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Week 3 Thoughts

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AndyJohnson, Sep 24, 2007.

  1. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I thought that the challenges that we lost on got this team pi$$ed off, and the Bills paid for it. I do not believe Brady fumbled, but do understand there was no way the camera could show it conclusively. I am 100% certain Edwards stepped on the line, and we had a safety, and I have no clue how they didnt overturn that. I could see then the team was getting pi$$ed, and it was basically over then.

    Maroney's quick moves and vision for an opening fits in well with the explosive passing game we have.
    I dont think the D is getting enough credit. The O is putting up so many points the D goes unnoticed. Other than 1 drive the Bills were totally shut down. (Ironically there are posts crying about the defense not getting off the field on 3rd down, because of one drive. I now of 31 other defenses that would be perfectly happy with failing to get off the field on 3rd down in one drive over a whole game)

    Isnt it time to start considering whether we have the best OL in the NFL?

    I've never been a 'root for stats' guy, but I admit since we havent had to worry about outcome in the second half yet, I keep an eye on Bradys stats, and root for the 80% completion mark. Simply because it is something no one has ever come close to. I like the idea of Brady adding the best statistical year ever by a QB to his resume (if he keeps this up, he will have that) AS LONG AS IT DOESNT GET IN THE WAY OF WINNING. In other words, once the game is in hand, the stats are fun.

    Moss' long TD looked like a fantastic catch to me, reaching far to his right. After the replay though, I think he could have been right under it, and his position was to keep the DB away, changing it in my mind from great catch, to great play making a reasonably easy catch possible.

    Gostkowski may be the best KO man in the NFL.

    I remember games in the SB years where we would punt 10 times and win. We aren't going to punt 10 times THIS MONTH. (4 so far)

    Our total offense is more than double the total defense we are allowing. Has that ever been done for a season? I can't imagine it has.

    We are scoring over 3 times more than we allow. I'd bet that hasnt been done over a season before either.

    My thinking during the Bills one drive of the day:
    We actually have 'relief pitchers' on defense, especially when Rodney and Sey are back. If we are allowing a drive, we can bring in a replacement to shut it down. Now we have Seau, and we could use him to sub any of the 4 LBs, switching the others around. We will have Green and Sanders on the bench as well down the road. We also have Meriwhether and Gay. Mike Wright hasn't played yet, but in past seasons has subbed in, including during key parts of a game. I don't remember having such depth that we could send in 4-5 subs to our base D and not notice hardly a difference.

    3 weeks can be 'hot' and not sustained. 3 weeks could be showing the gap between talent, and be sustained. Too early to tell which it is, but if, in fact, this team is as good over a season as they have been in 3 weeks, the talk will turn to best ever. No way that conversation is near ready to have, but for 3 weeks they absolutely have played at that level. Sustaining it for 16 more of course, is another story.
  2. 5 Rings for Brady!!

    5 Rings for Brady!! Rookie

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    No, it is not time to even consider whether we have the best OL in football unless you mean best front 7. But the problem there is that most teams only use 5 up front. Our basic 5 seem much improved as a unit.

    Maroney has a LONG way to go. Nice to see him have a good game, something to build on. He did well against the Bengals last year, so maybe he can gain some more momentum next week.

    Overall, the team looks great through three games and should have a good season.
  3. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Rookie

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    The O-line has really come together beyond what I expected, at least so early in the season. It certainly sets the table for all those weapons.

    Damn, this season is shaping up to be FUN.
  4. Nordy

    Nordy Rookie

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    Man some of you people are a f'n joke. Maroney is averaging 4.7 yards a carry yet all you're doing is knocking the guy. It's ridiculous. A long way to go? Give me a break.
  5. njpatsfan

    njpatsfan Rookie

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    Great post as always Andy.

    Defense is absolutely not getting enough credit. Offense can't score if they are not on the field. Check out the stats that I posted on that other thread:

    We are absolutely physically punishing teams on both sides of the ball. Both SD and Bills D lines were done by midway through the 3Q.

    Anyone see Mel Mitchell's crushing hit on the kick returner ? I'm watching for his number on all ST plays from now on.

    R
  6. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    He clearly has the talent as a pure RB, so I'm happy to see him develop that. I'm confident he'll get better there, and he is already quite good.

    In other areas of his game, blitz pickup and adjusting to screen passes, he needs a lot of work and it's obvious that Faulk is far far better in that regard. Faulk, though, is pretty much the gold standard, so it's not a fair comparison, but Maroney is a bit dangerous in pass protection.
  7. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    I honestly don't know what you people want. The guys is averaging 80 yards per game while splitting carries and 4.7 yards per carry. What do you want, you want him to average 6 yards per carry? He won't have "made it" until he puts up Jim Brown-level numbers? This is INSANE. This is the height of reaching for something to complain about - or for reading far too much into his occasional negative runs.

    If you want to be negative, look at defense in the red zone. Criticizing Maroney's play to this degree is ridiculous and unfounded.
  8. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why wouldn't our OL be considered among the best in the NFL? You didnt give a reason.
    Which OLs do you think are better, and have played better? You must have a long list if you don't even consider the possibility.
  9. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    AJ, they can't possibly be among the best, what with Laurence Maroney flailing away behind the LOS, trying to get on track for that "long way to go" he has.
  10. 5 Rings for Brady!!

    5 Rings for Brady!! Rookie

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    Well you better not breath any of this to that F'N joke called Nordy, or to Patsox.

    I am not going to annoint Maroney until he plays a healthy season and looks like a top draft pick in most areas of his game. Period.

    Until then, he has a long way to go. Simple.

    I am not looking to criticise anyone, I am simply looking at Maroney like BB would or any level headed person would. Talented, and needs to work on his game in several areas. He is not putting up much resistance in pass protection, for starters. Yeah, that counts.

    Did I mention the OL is much improved before people start having a fit about that as well? Best in the league? No.

    Maroney has not arrived all in one week. It is a process.
  11. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    The thing is, you're not making an argument. I'd say it's not compelling, but it's not even that. You've offered nothing to compel. There's no "there" there.

    Please stop making phony, false, straw-man arguments. NO ONE IS SAYING IT ISN'T "A PROCESS," but your posts seem to indicate that he has shown next to nothing in his development. Instead of trying to distract everyone from the fact that you didn't think this through, why not take on the criticisms with which we've lacerated your arguments:

    He's averaging 4.7 yards per carry, and 80 yards per game. He ran the ball at a 5.4 ypc clip yesterday. He's looked explosive more often than not. All you're coming at us with is that he's not as solid in pass-protect as Kevin Faulk? Can you please address this issue. These STATISTICS. Thanks.

    And he hasn't looked like a top draft pick in most areas of his game? REALLY?! How can you POSSIBLY say that? Running - dynamic, explosive. Catching the ball - surprisingly adept, better than expected coming out of college. Breaking tackles - among the BEST IN THE NFL last year. Speed - fantastic, elite. As a bonus, KICK RETURNS last year - ELITE. Pass protect - not great, but not awful in the least. Very few NFL RB's are awesome in pass-protection. Tell me, what part of "most" do you not understand?

    Try again. Honestly this time.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2007
  12. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Rookie

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    Another point is that injuries on the defensive side of the ball have hurt more than on the offensive side of the ball in recent years (DB especially and Seau last year). with the defense on the field for less time, it stands to reason that there is less chance of injury....
  13. MrBigglesWorth

    MrBigglesWorth Rookie

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    I think those two challenges had nothing to do with emotion. I'm not sure about that foot on the line call but he looked in.

    About emotion.... if you look at the Jets game and this game.... the Pats felt their opponent out and then pulled away from them as the game wore on. the charger game they just demoralized that team from the start.

    I will say... the Pats are good where they can overcome crucial mistakes like fumbling on the 1. going for it on 4th down and turning it over on downs in the 2nd quarter. Not many teams can do that. the pats have even turned it over on downs in the red zone where they could have run up the score. personally i this ghost could use the work.

    I was shocked the bills left moss on an island in one on one coverage. that was ludicrous.
  14. Bobs My Uncle

    Bobs My Uncle PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here is what I think after week 3 of the season.

    This Patriot team is the best team in the NFL bar none and will only get better as the new guys (Moss, Welker, Stallworth, Washington, Thomas, Morris, etc) get more accustomed to things and once Seymour and Harrison return to the field.

    Barring injury I think this team will dominate by years end.
  15. 5 Rings for Brady!!

    5 Rings for Brady!! Rookie

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    First of all, we would have to play a game with just 5 blocking to even really assess just the OL. That hasn't happened in like three years.

    I like that you changed from saying 'THE BEST' to 'AMOUNG THE BEST' because you are now headed in the right direction. They may turn out to be a top OL, even without all the extra help, in run blocking as well as pass protection. But as of this week they are not 'THE BEST'.

    They are much improved after three games this season.
  16. 5 Rings for Brady!!

    5 Rings for Brady!! Rookie

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    Do you have his stats for his career? How many games has he missed? Yards per carry? Negative plays, ect. He is just getting started in what will hopefully be a long career.

    Unlike people that want to judge everything on the shortest possible time frame, I judge players over the course of time. I haven't seen Maroney do enough in three games to say his learning process is concluded and he is a pro bowler.

    If you want to base his stats on garbage time in the Chargers game and a good week this week, go ahead.

    I will judge how far he comes at the end of the season, based on if he stays healthy, based on how he runs in the first quarter of games, based on pass protection, ect.

    I will let you throw around the stats through three games this year, if that HONESTLY makes you happy. I am going to let him develop as a player before I decide how he compares to many other good running backs around the league.

    This league is absolutely loaded with good running backs.
  17. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No. I changed the terminology because 'talking about them as the best' implies they are among the best.
    Please let me know where the team is that only has 5 guys blocking. Our OL does the same job that everyone elses does.

    I asked a very simple pointed question. If they are not in the discussion for the best, then what OLs are better.
    Using comments like 'may turn out to be' is wrong. We are asking ARE THEY. That means you compare them to everyone else. Otherwise you cannot rate anyone because of what they 'may turn out to be'.

    Its very simple.
    I asked is it time to start considering whether this is the best OL in the NFL.
    You said NO

    If you cannot consider that point, then there must be OLs you feel are CLEARLY better. Who are they?
    By the way, every team in the NFL also uses TEs to block, so dont hide behind that one.
  18. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    The quoted here, ladies and gentlemen, is the HEIGHT of a dishonest post. NO ONE is arguing that he's "a pro bowler." So please cut it with that. You're embarrassing yourself. Secondly, your contention that you "will judge how far he comes at the end of the season" is pure, unadulterated HORSECRAP. You - quite clearly - will judge him on the same three games we're judging him on, you'll just judge that he has "a long way to go."

    Finally, this entire argument takes place in the context of the three games - WE are the ones acknowledging that. YOU, on the other hand, in a humiliating and ridiculous backpedal, are trying to turn this into our side pushing LoMar for Canton or something, as though we're saying "he's AWESOME NOW! He's a lock for the Pro Bowl."

    That's a disgusting and pointless thing to try and turn a losing argument into. A total lack of intellectual honesty. Just stop.
  19. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The team scored 38 points in 3 quarters, they were basically asleep during the first frame.

    My observations (random)
    • Mankins - he was a monster out there, pulling, trapping, nut kickin. I never put much stock into the play of an OG but if the Patriots had two guards of Mankins ability teams would be afraid to play us (hyperbole, but I love this kid)
    • Moss - The difference between winning 23- 17 or 24-20, both his catches came against very good coverage. His hands are un-real. His play validates the presence of a true outside threat.
    • Maroney - happy to see him throw a block in pass protection, it wasn't a great block but it was better than the 'Ole' he tried last week. I think he is a good back but not great. Addai, Lynch, Peterson all look more complete. I expect 1000 - 1200 yards for the next 4 years, nothing to sneeze at.
    • Stallworth - Jury is still out, I could see a scenario where a healthy Jackson replaces him around week 10.
    • ILB - Seau is getting more reps than Bruschi, when the games turn into blowouts I would try to find ways to rest them if possible.
    • Wilfork - The elbow seemed blatant to me, about the same as Kimo Von Whatever.
    • Punter - didn't seem so great, BB endorsed him but they looked like shanks to me
    • OL, Brady, Welker, Morris, Moss = Great
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2007
  20. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    Not trying to be negative, here, and I like Maroney quite a bit. When they're not in hurry-up (which usually features Faulk) they'll substitute Faulk on 3rd down. There's a reason for that, Faulk is one of the best in the league at pass-protect and screens.

    I haven't watched the tape so I can't be positive, but I thought I saw a play where Maroney got blown up by a rusher on the inside in pass protect. This is important, as sacks are single-digit statistics, so single mistakes count. It wasn't a sack, Brady got to his outlet, but it could have been, Maroney barely slowed the guy down, IIRC.

    On a screen pass, I can't be sure, but I thought it was a catchable ball and either Maroney was in the wrong place or didn't properly adjust.

    My guess is Faulk or Dillon or Morris and possibly Evans would have outperformed Maroney in both those cases, though none of them have Maroney's tremendous potential as a pure RB.

    You've got to admit though, Morris is the only guy we can really compare to Maroney, since they run behind the same OL, with the same passing threat, and the comparison at this point is statistically equal. I hope we're not saying that Morris is an elite back.

    Again, this is not to criticize Maroney, but he is still a young RB with some ways to go before he is elite and before he is complete.

    That said, my concern earlier this year was the lack of backup behind Maroney. The good news is how pleasant a surprise Morris has been. I'm sure we can agree on that. :)

    Edit to say -- on your point that most RBs are not awesome in pass-protect. Faulk is and so was Dillon. The early word from Miami was that Morris is pretty good, too. So Maroney is the weak link, here.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2007

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