to conclusions?

Actually, it doesn't take an enormous amount of raw data to begin to project who the best O-line is. Only people who want to arrive at paralysis by Analysis think that it takes an enormous amount of data. Or someone who just wants to let others get bogged down in minutia.

No one claimed that Maroney was a complete player and it was ignorance on your part of insinuating otherwise.

You were the one who insisted on opening your mouth and piping in when you didn't need to. Andy tends to be one of the most level headed posters on this board and you have torn into him.

 

[Ring 6]

I can't speak for AJ, but the reason I have gotten annoyed with you is that you continually misrepresent what the argument is as some bizarre kind of backpedal on the words YOU used before.

NONE of these 3 points has been argued by any of us. Not a single one of them. Please stop promoting the fiction that they have been. That's essentially all I'm asking from you.

I dont understand why someone screws around with a thread that asks people to make JUDGMENTS BASED ON WHAT THEY HAVE SEEN, by responding, "Its too early, so I will be negative".

I am not sure whether this comes from an issue with attitude or intelect, but I cannot understand how someone will ARGUE that they wont put forth an opinion on TODAY because they want to wait to see more. That is my frustration in this thread. We are offering opinions on what we see, which will turn out to be right or wrong, not waiting until everything is done, so the answer is obvious

 

[FloridaPatsFan]

From what I have seen so far, Morris has a great 5 yard acceleration to the point of the line that he is attacking. He does not hesitate to get through the smallest of openings.

Maroney, on the other hand, does show patience for the play to develop and find the right moment to burst upfield. I think his patience, while frustrating at times, is a great instinct to have. When he does find a hole to run through, he has potential to get 10 yards + on every carry. Dillon, looked like he was running through sand the last few years.

Maroney, like most inexperienced RB's in the NFL will take time to learn to pick up the block on passing downs.

From what I have seen of Addai this year, he is slightly better than Maroney but I don't think Addai will last the season. The guy is getting popped a couple of times a game.

 

[Bostonian1962]

I'm pumped of course but I remember several years when the Colts were blowing everyone out and the Pats were just finding ways to win. The finding a way to win team won the superbowls. I'm not taking this for granted, and I'm not saying that the Pats are...just sayin.

A very valid point for sure. The biggest difference that should be in the Pats favor is those Indy teams didn't have good defenses, and the Pats may end up with better than a good defense. It could very well be great.

I love the fact that they look so good early with their best CB not yet playing the amount he will be playing, and of course, without Richard and Rodney.

I also love the fact that Green and Sanders are not just buying time until the starters get back, but are both playing at a high level.

 

[Ring 6]

Actually, it doesn't take an enormous amount of raw data to begin to project who the best O-line is. Only people who want to arrive at paralysis by Analysis think that it takes an enormous amount of data. Or someone who just wants to let others get bogged down in minutia.

No one claimed that Maroney was a complete player and it was ignorance on your part of insinuating otherwise.

You were the one who insisted on opening your mouth and piping in when you didn't need to. Andy tends to be one of the most level headed posters on this board and you have torn into him.

Thanks for the complement.
I'll stand behind my point, which basically is, you are going to have to show me an OL that is playing awfully good, to convince me any other OL is playing better than this one.
I wasn't interested in subterfuge like implying somehow our OL gets more 'help' than others, or recreating history to slam the OL by saying 'well it wasn't that good before, so I wont say its godd yet" Which, by the way many 'experts' have called it a top 5 OL BEFORE this year.
I have a hard time finding any fault in this OL through these 3 games.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

Sammy Morris is tough!

 

[DaBruinz]

Thanks for the complement.
I'll stand behind my point, which basically is, you are going to have to show me an OL that is playing awfully good, to convince me any other OL is playing better than this one.
I wasn't interested in subterfuge like implying somehow our OL gets more 'help' than others, or recreating history to slam the OL by saying 'well it wasn't that good before, so I wont say its godd yet" Which, by the way many 'experts' have called it a top 5 OL BEFORE this year.
I have a hard time finding any fault in this OL through these 3 games.

Through 3 games, the Pats are tied for 2nd in sacks allowed with 3. They are tied with Indianapolis and New Orleans. Arizona is ranked #1 with 2 sacks allowed.

The Pats have had 88 passing plays with 70 completions. The Cardinals have had 105 with 61 completions. Indianapolis has had 101 with 66 completions. And New Orleans has had 85 with 54 completions.

The Pats Rushing had 107 attempts for 433 yards. That is the 2nd most attempts in the league. But it should also be noted that they spent almost an entire quarter running the ball yesterday so as to NOT run up the score. The Pats top 2 RBs have 87 attempts for 403 yards. That's 4.67 ypc

The Colts have 80 rushing attempts for 337 yards. The Colts top 2 RBs have 78 attempts for 325 yards. That's 4.167 YPC.
The Cardinals have 78 rushing attempts for 354 yards. The Cardinals top 2 RBs have 67 attempts for 294 yards. That is 4.38 YPC
The Saints have 52 rushes for 309 yards. The Saints top 2 RBs have 42 attempts for 152 yards. That is 3.6 YPC.

So, the only area that the Pats seem to "falter" in is that they've allowed 3 sacks on 88 attempts compared to Indy (3 sacks on 101 attempts) and Arizona (2 sacks on 105) attempts and New Orleans (3 sacks on 85 attempts).

Otherwise, the Pats have a better YPC amongst their top RBs and Brady completes more passes. Not to mention that they've scored 13 TDs on offense. Which is tied for the most in the league with Dallas.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I dont understand why someone screws around with a thread that asks people to make JUDGMENTS BASED ON WHAT THEY HAVE SEEN, by responding, "Its too early, so I will be negative".

I am not sure whether this comes from an issue with attitude or intelect,

It's a mental disease of cognition. Very common to Red Sox fans who get hopefull only to see it dashed, time and again. Eventually, they become unable to see anythng good untill it's over and done.

 

[patsox23]

I don't know what games you have watched, but the ones I have watched have shown Maroney get better with each carry and with each week. Also, Maroney was pretty damn good the last two weeks in picking up the rush.

You're wrong, DaBruinz. You see, Maroney has "a long ways to go" in "most areas" of being a RB. I didn't know this because I was too busy insisting that this is "not a process" and that Maroney is "already a Pro Bowler" because he has "arrived." Get your head on straight!

 

[Ring 6]

You're wrong, DaBruinz. You see, Maroney has "a long ways to go" in "most areas" of being a RB. I didn't know this because I was too busy insisting that this is "not a process" and that Maroney is "already a Pro Bowler" because he has "arrived." Get your head on straight!

Patsox,
Why don't you get a grip and realize that we cannot talk about what Maroney is doing today with any prescience until he has retired.

 

[patsox23]

Patsox,
Why don't you get a grip and realize that we cannot talk about what Maroney is doing today with any prescience until he has retired.

d%#*!@t, AJ, we are talking about a Hall of Famer here! RIGHT NOW.