patsox23
Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
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CLICK HERE to Register for a free account and login for a smoother ad-free experience. It's easy, and only takes a few moments.I agree that Lomo needs to be better at getting the "tough" yards, but your assessment of his pass protection is horrendously flawed. If anything, the team was surprised at just how good Maroney was as a rookie at pass blocking and he is still decent. He isn't as good as Faulk or Morris, nor is he the receiver those guys are and that is why he typically gives way on obvious passing downs. But I haven't seen a single play where Maroney did a poor job at pass protection.
I think you are taking liberties with that one.
BTW, obviously injuries are always a big consideration, but if Maroney continues his gradual improvement he will be more than worth th investment NE has in him. I think people forget just how many 1st rounders amount to nothing. Just because you can point to a guy like Addai and say that he has been better does not mean that anyone should be down on Maroney. There is a reason the team loves him.
Okay, I imagine this has been brought up in the Maroney discussion, but I tune out when the wars start. Just stop if you've read this before:
Maroney is being fed the ball in goal line situations. Maroney is not crossing the stripe.
It is evident that BB is just waiting for that day when he can think of Maroney as an every-down back, and let the role-players come in as a luxury, not a necessity.
I certainly wouldn't call anything on our offense "sub-par" right now, but Andy is right. He has a ways to go.
Just taking goal line situations as an example: It is frequent for a rookie or second year guy to have trouble getting over the stripe. For a lot of running backs it's the single hardest thing to do.
There are guys that never get over that, and they become great between the 20s. There are other guys that never have a problem with it. And then, there are guys that work through and suddenly a light goes on -- and they can make that goal line carry (as we're reminded about 14 times every Sunday by that Reggie Bush commercial.)
Maroney's not there yet. We don't know if he will get there. Unless you're a fantasy freak, that's fine, so long as Morris, Evans, and/or the passing game can punch the ball in.
But I think we all want to have that reliable every-down back, if Maroney can be that guy in the future.
So yeah, why not say the guy has a ways to go? Sure it's demanding. Sure he's getting the 4.7 per carry. Sure that's giving you more than most guys. But coming in we wanted a complete back, and Maroney looks like he can be that guy. So he has a ways to go.
PFnV
I think Maroney is at his worst in pass protection, honestly, from what I have seen compared to other areas of his game, and maybe getting the tough yards against a stacked box. Perhaps swinging gate is a bad way to express it. He has been pushed out of the way in the plays that kind of stuck out in my mind.
He will improve, that is not an issue in my mind. But my getting flamed by a few guys for suggesting that he needs to improve his game in several areas seems a little reactionary.
He does need to improve. But I still disagree with you strongly about his pass pro. He is at worst average and I would classify him as decent. Frankly, I have not seen any plays where he was pushed out of the way, but I haven't seen every single play of the season.
I thought that the challenges that we lost on got this team pi$$ed off, and the Bills paid for it. I do not believe Brady fumbled, but do understand there was no way the camera could show it conclusively. I am 100% certain Edwards stepped on the line, and we had a safety, and I have no clue how they didnt overturn that. I could see then the team was getting pi$$ed, and it was basically over then.
Maroney's quick moves and vision for an opening fits in well with the explosive passing game we have.
I dont think the D is getting enough credit. The O is putting up so many points the D goes unnoticed. Other than 1 drive the Bills were totally shut down. (Ironically there are posts crying about the defense not getting off the field on 3rd down, because of one drive. I now of 31 other defenses that would be perfectly happy with failing to get off the field on 3rd down in one drive over a whole game)
Isnt it time to start considering whether we have the best OL in the NFL?
I've never been a 'root for stats' guy, but I admit since we havent had to worry about outcome in the second half yet, I keep an eye on Bradys stats, and root for the 80% completion mark. Simply because it is something no one has ever come close to. I like the idea of Brady adding the best statistical year ever by a QB to his resume (if he keeps this up, he will have that) AS LONG AS IT DOESNT GET IN THE WAY OF WINNING. In other words, once the game is in hand, the stats are fun.
Moss' long TD looked like a fantastic catch to me, reaching far to his right. After the replay though, I think he could have been right under it, and his position was to keep the DB away, changing it in my mind from great catch, to great play making a reasonably easy catch possible.
Gostkowski may be the best KO man in the NFL.
I remember games in the SB years where we would punt 10 times and win. We aren't going to punt 10 times THIS MONTH. (4 so far)
Our total offense is more than double the total defense we are allowing. Has that ever been done for a season? I can't imagine it has.
We are scoring over 3 times more than we allow. I'd bet that hasnt been done over a season before either.
My thinking during the Bills one drive of the day:
We actually have 'relief pitchers' on defense, especially when Rodney and Sey are back. If we are allowing a drive, we can bring in a replacement to shut it down. Now we have Seau, and we could use him to sub any of the 4 LBs, switching the others around. We will have Green and Sanders on the bench as well down the road. We also have Meriwhether and Gay. Mike Wright hasn't played yet, but in past seasons has subbed in, including during key parts of a game. I don't remember having such depth that we could send in 4-5 subs to our base D and not notice hardly a difference.
3 weeks can be 'hot' and not sustained. 3 weeks could be showing the gap between talent, and be sustained. Too early to tell which it is, but if, in fact, this team is as good over a season as they have been in 3 weeks, the talk will turn to best ever. No way that conversation is near ready to have, but for 3 weeks they absolutely have played at that level. Sustaining it for 16 more of course, is another story.
Actually you are wrong.
The only thing we can possibly say after three games is 'may turn out to be one of the better lines, after a full season of play'. I am as encouraged as anybody about the consistent play they have shown.
This is a line that has had trouble putting two solid halves of play together for at least the last two seasons. The fact that they have done their job for three games, with extra help, and with Brady, Welker and Moss running the show does not imply that they are suddenly the BEST.
I almost never call anything 'THE BEST' for that matter, because I certainly am not smart enough to figure out a simply impossible amount of variables in any given situation.
I think the line looks consistent through three games, which to me is quite ten times more important than taking the kneejerk route and saying that they are simply 'THE BEST'.
This line has been inconsistent for years, and to say that the same group of guys is the best that the NFL has to offer after only three games is a fool's call.
The reason I even brought that up in the first place is because it is a pet peeve of mine when people rush to conclusions so quickly. A leopard doesn't change his spots. Our OL is a lunchpail group of guys who have never consistently been good at both pass protection and run blocking over the course of the same season, let alone two games in a row. At this point, I simply will not declare them 'THE BEST' after three games.
Well you better not breath any of this to that F'N joke called Nordy, or to Patsox.
I am not going to annoint Maroney until he plays a healthy season and looks like a top draft pick in most areas of his game. Period.
Until then, he has a long way to go. Simple.
I am not looking to criticise anyone, I am simply looking at Maroney like BB would or any level headed person would. Talented, and needs to work on his game in several areas. He is not putting up much resistance in pass protection, for starters. Yeah, that counts.
Did I mention the OL is much improved before people start having a fit about that as well? Best in the league? No.
Maroney has not arrived all in one week. It is a process.
I am not discounting ANYTHING. I am suggesting that as of week three I am not going to declare the Pats OL as the best in the league. They have a long history now of not being the best, and it will take a rational person more than three weeks to make the snap judgement that they are the best versus they are improved and playing consistently, which is good enough.
The basic problem here is that Andy and Patsox have their knickers on backwards because I made a couple very easy to understand statements that they vehemently disagree with.
Number 1- The verdict ain't out on the OL just yet.
How about YOU GUYS compare every single O-LINE in this league to our OL over three weeks. Break down ALL the plays, isolate only the 5 immediate linemen, and project how they would look with Brady and Moss running the ship.
How about you guys do this extensive review in massive detail to support your claims? Or is it simply a STRAWMAN argument to suggest that I statistically compare every player in the league at the OL position if I don't happen to agree that we can draw season long conclusions about the OL based on week 3?
The fact is that it takes an enormous amount of real data to even begin to project who is the best OL in the league, and I always try not to simply declare the home team as the best this or that without evidence. ESPECIALLY AFTER WEEK 3!
Number 2- Maroney is not a complete player yet.
Number 3- the team is playing well and the OL is more consistent than in the past and Maroney is still learning, so why do we need to jump to conclusions?
I can't speak for AJ, but the reason I have gotten annoyed with you is that you continually misrepresent what the argument is as some bizarre kind of backpedal on the words YOU used before.
NONE of these 3 points has been argued by any of us. Not a single one of them. Please stop promoting the fiction that they have been. That's essentially all I'm asking from you.
I'm pumped of course but I remember several years when the Colts were blowing everyone out and the Pats were just finding ways to win. The finding a way to win team won the superbowls. I'm not taking this for granted, and I'm not saying that the Pats are...just sayin.
Actually, it doesn't take an enormous amount of raw data to begin to project who the best O-line is. Only people who want to arrive at paralysis by Analysis think that it takes an enormous amount of data. Or someone who just wants to let others get bogged down in minutia.
No one claimed that Maroney was a complete player and it was ignorance on your part of insinuating otherwise.
You were the one who insisted on opening your mouth and piping in when you didn't need to. Andy tends to be one of the most level headed posters on this board and you have torn into him.
Thanks for the complement.
I'll stand behind my point, which basically is, you are going to have to show me an OL that is playing awfully good, to convince me any other OL is playing better than this one.
I wasn't interested in subterfuge like implying somehow our OL gets more 'help' than others, or recreating history to slam the OL by saying 'well it wasn't that good before, so I wont say its godd yet" Which, by the way many 'experts' have called it a top 5 OL BEFORE this year.
I have a hard time finding any fault in this OL through these 3 games.
I dont understand why someone screws around with a thread that asks people to make JUDGMENTS BASED ON WHAT THEY HAVE SEEN, by responding, "Its too early, so I will be negative".
I am not sure whether this comes from an issue with attitude or intelect,
I don't know what games you have watched, but the ones I have watched have shown Maroney get better with each carry and with each week. Also, Maroney was pretty damn good the last two weeks in picking up the rush.
You're wrong, DaBruinz. You see, Maroney has "a long ways to go" in "most areas" of being a RB. I didn't know this because I was too busy insisting that this is "not a process" and that Maroney is "already a Pro Bowler" because he has "arrived." Get your head on straight!
Patsox,
Why don't you get a grip and realize that we cannot talk about what Maroney is doing today with any prescience until he has retired.