Pats vs. Redskins post-game thread

[TheTruth3402]

I think a dominant situational lead blocking specialist would help the ground game immensely.

It seems like Bill puts so much emphasis on having lots of special teamers on the roster, (Cough.. Sergio Brown..cough), but continues to neglect and undervalue this position.

Can anyone name a team that runs successfully and almost never deploys a fullback? And we haven't had a true FB since Heath Evans.

 

[SVN]

Redskins rush defense is very good so the pats employed wha they usually do with the steelers .Throw and throw all the time. They just didnt execute well enough and made mistakes for it to be close.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Your right, BOB could never get away with calling one dimensional games if he didn't have the blessing of BB. This just makes it harder for me at least to understand what has happened BB is a student of the game, he knows historically speaking that you don't win using this philosophy.

Except how meaningful is it to quote history when between Polian's rules and the can't-touch-QBs-and-receivers rules (both of which happened less than 10 years ago) have changed things? I don't think it's coincidence that a passing record which has stood for 25 years could be broken by 3 QBs in the same year.

Personally, I don't think the "historical" way is terribly valid anymore. I think the way to win is pass first, run enough so that the play-action works, have competent DBs that can cover people long enough for the pass rush to move the QB (since the rules don't let DBs actually play real pass defense anymore), and a have a good pass rush.

 

[Patspsycho]

I think a dominant situational lead blocking specialist would help the ground game immensely.

It seems like Bill puts so much emphasis on having lots of special teamers on the roster, (Cough.. Sergio Brown..cough), but continues to neglect and undervalue this position.

Can anyone name a team that runs successfully and almost never deploys a fullback? And we haven't had a true FB since Heath Evans.

I think that's a great point to make.

 

[Urgent]

I think that's a great point to make.

On the fullback - Belichick evolved to the two-TE from the HB/FB set several years ago. Essentially the second TE, who is often in motion in a blocking role, replaces the fullback on many running plays.

 

[Urgent]

One of the interesting points for me in this game was the direct competition between the #16 and #17 picks in the draft.

Early on in the draft process I fell for Ryan Kerrigan. He was my top pick for the Patriots, and I was very disappointed to see him go one spot before the Patriots drafted, as I was disappointed that the Pats did not move up for Aldon Smith, Quinn, or Kerrigan.

Anyway, Solder was at RT and Kerrigan at LDE. For most of the game they lined up opposite each other. That's really rare to see - the guy you wanted who went one slot earlier against the guy you got, competing against each other every down.

You have to say Solder won that comparison.

 

[TheTruth3402]

One of the interesting points for me in this game was the direct competition between the #16 and #17 picks in the draft.

Early on in the draft process I fell for Ryan Kerrigan. He was my top pick for the Patriots, and I was very disappointed to see him go one spot before the Patriots drafted, as I was disappointed that the Pats did not move up for Aldon Smith, Quinn, or Kerrigan.

Anyway, Solder was at RT and Kerrigan at LDE. For most of the game they lined up opposite each other. That's really rare to see - the guy you wanted who went one slot earlier against the guy you got, competing against each other every down.

You have to say Solder won that comparison.

Yeah, I would say so. I don't even think Kerrigan got a QB hit.

Can't argue with Solder this year, his presence has been a big boost to our banged up o-line.

However, you can't argue with the production of Kerrigan and Aldon Smith either. 3 homerun picks right there.

 

[Patspsycho]

Redskins rush defense is very good so the pats employed wha they usually do with the steelers .Throw and throw all the time. They just didnt execute well enough and made mistakes for it to be close.

Redskins ranks #17 in rushing defense. Middle of the pack- not that good.

 

[strngplyr]

Redskins rush defense is very good so the pats employed wha they usually do with the steelers .Throw and throw all the time. They just didnt execute well enough and made mistakes for it to be close.

You must have missed our multiple ~10+ yard rushes against them. Their run D isn't actually that good. We had several first down runs resulting in first downs.

For some unkown reason though, we passed, passed, and then passed some more. The run game was working perfectly fine, and is usually a better option to kill the clock.

 

[PATFAN WAITING FOR 4]

NO DEFENSE + NO RUN GAME = NO PLAYOFF WINS.

Brady and the offense have been carrying this team for seven years with no defensive help. It's time to spend the big bucks on bigger, faster, and more talented defensive linemen and backs. How many years does Brady have left?

Still waiting for their 4th Super Bowl title.

 

[ATippett56]

You must have missed our multiple ~10+ yard rushes against them. Their run D isn't actually that good. We had several first down runs resulting in first downs.

For some unkown reason though, we passed, passed, and then passed some more. The run game was working perfectly fine, and is usually a better option to kill the clock.

Play calling, Play calling, Play calling. If I remember correctly in the second quarter, the New England Patriots had the ball on the Washington 5 yard line, second down and two yards to go for a first down. For two consecutive offensive plays the New England Patriots offense went EMPTY BACKFIELD.

 

[strngplyr]

Play calling, Play calling, Play calling. If I remember correctly in the second quarter, the New England Patriots had the ball on the Washington 5 yard line, second down and two yards to go for a first down. For two consecutive offensive plays the New England Patriots offense went EMPTY BACKFIELD.

Yup, rather disappointing. From memory, this was one of our best rushing performances all season, if not THE best (when we actually ran, that is), we were moving the ball at will on the ground. Instead we passed for something like the first 8 plays. Brady had under 50% completion for much of the game, while finishing with a Sanchez-esque 59% for the game.

Our offense needs to help our defense in more ways than just scoring. Scoring is great, but scoring in 2:30 every time could end up hurting us. The defense IS capable of stopping teams, just not when they spend 37 minutes on the field.

 

[Deus Irae]

For those wondering about the lack of run calls....

Patriots (non-Brady) run plays resulted in

1 (BJGE)
13 (BJGE)
5 (BJGE)
0 (BJGE)
12 (Woodhead)
3 (Woodhead)
8 (Woodhead)
6 (Faulk)
0 (Faulk)
2 (Woodhead)
5 (Faulk)
2 (Woodhead)
0 (BJGE)
0 (Woodhead)
12 (Woodhead)
2 (Woodhead)

16 runs

4 for 0 yards
1 for 1 yard
3 for 2 yards

So.... half of the 16 carries resulted in 2 yards or fewer (3of BJGE's 5 runs went 0 yards or 1 yard). Woodhead's best runs tend to come out of shotgun formations. The running game has to get more consistently good out of normal sets in order to be reliable and get more play. I'm sure BB would rather give it more work, but he can't with this team's defense not being able to hold opponents down.

 

[ATippett56]

The running game has to get more consistently good out of normal sets in order to be reliable and get more play.

Dante needs to roll up his sleeves and put the "boys" to work.

 

[Mack Herron]

For those wondering about the lack of run calls....

Patriots (non-Brady) run plays resulted in

1 (BJGE)
13 (BJGE)
5 (BJGE)
0 (BJGE)
12 (Woodhead)
3 (Woodhead)
8 (Woodhead)
6 (Faulk)
0 (Faulk)
2 (Woodhead)
5 (Faulk)
2 (Woodhead)
0 (BJGE)
0 (Woodhead)
12 (Woodhead)
2 (Woodhead)

16 runs

4 for 0 yards
1 for 1 yard
3 for 2 yards

So.... half of the 16 carries resulted in 2 yards or fewer (3of BJGE's 5 runs went 0 yards or 1 yard). Woodhead's best runs tend to come out of shotgun formations. The running game has to get more consistently good out of normal sets in order to be reliable and get more play. I'm sure BB would rather give it more work, but he can't with this team's defense not being able to hold opponents down.

Good point. So after drafting a CB and 2 RBs, the defense is in the toilet, the running game sucks, and there is no sign that either can be relied upon in Jan. So barring a miracle, we will go as far a Brady can take us.

 

[Deus Irae]

Good point. So after drafting a CB and 2 RBs, the defense is in the toilet, the running game sucks, and there is no sign that either can be relied upon in Jan. So barring a miracle, we will go as far a Brady can take us.

I think it's more accurate, though much longer, to say....

After losing Koppen/Connolly/Vollmer, and having to work with a patchwork line, the continuity required to really get the running game going is missing. Adding in the increased use of Gronkowski in the passing game, the early season concussion to Woodhead, the fact that Faulk was on PUP and is still making his way back from ACL surgery, and the lingering toe injury to BJGE, you get a situation where the team needs to get reps in the running game in order to get it ramped up. Unfortunately, the defense's inability to shut down opponents does not allow that sort of work to be done, and the Patriots are in a position where they really need to have some laughers in order to get some serious running work in.


In that vein, we could see a lot of the running game against Denver, and it's possible that it will get a lot of work against Buffalo, as well.

 

[TheTruth3402]

Good point. So after drafting a CB and 2 RBs, the defense is in the toilet, the running game sucks, and there is no sign that either can be relied upon in Jan. So barring a miracle, we will go as far a Brady can take us.

Can't blame Vereen and Ridley. They've barely gotten a chance to show their ability.

I know Benny is a rock, but I don't think anyone would doubt that these two are more explosive. I'd love to see more touches. If we are relying solely on Brady in January I blame the play-calling, not the personnel.

As for Ras-I... he no doubt would be a tremendous help at this point, (based on what he showed earlier this year), but it was always going to be a big risk drafting him. I think they should have waited, and if someone else took him, oh well. IMO, 33rd is too high for such a risky selection.

 

[TheTruth3402]

I think it's more accurate, though much longer, to say....

After losing Koppen/Connolly/Vollmer, and having to work with a patchwork line, the continuity required to really get the running game going is missing. Adding in the increased use of Gronkowski in the passing game, the early season concussion to Woodhead, the fact that Faulk was on PUP and is still making his way back from ACL surgery, and the lingering toe injury to BJGE, you get a situation where the team needs to get reps in the running game in order to get it ramped up. Unfortunately, the defense's inability to shut down opponents does not allow that sort of work to be done, and the Patriots are in a position where they really need to have some laughers in order to get some serious running work in.


In that vein, we could see a lot of the running game against Denver, and it's possible that it will get a lot of work against Buffalo, as well.

Oh, come on, Deus, you're making excuses for them. Buffalo has juggled personnel on the o-line all year too, and look how productive Fred Jackson was before he got injured.

Run blocking is typically much easier for lineman, its the pass blocking thats difficult.

IMO, the coaching staff has just fallen in love a little too much with the pass attack. I advocate running so strongly not because its more effective, or that we don't pass well enough, but because it chews up clock and keeps our defense off the field.

Provided we are still moving the ball and turning long drives into points not many offenses are going to be able to keep up.

 

[Deus Irae]

Oh, come on, Deus, you're making excuses for them. Buffalo has juggled personnel on the o-line all year too, and look how productive Fred Jackson was before he got injured.

Run blocking is typically much easier for lineman, its the pass blocking thats difficult.

IMO, the coaching staff has just fallen in love a little too much with the pass attack. I advocate running so strongly not because its more effective, or that we don't pass well enough, but because it chews up clock and keeps our defense off the field.

Provided we are still moving the ball and turning long drives into points not many offenses are going to be able to keep up.

I'm not making excuses at all. What I'm doing is looking at the reasons.

How many yards is Jackson getting now that he's out injured? Well, that's just an extreme end of what BJGE and Woodhead have gone through this season. I've had a toe injury and tried to play through it (Different sport at the time, same inability to run worth a damn). I've never had to deal with a concussion, but we could all clearly see that Woodhead was just a shadow of his former self, and you can look at any game thread to see people screaming about how slow Faulk looks as he takes the time needed to get back from his injury.

How well did the NYJ do when they lost Mangold? Well, that was just one man. The Patriots lost their starting center, their starting RG (upgraded!, but stay with me)/backup center, and have ended up playing a 3rd string center. They've had the problem with Vollmer all season as well, and Solder has been moved in and out of the starting lineup as a result.

And, unfortunately, this team doesn't have the luxury of screwing around with the offense in order to get work on the running game.

 

[TheTruth3402]

I'm not making excuses at all. What I'm doing is looking at the reasons.

How many yards is Jackson getting now that he's out injured? Well, that's just an extreme end of what BJGE and Woodhead have gone through this season. I've had a toe injury and tried to play through it (Different sport at the time, same inability to run worth a damn). I've never had to deal with a concussion, but we could all clearly see that Woodhead was just a shadow of his former self, and you can look at any game thread to see people screaming about how slow Faulk looks as he takes the time needed to get back from his injury.

How well did the NYJ do when they lost Mangold? Well, that was just one man. The Patriots lost their starting center, their starting RG (upgraded!, but stay with me)/backup center, and have ended up playing a 3rd string center. They've had the problem with Vollmer all season as well, and Solder has been moved in and out of the starting lineup as a result.

And, unfortunately, this team doesn't have the luxury of screwing around with the offense in order to get work on the running game.

Its certainly true that the Jets struggled mightily with the loss of Mangold, but he was by far their best run blocker. Ours are Mankins, Waters and Light- in that order. Even with all the changes our best personnel haven't been out.

Regardless of whether or not the staff has accurately taught the new guys the fundamentals of the Pats run scheme, every offensive lineman understands run blocking. And its easier to go forward and be the aggressor than it is to be on your heels protecting the league's best QB.

As for the argument that our top running options have struggled with nagging injuries, and thus, haven't been able to establish a rhythm: Because we are so deep at RB, we should just be able to plug the next man in. There was no reason to rush BJGE or Woodhead back, (and certainly no excuse for seeing so much Kevin Faulk, especially in that Pittsburgh game).

Its all the more reason to give someone like Ridley a shot. IIRC, he hasn't been injured at all. After seeing what a rookie runner like Helu did last week it makes me consider what Ridley could do given more reps.