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Questioning some assumptions

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by betterthanthealternative, Dec 7, 2009.

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  1. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative Rookie

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    1. The defense is young. Four of the first five defensive linemen are seasoned vets. Two of the first four linebackers are seasoned vets. Five of the first seven DB's are seasoned vets. Of the 18 players getting significant playing time, three are rookies and three are second year players . Is this "young?"

    2. Moss is an elite receiver. A quick scan of other team rosters puts a dent in that assumption, if actual performance is used as the measure. Two years ago, TV announcers were calling him the best in the league.

    3. Brady is one of the two best QB's in the league. Again, not by performance. And if his reputation for winning in the clutch was to be formed this year, he'd be seen as someone who fades when the game is on the line.

    4. BB is an elite head coach. Could it be that time has passed him by, if younger, more aggressive and innovative coaches has caught him, with some now consistently doing a superior job?

    5. The Pats manage personnel (draft, FA, trades, veteran negotiations, and cap space) better than most teams.

    Is this what it looks like at the "end of a run?"
  2. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    Good posting... but buckle your chin strap. ;)
  3. NYCPatsFan

    NYCPatsFan Rookie

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    I disagree on on a few but think I have a new one that can be discussed:

    (6) BB/Pats are among the best in making half-time adjustments. This used to be the case up and until 2004 but not so especially during the last three seasons.
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  4. Sean Pa Patriot

    Sean Pa Patriot Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    I think in 07 the offense helped the defense by getting up early, and playing with a lead.. This year the offense has to be forced to make plays and if they dont the defense cant make any either ...
  5. parthasas

    parthasas Patriots Nation PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is one of the things I had tough time figuring out. For better or worse, all our opponents are able to do this and run the table in the second half. Assuming BB gives complete control for the OC & DC to do their jobs, all the success we had in the past was due to Romeo & Charlie ??
  6. The Dynasty

    The Dynasty Rookie

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    1. Of course our defense is young and inexperienced. I think your calculations of young players is off. Brace. Pryor, Guyton, Mayo, Butler, Wheatley, Wilhite, and Chung are either rookies or in their second year. Others such as
    McGowan havent played that much in their career like they are this year. Yes, I would classify our defense as young.

    2. I think Moss is aging and is not the best in the league anymore, but he is still easily in the top 10 and can make big plays down the field that no one else on this team can.

    3. Brady is still in the top 5 QB's in the league. Brees, Manning and Favre (with the exception of last night) are having unbelievable seasons. I'd still want Tom Brady as the QB of my team any day of the week.

    4. BB is the best coach in the NFL, I dare anyone to name someone who has done more of a consistent job than BB. And saying that he isnt aggressive is a bit off...look at all the criticism he has got for going for it on these 4th downs. He definitely is agressive.

    5. Has this year been an off year in terms of play from our FA's, yes it has. It hasnt been like its been a consistent thing. Drafting wise look at our team Meriweather, Chung, Butler, Mayo, Guyton, Vollmer, and Edleman have all been drafted by the Pats and have been impact players for this team in their first 2 years. Our ability to find that star caliber player in the late rounds in the draft still cannot be said with many other teams in the NFL.
  7. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Halftime adjustments is the most overrated thing ever since they don't really exist. You talk to any player and there are very few halftime adjustments. Adjustments are made in every series. Christian Fauria addressed this on WEEI last weekend and said there is no time for halftime adjustments.

    Also, the Pats have made great some adjustments over the years since 2004. People want to attribute lack of Super Bowls to lack of adjustments and poor coaching. It just isn't the case. You can make the case for this year that the adjustments haven't been great, but not in previous years. I don't think there is any statistical evidence that shows that other than this year that the Pats offense or defense deteriorated over the course of the game on a regular basis.
  8. Bella*chick

    Bella*chick Addicted to the light

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    Name me one head coach who is CONSISTENTLY doing a better job than BB. Most head coaches haven't even been doing their jobs long enough.
  9. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Over the past 10 years? 0.

    This year:

    - Sean Payton
    - Josh McDaniels
    - Jim Caldwell
  10. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1.) Just because the Pats have 4-5 seasoned veterans starting on defense doesn't mean they aren't young. They have at least as many players starting with three or less years of experience.

    2.) Moss is an elite WR who is going through a bad stretch. Contrary to popular belief, elite WRs don't put up 100 yards a game ever game. Even elite WRs can be inconsistent. The guy still leads the league in receing yards and tied for third in TDs.

    3.) Right now, Brady isn't playing like one of the two best QBs in the league. But that doesn't mean he isn't. The guy is in his first year back from a major injury and was expected to struggle this year. He has been hampered at times from some bad playcalling too.

    4.) This is ridiculous. The season isn't even over yet and the guy had a great year of coaching last year when Brady went down. One bad year does not mean the guy has fallen from grace and he still has time to redeem himself.

    5.) The Pats do make a roster better than most teams. The Pats are in playoff contention every year of the Brady era. There have been plenty of flash in the pan teams during that time and even more teams that never sniffed the playoffs during that time. Belichick has not been as successful at it as he was earlier in the decade, but the ever increasing cap and many teams copying the Pats make it harder for Belichick to have that type of success.

    I really do love these total overreaction threads after losses.
  11. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, the difference between 2007 and this year is when the Pats got up with a lead in 2007, they kept the lead. This year every loss (except New Orleans) has been when the Pats had at least a two score lead at one point in the game.
  12. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    The defense isn't young, it's just younger than the ones we've had.

    Count me in with the 'who would you rather have' crowd when it comes to BB.

    Brady right now is not a top 2 QB, maybe not even top 3. But come January I'm not sure I could say I'd rather have anyone else.
  13. The Dynasty

    The Dynasty Rookie

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    There is no question that the offensive can help the defense. When you know that your offense is going to put up 28+ points it is a lot easier on your defense. This year our defense doesnt know what our offense is going to do. The offense this year has put a lot of pressure on our defense, and I think for the most part our defense has responded. Going into the year we knew that the offense was going to have to lead this team, and quite honestly it hasnt.
  14. NYCPatsFan

    NYCPatsFan Rookie

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    And one more:

    (--) BB doesn't open his playbook during the regular season and waits until playoffs to reveal his exotic schemes. Even assuming it had an iota of truth, I would say this was probably true in 2001-02 but not in the last few years.
  15. tanked_as_usual

    tanked_as_usual Banned

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    1 - which means 6-7 players are not seasoned vets....THAT IS YOUNG

    2 - 2009 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

    if he's not elite, what does elite mean?

    3 - I will still call him one of the best in the game.....you can call him whatever you want

    4 - 6 new defensive starters. somewhere along the line you have to replace players. the defense has problems but it is still not as bad as the one they had in 2002 that included many of the guys that made the defense in 2003 the best in the NFL. it is not possible to have your team have the best record in the NFL every year

    5 - the jury is still out on this one. the pats have been very successful in terms of fielding good teams during the BB tenure. better than most, if not all, so that would not fly in the face of your assertion.

    better sit down and take some advil
  16. condon84

    condon84 Rookie

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    What goes up, must come down.

    Our run has been great, but sooner or later, it has to end.

    Whether this is the end or not, remains to be seen...
  17. Batman

    Batman Rookie

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    I'm sorry but he is look at all of his stats he in in the top 10 for pretty much everything as a receiver he still gets double teamed I would say he is still elite.
  18. NYCPatsFan

    NYCPatsFan Rookie

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    Rob - you know much more about the game than I possibly could and so I am not going to aruge especially when you refer to Fauria addressing it last weekend.

    Wonder why the phrase is then constantly used by both TV commentators, many of whom are ex-players btw, and coaches in almost every game.
  19. The Dynasty

    The Dynasty Rookie

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    Depends on what you consider elite. He is a top 10 receiver in the league no question, but I dont think hes top 5 anymore.
  20. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative Rookie

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    I'd suggest you have overreacted here. I certainly haven't. I'm just thinking out loud, not drawing any conclusions. That's the definition of "questioning" - opening something up to thought and conversation. I didn't say I believed the points I was making. I just put some thoughts out there that had crossed my mind.

    The overreactions are from people who act as if I've proclaimed these things to be truths.
  21. Batman

    Batman Rookie

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    I also dislike the term half time adjustments as I play the game often have have played international games I find that adjustments are constant by both offence and defence most of the time they are done when you step off the field sometimes even when a timeout is called.
  22. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative Rookie

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    One assumptive difference embedded in these responses is the definition of "young vs. seasoned."

    I'd suggest that, given the average career of a defensive player to be about six years long, that by the third year, a player isn't young anymore unless they have an learning ability deficit. There have been plenty of practices, off seasons, preseason games, and regular season games to be labeled a vet.

    If we define it as fourth or fifth year, we narrow it down fairly far.
  23. Batman

    Batman Rookie

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    So being in the top 5% is not elite?

    I have a feeling that if we look closer at his stats he is still top 5. after all he leads the league in yards, 2nd in TD's, 1st in 20+ yard plays, 2nd in 40+ yards play and 10th in receptions I would say that is top 5.
  24. The Dynasty

    The Dynasty Rookie

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    Fair enough. I looked at the stats and yeah I would agree with the fact that he is probably the 4th or 5th best reciever in the game.
  25. DougFlutie

    DougFlutie Banned

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    The same way Moss is a top 3 receiver, is the same way fans say this current Patriots offense is a top 3 offense, based purely on the stats.
  26. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The phrase is used by them as a way to get the masses fired up about why the tempo of the game can change in the 2nd half.. It's a catch all phrase that they use as an excuse and they almost never truly explain themselves. Why? Most times because they can't figure it out themselves.
  27. The Dynasty

    The Dynasty Rookie

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    I think this is a good point. In the losses Moss hasnt been performing to his potential. With the exception of the Colts games in Patriot losses he has had 1, 2, 4, and 5 catches. He is still a top 5 WR in the NFL, but he needs to start coming up big when we need him most. That is what elite WR's do.
  28. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wow! I can fake people out. Throw a little BS, use Wikipedia, and have a copy of Football for Dummies and people think you are knowledgable about football :D. Thanks.

    Halftime adjustments is just one of those cliches that the media wants to cling to. There are a lot things the media talk about (even by experienced former players) that are overblown. It is a way to make drama for the game.

    If think about it, halftime adjustments couldn't be all that much. You have 15 minutes to get to and from the locker room, warm up again before the second half, seek treatment, etc. When do the coordinators have time to come up with the adjustments and relay them to the team. Fauria said most of the coaching during the half is more to re-enforce issues and adjustments that have already been given to the players.
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