The 2013 Prospect Thread

[mackenzie45220]

Heh!! With a name like MacKenzie Pantoja, I was assuming you were at least partly Scottish!!

...What's "Pantoja",though...??...Lusitanian??

Just had to give you a quick shout out: Anybody capable of your Post, above, is displaying a passion for Objectivity that I have no choice but to admire. :rocker:

Thrilled that you've joined our ranks, Brother MacKenzie, as I'm a Fan of your Work.

I'll be joining in in January, and I look forward to some spirited discussions.

With regard to my last name, let's just say I'm representing Puerto Rican american football fans

 

[jr_3421]

What about LB Khaseem Greene (Rutgers) as a 3rd round pick? He's undersized but a great in coverage where all of our LBs struggle. He could be an answer to covering athletic TEs.

 

[Avenger]

Zach Boren still adjusting for Ohio State Buckeyes - ESPN

Vrabel on Zach Boren

 

[mackenzie45220]

What about LB Khaseem Greene (Rutgers) as a 3rd round pick? He's undersized but a great in coverage where all of our LBs struggle. He could be an answer to covering athletic TEs.

That whole undersized thing means he has no chance covering tight ends. Many tight ends have 6 inches in height and 3 inches in arm length on him. His only chance is on the weakside

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Zach Boren still adjusting for Ohio State Buckeyes - ESPN

Vrabel on Zach Boren

He's so going to be a Patriot.

Good thing I like him.

 

[DaBruinz]

The LB personnel doesn't suit the 3-4 anymore, who would you leave out of the lineup: Hightower, Mayo or Spikes?

4-3 is the better of the 2 schemes (IMO) and the Patriots use the 4 man line in nickel situations too, so the 3-4 is pretty much pointless for this team.

Gotta disagree with this on several levels.

First, the Pats may use a 4 man line in "nickel" situations but it's been Vince with Cunningham, Jones and Ninkovich. Not exactly your typical line-up.

Secondly, you opinion doesn't mean anything to Belichick. His opinion has always been that the 3-4 is the better scheme. He moved the team to the 4-3 because of a lack of true 3-4 DEs. Right now, they only have ONE in Deaderick and even he is lacking in the height that BB likes for the DEs (6'4-6'6). The Pats would need a TRUE LDE and RDE for the 3-4 before they could switch back. And I don't see that happening in one draft unless the Pats really luck out.

Third, many people could see Hightower as a pass-rushing OLB. I personally don't because I think he's too short, but it's what Belichick thinks that matters. I see him in a rotation with Mayo and Spikes in the 3-4 at ILB. It gives the Pats great depth there, particularly in the even of an injury.


Lastly, the Pats have been using a combination of 3-4 and 4-3 much of the season. In fact, there were just as many plays run out of the 3-4 base as the 4-3 base against the Jets.

 

[DaBruinz]

LOL at anointing oneself a "scout," and at 13 no less. Just...LOL.

Reminder: a DVR and message board presence does not make you a scout; a paycheck signed by one of 32 NFL owners does. How often do you receive one of those, mackenzie45220?

I suggest you look up the name Joel Buschbaum and then give an apology to Mackenzie45220.

Better yet, let me help you out. Joel Buschbaum was one of the most well respected Scouting analysts and it was through his tireless work reviewing thousands of hours of film on college players each year and published the first Scouting Magazines for the Fans. It was because of his work that the NFL Combine and NFL Draft because the big "To Do's" that they have. In fact, it's because of Buschbaum that we have the scouting magazines that we do, the scouting sites that we do, and the information available that we do.

And Buschbaum was never once paid by an NFL team. In fact, both Ernie Accorsi of the Giants and Bill Belichick (with the Browns and again with the Pats) tried to hire Buschbaum. Buschbaum refused? Why? Because Buschbaum wanted all the fans to have access to his information.

So, this idea that only someone PAID by an NFL team can be a scout is absolute BS on your part.

 

[DaBruinz]

Yeah, I'm smart because I wrote a negative review about a guy who had his 3rd major knee injury. Gee. I'm really smart. Because, I used torque in my scouting report. Therefore, none of my conclusions can be disputed. Because the guy will never be healthy enough to step on the field. I read the same crap about Sean Lee, Posluszny and Connor. One is an all pro, one is a good NFL player and the other is a borderline starter/backup in the NFL. For some reason, younger draftniks hate white prospects. They want to draft a beast!!

Posluszny is good when healthy.. But he's had all of 2 full seasons in his 6 year career. Connor was a high draft pick who also couldn't stay healthy..

Lee is in his 3rd season and, well, he's missed games each of the 1st two years and will miss 10 games this year when all is said and done.

Me thinks you are over-reacting much..

 

[Get it shawtaay]

Gotta disagree with this on several levels.

First, the Pats may use a 4 man line in "nickel" situations but it's been Vince with Cunningham, Jones and Ninkovich. Not exactly your typical line-up.

Secondly, you opinion doesn't mean anything to Belichick. His opinion has always been that the 3-4 is the better scheme. He moved the team to the 4-3 because of a lack of true 3-4 DEs. Right now, they only have ONE in Deaderick and even he is lacking in the height that BB likes for the DEs (6'4-6'6). The Pats would need a TRUE LDE and RDE for the 3-4 before they could switch back. And I don't see that happening in one draft unless the Pats really luck out.

Third, many people could see Hightower as a pass-ris pushing OLB. I personally don't because I think he's too short, but it's what Belichick thinks that matters. I see him in a rotation with Mayo and Spikes in the 3-4 at ILB. It gives the Pats great depth there, particularly in the even of an injury.


Lastly, the Pats have been using a combination of 3-4 and 4-3 much of the season. In fact, there were just as many plays run out of the 3-4 base as the 4-3 base against the Jets.

If there's one thing that Belichick's 20+ year career of decoration has illustrated, its that he does not deal in such dogmatic absolutes.

And calling the 3-4 the "better" defense is silly anyway because 60% of the game is played in nickel packages with 4 man fronts. Investing in traditional 3-4 ends who cannot play DT or DE in a 4 man front is paying full time wages to a part time employee.

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

I thought about saying this when I first heard he was playing defense. He's only a blocking fullback though isn't he? I was watching FSU yesterday. I want Lonnie Pryor for a FB role. Really intelligent blocker but moves like a HB.

Sure but I don't want a top 100 FB. You'd have to take Pryor in the third with our current picks,, but Boren you could probably get with a 7th.

Dan Pompei looks at top 8 OG prospects. J Cooper is #1 (starting to lose hope on this one).

Scout Talk: Top Guard Prospects | National Football Post

You probably shouldn't. He's a guard and guards just don't go that high. Is he a better prospect than Iupati? I would say absolutely not and neither is Warmack. Iupati went 17th.

 

[DaBruinz]

If there's one thing that Belichick's 20+ year career of decoration has illustrated, its that he does not deal in such dogmatic absolutes.

And calling the 3-4 the "better" defense is silly anyway because 60% of the game is played in nickel packages with 4 man fronts. Investing in traditional 3-4 ends who cannot play DT or DE in a 4 man front is paying full time wages to a part time employee.

You clearly didn't watch the Jets game because 60% of that game wasn't played in Nickel packages with 4 man fronts.

Also, most "traditional" 3-4 DEs CAN and do play DT in a 4 man front.

 

[DaBruinz]

Other than Brian Waters (who I don't know what position he played in college), Belichick has used former OTs (generally LTs) to fill his guard positions. I'm not sure I can see him changing his modus operandi on that.

Also, I think that OT might be a bigger issue. I love Vollmer but his back issues are a major concern. He is the Pats current swing tackle and him being out really puts a strain on the O-line. Now, granted they have Zusevics, but it remains to be seen where he rates.

I'd love for the Pats to add an OT who can play OG that would allow Connolly to move back to center.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Posluszny is good when healthy.. But he's had all of 2 full seasons in his 6 year career. Connor was a high draft pick who also couldn't stay healthy..

Lee is in his 3rd season and, well, he's missed games each of the 1st two years and will miss 10 games this year when all is said and done.

Me thinks you are over-reacting much..

Poz has missed 6 games in the last 5 years. 16, 12, 14, 16, 10/10 this year. 58/64 is pretty durable to me. Not sure what you're measuring stick is. Mayo has missed 5 as a comparision.

Paul Posluszny Stats - Jacksonville Jaguars - ESPN

Sean Lee got hurt so he's not any good? You mean once a player misses a big part of a season they aren't good any more or what? He missed 3 games in his first two years. He had a better year last season than any Patriot lb has had in a while.

 

[Avenger]

Boren had a fumble recovery today

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Well I've downloaded a bunch of Baylor games so I'll be able to provide more insight on his body catching. I like to see receivers catch with their hands, it doesn't leave any question marks as to how good their hands are. On whether he's a first rounder, two datapoints:

1. Smart Football, a website I like say's that Williams is the best WR in CFB, better than Marquise Lee (who drops quite a lot).

https://twitter.com/smartfootball/status/270678163967864832

2. The last receiver to catch for 150 ypg+ was Michael Crabtree and he was a first rounder so I don't see why not.

I think he can be, especially with the week class at the top. I absolutely see him as a great fit, particularly if we slide Brandon Lloyd to the Deion Branch role (Lloyd will only have two more years on a relatively cheap contract and Williams looks to be a much better playmaker than Lloyd). The other thing I like about Williams is that the last two receivers out of Baylor are producing in their first year so the transition from Baylor to the NFL might not be so great.

Ok, well I look forward to your further insight. I'm still not sold on a receiver in the first though.

Have to say, I don't see the thug aspect of him. He runs really good routes, is a very good catcher and has quick twitch change of direction. My two concerns are that a) he doesn't have the height to warrant the high pick it will take, and B) he'll probably go back anyway to be part of a Tajh Boyd/Watkins/Hopkins offense at Clemson.

I haven't heard him speak, but his profile picture ook like a rapper's mugshot DeAndre Hopkins - Football Player Profile - TigerNet.com

His teammate Brandin Cooks has a 4.31 40 time according to commentary (although 4:42 on Nfldraftscout). Wheaton had the same time in an athletics meet. He also beat Deanthony Thomas in a 100m race who's lowest 40 time on nfldraftsdcout is 4:25:

Markus Wheaton beats De'Anthony Thomas 100M Dash - YouTube

So I'd say he's in the high 4.3's, low 4.4's at worst.

As to his QB, which one have you seen: Cody Vaz or Sean Mannion? Mannion is much the better.

I love Wheaton because he gets all the fundamentals right: great routes, great hands plus I love his intangibles. The only thing I will say is that I'm pretty sure he's not 6'1" as is being recorded. Looks more 5'11 or so too me.

Yeah it was Vaz.

I think Wheaton is 6 foot, and I've seen his track speed, but I'm not sold on his football speed. It's there, but it's no where near DAT's. I think Wheaton probably has Thomas beat in top speed, but will be worse in 10 yard split, 3-cone, and shuttle. I've seen people compare his to Mike Wallace. I think that's too aggressive, and I like Wheaton. I don't love him though.

Really cautious about those Tenessee guys. I've not seen Rogers play (the Julio Jones thing was me repeating what someone else had said) and whilst I can see the upside to Patterson, I don't see him as a day one starting WR but more of a 'gimmick' type player. It's the same with Tavon Austin - I can see the benefit to either but I'm personally looking for starting WR's. That's just a personal preference although I wouldn't object to either Patterson or Austin.

Yeah I can see that. I have to most interest in Rogers, and I like him the most, but Patterson is kind of intriguing too. As I see it now, neither of them are an option before our second pick. I don't like Hunter, but the games I've seen of his have been his worst statistically.

Woods would be an excellent possession receiver and might be a worthy Welker replacement. Lee is outstanding except for the fact that his hands are dodgy (drops and fumbles).

I wouldn't even go so far as to call him a possession receiver. I see him a Reggie Wayne type. 6 foot, 4.45 speed, and very well rounded as a receiver. When I say he's not as much of a high upside player, I mean he isn't as big and fast as some of the other options. USC is obviously an NFL style offense, and Woods has a great understanding of it. If you watch USC you'll see Woods correcting Lee, and telling him what to do all the time. I think Lee has ADD.

For me, Williams would be the most likely to have a #1 type impact for us but Wheaton is my binky just like Marvin Jones last year.

Yeah, and right now that are a lot of players in between too. This could be the year to snag a receiver. There a lot of good options and it looks like you'll be able to pick the type of one you want.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

You clearly didn't watch the Jets game because 60% of that game wasn't played in Nickel packages with 4 man fronts.

Also, most "traditional" 3-4 DEs CAN and do play DT in a 4 man front.

That was the Jets.

Against the Ravens and Broncos (ie. teams that are relevant to a squad with championship aspirations) the Patriots have spent 69% of their snaps in sub defense per Reiss.

As for whether a 3-4 DE can or cannot play inside... guys like Seymour, Ngata, Wilfork, etc. who can dominate at 5-tech or 3-tech or 1-tech are rare specimens. Most good 5-techniques aren't quick enough to be 3-tech rushers but aren't strong enough to be 1-tech run stuffers. Why pay them for their ability to play in the 3-4 when they won't be doing that half the time?

 

[Merril Hoge's Tie Knot]

Other than Brian Waters (who I don't know what position he played in college), Belichick has used former OTs (generally LTs) to fill his guard positions. I'm not sure I can see him changing his modus operandi on that.

Also, I think that OT might be a bigger issue. I love Vollmer but his back issues are a major concern. He is the Pats current swing tackle and him being out really puts a strain on the O-line. Now, granted they have Zusevics, but it remains to be seen where he rates.

I'd love for the Pats to add an OT who can play OG that would allow Connolly to move back to center.

You might like Dallas Thomas then. He plays LG and LT for Tennessee. If I remember correctly he's been a tackle since he got there but has been playing both positions this year. I don't know why they use him at both positions, but he seems to play guard more this season.

Boren had a fumble recovery today

He looks like he's been a LB his whole career lately.

 

[Avenger]

Boren with a sack too

 

[manxman2601]

Watch this play by Alec Ogletree and tell me we don't need this type of speed on our defense - something our D sorely lacks (McCalebb, they guy he chases down is a 4.3 RB potentially):

Alec Ogletree vs Auburn (2012) - YouTube


The question is, how do we get him on the field with Hightower, Spikes and Mayo? Play him as a spur/Chung replacement perhaps? Have him and Hightower alternate between running and passing downs?

 

[manxman2601]

This tweet sums up my feelings on Terrance Williams:

Yep. RT @DarrenPage15: If Terrance Williams was more of a natural hands-catcher he'd be the #1 WR on my board comfortably. #Baylor

https://twitter.com/ECStoner/status/272439867877752833

The fact that he isn't does hopefully drop him in to our range.

Positives:

1. His size is really impressive. Not just his height, but his bulk. Boxes out defenders.

2. Speed is not elite but plenty fast enough. Has good short range speed for a tall guy.

3. Outstanding blocker. One of the strongest WR's I've seen.

4. Doesn't usually hand catch but can do. Rarely drops passes.

5. We don't have any receivers that can run under Brady's overthrown bombs. I believe Williams would be the guy to do so. Adds a whole new wrinkle to the offense.

6. Is comfortable running option routes.


Negatives

1. His lack of hand catching.

2. Question marks about effort. When Baylor run plays not close to Williams, he tends to stroll about rather than blocking or running a pattern flat out. Doesn't "finish" as it were when not involved. Is this coaching or laziness?


I'd take him in the first without hesitation because he can help in both the long ans short/intermediate passing games.