Patriots Slot Corner

[Ring 6]

How is that a meaningful question? Each starts out slated to take well over 90% of the defensive snaps.

Phrase it however you wish, the basic question is how can anyone suggest that Bodden is a better cornerback than a man who, as a rookie played better than Bodden ever has in his career? BTW, I don't think Bodden played 90% of the snaps in 2009, but I could be wrong.

 

[Ring 6]

So how do you feel about Brandon Tate?

He is a young player who needs to improve a lot, but seems to have the potential to. I'm not sure what that has to do with this thread.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

McCourty is already better than Bodden. It's that simple.

McCourty was excellent on the outside last year. He was physical at the line, rerouted WR's to the outside and used the sideline as help, and he came up hard vs the run and tackled well.

McCourty struggled at times when he had to cover the middle of the field. Mike Wallace chewed him a few times over the middle. Against the Vikings, when McCourty moved inside vs Harvin, Harvin chewed him pretty well on a few routes. Even on the strip-interception McCourty had vs Harvin, Harvin was lined up in the slot and beat McCourty pretty cleanly on the route.

It's very rare that an elite corner moves inside and is just as effective as he is outside. Even Rex was hesitant at moving Revis inside and seldom did. The only guy that really does it with a great deal of success is Charles Woodson.

But I don't know why you would want to take McCourty and move him to the slot when we are in nickel or dime. Not only has he shown that he is not as strong when asked to cover in the slot, but he has far and away been the best all around outside CB this team has had since Ty Law. Bodden had a solid year in 2009, but McCourty was a lot better as a rookie than Bodden was in 2010.

Therefore, going into camp, I see it as McCourty as a lock on the outside as our #1 CB. Butler, Wilhite, and Arrington will likely battle for nickel and dime duties. Assuming he's healthy, Bodden has a pretty firm grip on the #2 CB spot and will likely being the season as the starter opposite McCourty.

Dowling is the wildcard here. He really has no experience in the slot, has the build/body type/style of a physical, outside the numbers press corner. You'd think, if he's going to be a regular, he'd be competing with Bodden for snaps at an outside spot.

My guess would be that McCourty and Bodden are the regular starting corners. Butler/Wilhite/Arrington battle it out for slot duties in nickel and dime packages. Dowling is used on on gameplan-based matchup basis.

If we're playing SD and they've got V-Jax, or we're playing the Jets and they have Braylon/Moss/Plax, Dowling could figure into the gameplan in a big way with his ability to cover taller/bigger/more physical receivers. If we're playing the Jets and are having difficulty covering Keller or we're playing the Colts and don't have any LB or S that can really hang with Dallas Clark, Dowling could be used to match up with those "move TE's" who are difficult to cover. He brings a tremendous amount of versatility.

 

[BlueThunder]

If we're playing SD and they've got V-Jax, or we're playing the Jets and they have Braylon/Moss/Plax,

Did I pull a Rip Van Winkle and the Jet's signed Moss & Burress while I snoozed?

 

[ausbacker]

Wow. McCourty is in the probowl and loses his job to a guy who sat out the season and never played as well as McCourty did last year. Good way to alienate your player.

Sure there is a difference, which is why I said "by that standard' but there is a large similarity too. You are ignoring production on the field and placing more time playing worse ahead of less time playing better, because you worry the 2nd year player may decline. In this case you could be worried that Brady is too old--he will be someday---so until he proves he is over the hill we better put the young guy in. It is an illustration of ignoring who is the better player for a much less consequential factor. If you can't see the difference here then its pointless contiuning this discussion.

It's obvious you're being argumentative for the sake of it. That or you simply can't read too well given it's a perfectly rational decision to rate a veteran ahead of a sophomore rookie waiting for a trend to establish itself.

You refuse to accept that regression is a possibility just as improvement is. You also seem dismissive of the comment that if McCourty shows the same prolonged form as 2010 I'll rocket him to #1 immediately.

 

[supafly]

McCourty is already better than Bodden. It's that simple.

McCourty was excellent on the outside last year. He was physical at the line, rerouted WR's to the outside and used the sideline as help, and he came up hard vs the run and tackled well.

McCourty struggled at times when he had to cover the middle of the field. Mike Wallace chewed him a few times over the middle. Against the Vikings, when McCourty moved inside vs Harvin, Harvin chewed him pretty well on a few routes. Even on the strip-interception McCourty had vs Harvin, Harvin was lined up in the slot and beat McCourty pretty cleanly on the route.

It's very rare that an elite corner moves inside and is just as effective as he is outside. Even Rex was hesitant at moving Revis inside and seldom did. The only guy that really does it with a great deal of success is Charles Woodson.

But I don't know why you would want to take McCourty and move him to the slot when we are in nickel or dime. Not only has he shown that he is not as strong when asked to cover in the slot, but he has far and away been the best all around outside CB this team has had since Ty Law. Bodden had a solid year in 2009, but McCourty was a lot better as a rookie than Bodden was in 2010.

Therefore, going into camp, I see it as McCourty as a lock on the outside as our #1 CB. Butler, Wilhite, and Arrington will likely battle for nickel and dime duties. Assuming he's healthy, Bodden has a pretty firm grip on the #2 CB spot and will likely being the season as the starter opposite McCourty.

Dowling is the wildcard here. He really has no experience in the slot, has the build/body type/style of a physical, outside the numbers press corner. You'd think, if he's going to be a regular, he'd be competing with Bodden for snaps at an outside spot.

My guess would be that McCourty and Bodden are the regular starting corners. Butler/Wilhite/Arrington battle it out for slot duties in nickel and dime packages. Dowling is used on on gameplan-based matchup basis.

If we're playing SD and they've got V-Jax, or we're playing the Jets and they have Braylon/Moss/Plax, Dowling could figure into the gameplan in a big way with his ability to cover taller/bigger/more physical receivers. If we're playing the Jets and are having difficulty covering Keller or we're playing the Colts and don't have any LB or S that can really hang with Dallas Clark, Dowling could be used to match up with those "move TE's" who are difficult to cover. He brings a tremendous amount of versatility.

Very nice post.

I certainly agree that moving McCourty inside is not the best idea to utilize his skill set, and that he blossomed outside, while also struggling inside at times. I do not know why so many would be willing to mess with TWO cornerback assignments, when you consider that

A) McCourty excelled outside. Arrington, Butler, Wilhite certainly have not.

B) McCourty did not play as well inside--Arrington, Butler, and Wilhite are more likely to contribute there.

I see the 'wildcard' of Dowling as you said, specific spot duty assignments, and slow progressive reps on sub-package situations. I don't think we'll have to worry about Dowling taking over Bodden this year, but if it happens--all the better. That's what I think the plan is, for him to eventually take over Leigh Bodden's spot--IF there even is a 'plan.' Sometimes it's as simple as continuing to try and upgrade your back end CB's, and that may be exactly what the coach felt. You can't say that we've seen much from the other 3 so far, so why not go grab a young, tall, athletic CB on a very financially friendly rookie deal? Throw more darts at the wall, see if any of them stick...I felt that this particular draft we had more of a luxury than in many other years due to already having a lot of positions filled, and the choices of Mallett, Ridley, and Dowling have reaffirmed my feelings.

 

[Ring 6]

It's obvious you're being argumentative for the sake of it. That or you simply can't read too well given it's a perfectly rational decision to rate a veteran ahead of a sophomore rookie waiting for a trend to establish itself.

You refuse to accept that regression is a possibility just as improvement is. You also seem dismissive of the comment that if McCourty shows the same prolonged form as 2010 I'll rocket him to #1 immediately.

McCourty is a better cornerback than Bodden. If something changes in the level McCourty has shown he plays the game at that could change.

There is no waiting to see in answering who is better right now. For your position to be correct you must project that McCourty WILL drop off, all while ignoring you are putting him behind a guy who didn't even play last year.

 

[ausbacker]

McCourty is a better cornerback than Bodden. If something changes in the level McCourty has shown he plays the game at that could change.

There is no waiting to see in answering who is better right now. For your position to be correct you must project that McCourty WILL drop off, all while ignoring you are putting him behind a guy who didn't even play last year.

It's abundantly clear I'm just repeating myself because you're either incapable of reading properly or simply don't accept an opinion other than yours.

I won't be responding to your further in this thread.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

I do have to say, watching and doing the Butler, McCourty and Kyle A videos, the pats were in a lot of zone defenses. Lots of Cover 3 and Cover 4 sets.

 

[Joker]

There's a reason teams stopped throwing on McCourty half way through the season...Ive seen a lot of backfield players over the years...some just have "it"..McCourty showed that last season...really, I'd be flabbergasted if he regressed this year. Bodden is a very good corner. He's shown that. Why it has to be a pissing contest in relation to these two players is beyond me.The if about Bodden is will he be 100% of what he was pre-injury...if he is, then I'd have to say both corner positions are locked up. Dowling strikes me as a future safety. with Arrington sliding to the slot receiver. Butler remains too big a question mark to make any kind of determination other than 4th corner IMHO.

 

[ausbacker]

There's a reason teams stopped throwing on McCourty half way through the season...Ive seen a lot of backfield players over the years...some just have "it"..McCourty showed that last season...really, I'd be flabbergasted if he regressed this year. Bodden is a very good corner. He's shown that. Why it has to be a pissing contest in relation to these two players is beyond me.The if about Bodden is will he be 100% of what he was pre-injury...if he is, then I'd have to say both corner positions are locked up. Dowling strikes me as a future safety. with Arrington sliding to the slot receiver. Butler remains too big a question mark to make any kind of determination other than 4th corner IMHO.

That's the point Joker. Some people are insistent on making it a pissing contest when it doesn't need to be. I'm hopeful McCourty takes his game to another level, Bodden stays injury free and continues to produce and Dowling moves into the rotation and looks every bit a future Pro-Bowler.

 

[Ring 6]

It's abundantly clear I'm just repeating myself because you're either incapable of reading properly or simply don't accept an opinion other than yours.

I won't be responding to your further in this thread.

And you have consistently contradicted yourself throughout the thread agreeing that McCourty was a better player last year than Bodden ever was, and Bodden sat out a year, but continuing to say Bodden is a better player.
You seem to want it both ways, and blame me for not accepting that.
Whatever.

 

[Off The Grid]

Well, it's just a philosophical difference, isn't it?

Personally, I agree with AJ: It Is What It Is. McCourty is clearly an Alpha CornerBack.

What may or may not transpire in the future does not change the present.

We're not talking about potential, here.

McCourty IS clearly an Alpha CornerBack.

Bodden is awesome. I got on my knees and PRAYED for us to snatch up this Old School BLASTER two years ago, and cackled with diabolical GLEE when we actually DID so.

I hope he stays with us a LONG TIME.

But there's no question who the premier Corner is, on this squad.

***

But I'd like to append: Brother AusBacker's position is valid.

I think it's wrong, mind you...but it is reasonable...defensible.

Many ~ including myself ~ are not entirely comfortable including current players and Coaches in Greatest Of All Time discussions. Don Shula, Tom Landry, and Chuck Noll, for instance, probably enjoyed far better standing earlier in their careers than they did at the ends of them.

And while General Tom Brady has certainly elevated himself to the highest Tier amongst all time QB's, I don't think it will be until he earns the additional 3 to 5 Super Bowl Rings that I expect of him...that his preeminent Greatness will become indisputable.

But McCourty is no Cromartie.

Not even close.

 

[Off The Grid]

As for Slot Corner...

Ras I Dowling, as I've said and will reiterate, strikes me as an extremely strong candidate to switch to Free Safety. I don't like his Verticity: Turn + Burn Accuity.

Darius Butler, for my money, is the clear fit, here: Small. Quick. Rapid Verticity.

Johny Bust is going to surprise a lot of people, I think...and make them wish they could delete old posts!!

Kyle Arrington and the much maligned John Wihlite, I like as scrappy depth.

And let's Tag + Trade Stomper after what I anticipate to be a very productive Contract Year.

 

[italia44]

As for Slot Corner...

Ras I Dowling, as I've said and will reiterate, strikes me as an extremely strong candidate to switch to Free Safety. I don't like his Verticity: Turn + Burn Accuity.

Darius Butler, for my money, is the clear fit, here: Small. Quick. Rapid Verticity.

Johny Bust is going to surprise a lot of people, I think...and make them wish they could delete old posts!!

Kyle Arrington and the much maligned John Wihlite, I like as scrappy depth.

And let's Tag + Trade Stomper after what I anticipate to be a very productive Contract Year.

:wha:Verticity????.......Turn and burn accuity????

Got your new DC Comics issue,didn't ya?

 

[Off The Grid]

:wha:Verticity????.......Turn and burn accuity????

Got your new DC Comics issue,didn't ya?

We BADLY need a word to describe the ability to Turn + Burn...to Flip the Hips...to Rapidly Redirect.

"Verticity" ~ which fundamentally refers to the "quality of rotation" ~ is the closest I could come up with, so far...

 

[italia44]

We BADLY need a word to describe the ability to Turn + Burn...to Flip the Hips...to Rapidly Redirect.

"Verticity" ~ which fundamentally refers to the "quality of rotation" ~ is the closest I could come up with, so far...

Mrs Malaprop concurs:rocker:

 

[ausbacker]

Well, it's just a philosophical difference, isn't it?

Personally, I agree with AJ: It Is What It Is. McCourty is clearly an Alpha CornerBack.

What may or may not transpire in the future does not change the present.

We're not talking about potential, here.

McCourty IS clearly an Alpha CornerBack.

Bodden is awesome. I got on my knees and PRAYED for us to snatch up this Old School BLASTER two years ago, and cackled with diabolical GLEE when we actually DID so.

I hope he stays with us a LONG TIME.

But there's no question who the premier Corner is, on this squad.

***

But I'd like to append: Brother AusBacker's position is valid.

I think it's wrong, mind you...but it is reasonable...defensible.

Many ~ including myself ~ are not entirely comfortable including current players and Coaches in Greatest Of All Time discussions. Don Shula, Tom Landry, and Chuck Noll, for instance, probably enjoyed far better standing earlier in their careers than they did at the ends of them.

And while General Tom Brady has certainly elevated himself to the highest Tier amongst all time QB's, I don't think it will be until he earns the additional 3 to 5 Super Bowl Rings that I expect of him...that his preeminent Greatness will become indisputable.

But McCourty is no Cromartie.

Not even close.

It's not that I don't disagree McCourty is a stud (because I clearly do) I just want to see him show that form again. That's all.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Did I pull a Rip Van Winkle and the Jet's signed Moss & Burress while I snoozed?

Haha, nah. I was just saying I expect the Jets to have a "big" WR, whether they keep Braylon or go out and sign Moss/Plax to a prove-it type of deal. Braylon's ability to get vertical and compete for jump balls helped out Sanchez tremendously when the Jets tried to take shots down the field and even in the red zone (remember what he did to Darius Butler?)

Very nice post.

I certainly agree that moving McCourty inside is not the best idea to utilize his skill set, and that he blossomed outside, while also struggling inside at times. I do not know why so many would be willing to mess with TWO cornerback assignments, when you consider that

A) McCourty excelled outside. Arrington, Butler, Wilhite certainly have not.

B) McCourty did not play as well inside--Arrington, Butler, and Wilhite are more likely to contribute there.

I see the 'wildcard' of Dowling as you said, specific spot duty assignments, and slow progressive reps on sub-package situations. I don't think we'll have to worry about Dowling taking over Bodden this year, but if it happens--all the better. That's what I think the plan is, for him to eventually take over Leigh Bodden's spot--IF there even is a 'plan.' Sometimes it's as simple as continuing to try and upgrade your back end CB's, and that may be exactly what the coach felt. You can't say that we've seen much from the other 3 so far, so why not go grab a young, tall, athletic CB on a very financially friendly rookie deal? Throw more darts at the wall, see if any of them stick...I felt that this particular draft we had more of a luxury than in many other years due to already having a lot of positions filled, and the choices of Mallett, Ridley, and Dowling have reaffirmed my feelings.

I agree with basically everything you said.

The more you watch guys like Butler and Wilhite, the more you realize they might be better suited for the slot. They're not very physical at the line. Their game is based on more quickness/athleticism than being physical/re-routing guys/playing outside the numbers.

Arrington was physical at the line and good vs the run, but he was pretty putrid in coverage for most of the year. He's a great special teamer and nice 4th/5th CB to have, but doesn't belong in the convo for a full time job.

McCourty and Bodden both excelled on the outside in this defense -- if it ain't broke don't fix it. McCourty struggled inside at times and Bodden never played inside (from what I remember).

It just seems that the most logical thing to do is to let Butler/Wilhite battle for slot duties.

I really loved the Dowling pick. I've wanted a big press corner in the Asomugha/Sean Smith/more physical Cromartie mold for the past few years. Really love the versatility and physicality he will bring to this defense. I'm not expecting him to step in and be what McCourty was, but I expect him to contribute more than Butler/Wheatley did in their rookie years as 2nd round picks. Dowling is by far my favorite Pats rookie.

This is the best group of corners we've had in quite a while. I'm very optimistic about this group, but still very skeptical of the pass rush.

 

[NinjaZX6R]

Kyle Arrington Part 1
‪No. 27 Kyle Arrington 2010 Season Part 1 (Jets 1-SD)‬‏ - YouTube

Not sure if I posted the last part of Butler.