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Refs blow call by overturning White's reception.


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Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3:

A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is
complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:
(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
(c) maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled

And the rules don't deal with this scenario explicitly, because they don't define what a foot is. That's the problem, and why they needed to go to the casebook.

If you are going to refer to the PFT article, they refer you to Approved Ruling 15.79 of the 2011 Casebook. However, there is no A.R. 15.79 in the 2011 Casebook. Here is the 2011 Rule Book with all the Approved Rulings in it..

http://www.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2011_Rule_Book.pdf

It's not in the rulebook because it's in the casebook, which is not publicly available. That's why they have to explain it to the coaches/fans/players every few years to remind us (though Al/Chris last night had it exactly right last night).

Do you think they just made that up, some weird arcane rule, on the spot? They remembered it because it comes up every year or so. The internet is littered with people who were confused about this, and relearn it while watching games. My three links above illustrate, and you can find more if you do some research....



I'm not defending the rule, just clarifying it: If his heel came down OOB, then it was the right call to say it was incomplete. This is known by all the mavens. Yes, it doesn't match many people's intuitions, but so much the worse for your intuition wrt completion rules. :cool:

That Rice catch it is not that clear if his heel came down or not from that video: if it did, then they got the call wrong in the game.
 
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Here's the Approved Ruling I've seen quoted:



That directly related to what happened in the White case and if his heel did hit OOB (I agree the replay is inconclusive) it was not a catch.
Where did you find this?My understanding was the casebook was not publicly available. Do you have a source? o_O
 
And the rules don't deal with this scenario explicitly, because they don't define what a foot is. That's the problem, and why they needed to go to the casebook.

It's not in the rulebook because it's in the casebook, which is not publicly available. That's why they have to explain it to the coaches/fans/players every few years to remind us (though Al/Chris last night had it exactly right last night).

Do yourself a favor and actually LOOK at the link. The Casebook is included. That is what all the "A.R"s are in the link I provided.

Do you think they just made that up, some weird arcane rule, on the spot? They remembered it because it comes up every year or so. The internet is littered with people who were confused about this, and relearn it while watching games. My three links above illustrate, and you can find more if you do some research....



I'm not defending the rule, just clarifying it: If his heel came down OOB, then it was the right call to say it was incomplete. This is known by all the mavens. Yes, it doesn't match many people's intuitions, but so much the worse for your intuition wrt completion rules. :cool:

That Rice catch it is not that clear if his heel came down or not from that video: if it did, then they got the call wrong in the game.


Had you actually watched the WHOLE video, the it's PLAINLY clear that his heel comes down out of bounds. And it was the CORRECT call, despite your claims to the contrary. Watch from 27 seconds to the end of the video. Plain as day that his right heel comes down out of bounds.

Sorry, but you are regurgitating fallacies, not clarifying anything. As I pointed out, the Reddit article actually supports the catch if you read far enough down.

You're problem, Neuronet, is that you can't be bothered to actually read entire articles or watch entire videos. Instead, you read only what you want and stop watching when you've made your decision.
 
Where did you find this?My understanding was the casebook was not publicly available. Do you have a source? o_O
I got the quote from someone who has access to stuff the NFL gives out to the media. That's also how I used to get full copies of the real, full, official rulebook before the NFL finally starting posting the PDF of the real rulebook on its website.

If you google you can easily find the 2012 Casebook online, however it doesn't have that ruling (doesn't have anything 15.xxx, actually). I haven't had any luck finding a casebook later than 2012 via google.
 
Nice gifs.

Yeah I thought that was the play but I remember the Patriots recovering the ball as some other user mentioned in the game thread, I thought I was mistaken but the see above another user stated the Pats recovered the ball.

It was a play very similar to that one you posted, but I don't think the receiver made this spin, he was with his back to the end zone the whole time. So maybe it's a different play indeed. I exaggerated a little bit earlier when I said he made 2 football moves, but it was a clear catch, the ball never wobbled.

i went through all of the incomplete passes thrown by the texans (you can a list of every play here: Watch New England Patriots vs. Houston Texans [12/13/2015] - NFL.com). none of the other ones really fits your description.

here's the griffin catch that everyone else is referring to:

 
Biggest crock of dogshit I've ever seen.

If that isnt a catch, they better give the ****ing cardinals a trophy because holmes didn't catch ****.
 
i went through all of the incomplete passes thrown by the texans (you can a list of every play here: Watch New England Patriots vs. Houston Texans [12/13/2015] - NFL.com). none of the other ones really fits your description.

here's the griffin catch that everyone else is referring to:


That play is strikingly similar to the deep ball to Amendola last week that was ruled incomplete, but a bunch of Eagles fans were going nuts claiming it was a fumble. In both cases, the receiver takes multiple steps, but at no point had he firmly established control of the ball. Correctly called a drop in both cases, IMO. I'm fine with that call, doubly so since we benefited from the same exact call just a week ago.
 
Here's the Approved Ruling I've seen quoted:


That directly related to what happened in the White case and if his heel did hit OOB (I agree the replay is inconclusive) it was not a catch.

Sorry, but this is the first time I've seen that quoted. And it doesn't come from the 2011 Casebook.

Do you have an actual link?
 
I got the quote from someone who has access to stuff the NFL gives out to the media. That's also how I used to get full copies of the real, full, official rulebook before the NFL finally starting posting the PDF of the real rulebook on its website.

If you google you can easily find the 2012 Casebook online, however it doesn't have that ruling (doesn't have anything 15.xxx, actually). I haven't had any luck finding a casebook later than 2012 via google.


Here is the link to the 2012 Casebook.
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/26_2012_Official_CaseBook.pdf

the link I provided for the 2011 Rulebook had the Casebook included (even says so on the page when you open it).
http://www.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/2011_Rule_Book.pdf


One of the problems I have with this supposed A.R. 15.100 ruling is that Rule 15 deals specifically with the officials and who is responsible for what. It doesn't deal with ball possession. That is rule 3 or rule 8..

What is also interesting is that the 2011 and 2012 Casebooks have no Approved rulings for Rule 15..
 
Remember when a catch was just a catch and not all this BS the league has turned it into
 
Had you actually watched the WHOLE video, the it's PLAINLY clear that his heel comes down out of bounds. And it was the CORRECT call, despite your claims to the contrary. Watch from 27 seconds to the end of the video. Plain as day that his right heel comes down out of bounds.

I watched the whole video: it isn't clear because it seems that his heel hit after his feet had already left the field.

The convention clearly followed when this comes up explicitly for discussion is toe in-->heel out is incomplete. This is what Al/Chris said last night before the ruling came in, this is what comes up all over the internet for years, with articles explicitly addressing it. That was the whole point of the reddit thread that you somehow misinterpreted (a pattern with you, as you pulled this crap with the team timeout rule two weeks ago).

From the article:
The NFL has confirmed via email that the official rule book merely says that a player must get two feet in bounds, with no elaboration or explanation regarding the ability of a player to make a catch while only ever getting a toe or the top of the foot down. But the league interprets the rule to mean that a toe is a foot, as long as the toe is dragged. If in the act of dragging the toe the foot comes down and any portion of it is out of bounds, a catch was not made.

For what you are advocating to be true, you basically would have to be endorsing some kind of conspiracy to actively mislead the public about the rule, for multiple years. Pretty unlikely. The NFL, when explicitly asked about it via email said that toe-in/heel-out is incomplete. It was unambiguous.

In terms of tracking down “Approved Ruling 15.79” , maybe someone got the detail of the particular ruling number, and maybe even its source, wrong, but that is to entirely miss the larger point. The actual ruling (regardless of its source) has actually been consistently applied and rendered when the NFL is giving its considered opinion, like when it is explicitly asked about it outside of the exigencies of game conditions by reporter. Or when coach Schiano asks them about it for clarification and he explains that clarification in a press conference. Or when refs discuss it in an online forum 3 years ago. It is crystal clear, all the rest is pedantry.

As I pointed out, the Reddit article actually supports the catch if you read far enough down.
Actually, as the original poster there explicitly says, the AR he posted doesn't actually bear on this. They cite an AR that has to do with toe dragging, not toe in then heel out rulings. Here's yet another reddit thread discusses the toe-then-heel as common knowledge (from 2 years ago).
Why does a toe in bounds count but not a heel first? • /r/nfl
Even to the point of making fun of people who don't know this. I wouldn't go that far, but the point is there.

I'm not sure if you care at this point what is true, versus just trying to imitate a lawyer and score petty points, but I am most interested in the truth about the call. While tracking down the written source turns out to be a nontrivial exercise in stamp collecting, great for someone with a future in HR, your case is weak because all the official channels say the same thing: toe-in heel-out is incomplete.
 
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i went through all of the incomplete passes thrown by the texans (you can a list of every play here: Watch New England Patriots vs. Houston Texans [12/13/2015] - NFL.com). none of the other ones really fits your description.

here's the griffin catch that everyone else is referring to:


That is a great gif: is there any chance you can get the clip from the controversial toe-in/heel-out call we are arguing about in this thread? E.g., there must be 1-3 angles that would help us evaluate whether his heel indeed touched down after his toe, thereby rending it an incompletion.
 
Yeah I didn't get why that was overturned either. I've seen many times a receiver catch a ball with both toes in bounds then when he falls over the heels are out of bounds and its considered a catch. How was this any different?

Because it was the Patriots with a huge play in an important game on national TV
 
Anyone who has been watching the NFL the last 5 years should know the 'heel is out' ruling. My only problem with the call was the video angles didn't conclusively show his heel was down. Unless they had different angles (which I don't think they do) the call should have stood on inconclusive evidence. It really irks me when the refs overturn calls on inconclusive evidence.
 
That is a great gif: is there any chance you can get the clip from the controversial toe-in/heel-out call we are arguing about in this thread? E.g., there must be 1-3 angles that would help us evaluate whether his heel indeed touched down after his toe, thereby rending it an incompletion.

I'm blanking at the moment. Does the "must maintain control going to the ground" thing apply regardless of contact from a defender? If it does, then that is clearly an incomplete pass since he grabbed the ball while off balance, stumbled, fell, and lost the ball as he hit the ground.
 
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BB took a king-size dump on the El Cheapo NFL and VP of Empty Suits Blandino and criticized their level of inaction in his presser today.

This afternoon on his conference call, Bill Belichick was frustrated that there wasn't a better camera angle of the crucial play.

"It goes back to the whole issue of the angle of the camera, and was his heel actually on the white (sideline) or was his toe on the ground and his heel above the white?" Belichick said. "I think I would just say what I've said many times before, that I think because of the plays on the sideline, on the goal line and on the end line, that the league ought to have cameras there."

The coach's proposals for additional cameras have been deemed too expensive by the NFL in the past. Belichick isn't buying it. In 2014, the league made a profit of $7.24 billion.

"I don't think we should be worrying about how much it costs," Belichick said. "If we need to raise money, we should raise money, and get those set so that on those kind of plays we have an absolute, down the line angle of the play and not, I would say the angles I saw showing up on the screen. Which, none of them had that."'

As for the play itself, Belichick thinks the ruling was a crapshoot because the replays weren't good enough.

"If 100 people saw that play, it might be 55/45," the coach said.


Bill Belichick: Time for the NFL to pay up for better camera angles
 
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Anyone who has been watching the NFL the last 5 years should know the 'heel is out' ruling. My only problem with the call was the video angles didn't conclusively show his heel was down. Unless they had different angles (which I don't think they do) the call should have stood on inconclusive evidence. It really irks me when the refs overturn calls on inconclusive evidence.

Dunno what's transpired since, but years ago the rule was that there had to be incontrovertible visual evidence in the replay to overturn a call on the field. That heel catch or whatever had no such evidence meeting that requirement.

Nice play & props to White.
 
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