No wonder Seymour fired his 1st agent

[DSal]

It's at least possible that you're the only one. Of course we lost "value" while he was injured. But around the middle of this past season, we saw what we paid for --- awesome talent just throwing offenses into disarray. They surely were having to gameplan for Rosie in 2005!

You're absolutely right. Rosie Colvin's play last year meant that we didn't have to over pay Willie this year. While I hate to see Willie in Cleveland, Rosie will transition perfectly.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

I do not know what Seymour's escalaters were, but some may have simply been tied to playing time, and he has missed time in each of the last two seasons. Seymour didn't want to sign that 6 year deal, if you remember he was one of the last 1st rd picks to sign. That is what the Pats were doing, and it was so sucessful, that the Players union, made it a change in the bew CBA, (now rookie contracts can be only 4 or 5 years at the most).

Seymour is the best Defensive lineman in the NFL, (if you don't believe me ask Tom Brady... He said so at the end of the Jacksonville game, you know the one were Willie had 4.5 sacks). They are going to sign Seymour come August, it is in Seymour's best interest to sign now, he voids the last year of his rookie contract, gets a huge signing bonus and does not have to deal with being franchised for the next two seasons. Because let's face it, he is going to be one of the highest paid DL in the league anyways, if he signs he gets his signing bonus. Hopefully the deal is already done, and the Pats and Seymour are just waiting for August to come around. The key here is to see if Seymour shows up during mini-camp in MAY, if he does and does say boo about a new contract, then I think we can assume the deal is done.

 

[Pats726]

1.) Seymour is probably the only Pro-Bowler from the 2001 draft that is still playing under his rookie contract.
2.) Seymour's rookie deal included $10.2 million in escalators. Seymour earned only $3.25 million of those escalators. When a 4-time Pro Bowler, 3-time All-Pro player, and a mainstay of a team that won 3 Super Bowls in a 5-year span earns less than a third of his escalators, there is something wrong with that contract.

With that all said and in the past, what will that mean now and in the near future?? Will he demand way too much for the Patriots to comply?? Will they be able to reach a deal amicably?? Is this rule of no two extensions of a contract within a year a new rule or old?? If old, then obviously both parties knew at that point they could not revisit that till a year was up..why would there be a fuss now?? If it is a new CBA rule, who does that benefit and why is it in there?? Is this going to be a case of Seymour walking away from NE??

 

[Miguel]

1.) Seymour is probably the only Pro-Bowler from the 2001 draft that is still playing under his rookie contract.
2.) Seymour's rookie deal included $10.2 million in escalators. Seymour earned only $3.25 million of those escalators. When a 4-time Pro Bowler, 3-time All-Pro player, and a mainstay of a team that won 3 Super Bowls in a 5-year span earns less than a third of his escalators, there is something wrong with that contract.

Oops, I forgot to carry the one. Seymour earned 4.25 million in escalators.

Info about the escalators -
"The 6-foot-6-inch, 299-pound defensive lineman from Georgia can make another $10 million in escalator clauses, but he would have be a Reggie White -type player to earn that over the life of the contract"
"Richard Seymour "can earn up to $3.4 million in salary escalators next year and $6.8 million in the final year of the deal based on performance, playing time, playoff appearances, and Pro Bowls. The escalators aren't easy to achieve, even for a player of his caliber."

" escalators are tied to playing time, playoffs and Pro Bowls. The playing time element could be starts, but it's most likely the percentage of defensive snaps he plays."

 

[Pats726]

Oops, I forgot to carry the one. Seymour earned 4.25 million in escalators.

Info about the escalators -
"The 6-foot-6-inch, 299-pound defensive lineman from Georgia can make another $10 million in escalator clauses, but he would have be a Reggie White -type player to earn that over the life of the contract"
"Richard Seymour "can earn up to $3.4 million in salary escalators next year and $6.8 million in the final year of the deal based on performance, playing time, playoff appearances, and Pro Bowls. The escalators aren't easy to achieve, even for a player of his caliber."

" escalators are tied to playing time, playoffs and Pro Bowls. The playing time element could be starts, but it's most likely the percentage of defensive snaps he plays."

Who was his agent??? I would think HE would be one players should keep away from...

 

[Miguel]

Out of curiosity, I compiled a list of other Pro Bowlers from the 2001 draft (I have probably missed some, esp. alternates; e.g., did Reggie Wayne make the PB as an alternate?):

Alge Crumpler (3x),
Casey Hampton (2x), Chad Johnson (3x), Chris Chambers (1x), Deuce McAllister (2x), Drew Brees (1x), Koren Robinson (1x), Kris Jenkins (1x), LaDainian Tomlinson (3x), Marcus Stroud (3x), Michael Vick (3x), Nate Clements (1x), Richard Seymour (4x), Rudi Johnson (1x, as a 4th-rounder), Santana Moss (1x), Steve Smith (2x, as a 3rd-rounder), Travis Henry (1x).

Crumpler, Hampton, Chad, Chambers, McAllister, Jenkins, LT, Stroud, Vick, Rudi Johnson, and Steve Smith have all been extended. Brees, Robinson, Moss, and Henry are on new teams. Clements has been franchised this year.

 

[Miguel]

If old, then obviously both parties knew at that point they could not revisit that till a year was up..why would there be a fuss now??

I am going to answer the only question that I can now. And my answer will not provide any clarity. I do not get why Seymour's agent would agree to this deal. He, IMO, should have made this year a phony year with Seymour having such a huge cap number that the Pats would have deal with Seymour in February/March. As it stands right now, the only leverage Seymour has is to withhold his services.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Value Commensurate to Cost?

I would agree that Brady has higher value to the team than Colvin. This is reflected by Brady being the Patriot with the highest cap number.

I do not agree that Colvin is more valuable to the team than any player excepting Brady.

Take a look at Miguel's pages, including the future cap hits page. Colvin's a $5.78M hit this year - more than Richard Seymour, more than Corey Dillon, more than Tedy Bruschi. He was a value commensurate $2.37M in 2005. But every year from now going forward, Colvin becomes an albatross. $6.73M in 2007, $7.63M in 2008, and then another contract to negotiate in 2009.

Colvin was a long time coming back, during which time he was a rehab project. I love the guy, I really do. But let's see, we're talking (in 2007) in the ballpark of 9 million for Sey, 7 million for Colvin, and 11 million for Brady for a grand total of [fanfare] 27 million dollars for three players.

At the very least, Colvin's got to re-do his deal, unless we're saying his value is among the team's top three playmakers. I place him more in the large middle class whence he came, and for which New England is famous.

PFnV

 

[Miguel]

He'll have to do it as a Franchised player, there's no way he just walks.

Here's the problem with franchising Seymour. The Pats will not control where Seymour goes. If a good team like the Steelers, Dolphins, Jets, Bengals, or Chargers decides that signing Seymour is worth giving up a late 1st round pick in two consecutive years, then all Seymour has to is sign their tender offer and he will within a week become a member of that team. So the Pats will have gotten worse in several spots on their DL chart and Seymour's new team will have gotten better in several spots on their DL chart.

Let's say that the Pats intend to trade Seymour to a NFC team. They can not force Seymour to sign a tender offer from a NFC team.

 

[aabtec]

Seymour is going to demand a big signing bonus. I hope the Patriots can afford his greed.

He has earned it..remember its a business.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Here's the problem with franchising Seymour. The Pats will not control where Seymour goes. If a good team like the Steelers, Dolphins, Jets, Bengals, or Chargers decides that signing Seymour is worth giving up a late 1st round pick in two consecutive years, then all Seymour has to is sign their tender offer and he will within a week become a member of that team. So the Pats will have gotten worse in several spots on their DL chart and Seymour's new team will have gotten better in several spots on their DL chart.

Let's say that the Pats intend to trade Seymour to a NFC team. They can not force Seymour to sign a tender offer from a NFC team.

Remember there are exclusive and non-exclusive franchise players. We exclusive franchised Adam in the past so he could not talk to other teams or be tendered. I assume the exclusive tag would be applied on any player where the intention was either to retain him yourself or arrange to tag and trade him. You are still limited because you have to match up with a team both willing to meet your compensation demands and his contract demands, but you aren't forced to consider any team you choose not to. Of course the player retains the leverage that he can simply withold services if you fail to get a deal done with someone, but by and large the players first concern is simply finding a team or two in the mix who will meet his contract demands going forward.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Oops, I forgot to carry the one. Seymour earned 4.25 million in escalators.

Info about the escalators -
"The 6-foot-6-inch, 299-pound defensive lineman from Georgia can make another $10 million in escalator clauses, but he would have be a Reggie White -type player to earn that over the life of the contract"
"Richard Seymour "can earn up to $3.4 million in salary escalators next year and $6.8 million in the final year of the deal based on performance, playing time, playoff appearances, and Pro Bowls. The escalators aren't easy to achieve, even for a player of his caliber."

" escalators are tied to playing time, playoffs and Pro Bowls. The playing time element could be starts, but it's most likely the percentage of defensive snaps he plays."

I believe there was some talk last season in the media that his escalators were closely tied to playing time and playoff apearances. 2002 hurt him because we did not make the playoffs, 2004 hurt him because while we made the playoffs he sat out until the Superbowl.

While I am sure BB would prefer to retain this player, I also believe he probably has some growing durability concerns. He also knows that all other things being equal (the rest of the defense playing at full strength) we have won without him. And as a team leader, which is part of what BB needs Richard to be, he has to be willing to drink the financial koolaid ala Brady. It's the core leaders who have to set that all for one and one for all tone or we will be facing more and more of this years scenario - guys leaving for top of the market or above market deals.

Richard unfortunately has some Lawyer in him, and while he has not been that vocal about it in the past he has become moreso in the last year. He was the first player to publicly buck or challenge BB by holding out of TC. He makes no bones about not buying the home town discount mantra. While he may appreciate our paying more to assemble a better middle class, he doesn't want that money coming out of his pocket. He says things like if I am the best I should be paid as the best (a little cover of saying I'm not saying I am but if you guys are, do the math).

I know some here believe there is no cut and dried won't pay top of the market mentality - rather just a won't overpay. We'll see with Seymour. I agree that if he shows up in camp it's a sign they are at least closing in on a deal. If he doesn't though, it's a sign they likely never will. And BB has to also factor in the value of his talent to this team if it can't stay on the field.

 

[smg93]

Remember there are exclusive and non-exclusive franchise players. We exclusive franchised Adam in the past so he could not talk to other teams or be tendered. I assume the exclusive tag would be applied on any player where the intention was either to retain him yourself or arrange to tag and trade him. You are still limited because you have to match up with a team both willing to meet your compensation demands and his contract demands, but you aren't forced to consider any team you choose not to. Of course the player retains the leverage that he can simply withold services if you fail to get a deal done with someone, but by and large the players first concern is simply finding a team or two in the mix who will meet his contract demands going forward.

Adam could have spoken to other teams last year if there was interest. If the Colts for instance were willing to pay Adam last year more than the 2.5 million the Pats offered under the franchise tag and BB/Pioli didn't match it, the Pats would have received a 1st round pick from Indianapolis in return.

 

[fgssand]

Sorry, Sey is the best DL in the NFL today, and he is replaceable. That defense that started last season and was horrible featured Seymour. An extension would be welcome, but losing him because he priced himself beyond BB's value board doesn't signal the end of D-line strength for the Patriots. Of course, were that to happen, we'd endure another period of endless whining, avoiding that would almost make it worthwhile to break the budget and return to mediocrity.

You do not replace the BEST at any position easily or successfully. RS makes those around him so much better. He is the glue that holds the defense together. He needs to be kept right here. He has said he will be reasonable, but also he does not happen to reside in Foxborough (no hometown discount).

I think we need to pay him and feel very good about it - he is to the defense as Tom Brady is to the offense.

 

[Pats726]

I am going to answer the only question that I can now. And my answer will not provide any clarity. I do not get why Seymour's agent would agree to this deal. He, IMO, should have made this year a phony year with Seymour having such a huge cap number that the Pats would have deal with Seymour in February/March. As it stands right now, the only leverage Seymour has is to withhold his services.

Miguel..Thanks for that...I am assuming the rule was an old one..true?? If it is..then what RS and his agent did was force a situation where the only way to resolve it is him sitting out again..That doesn't seem smart or good for the team or even good for him. Does this rule preclude a new contract or a way to negotiate??? In a way it puts him in a corner..not the best, but why would both parties agree to that?? It's almost like making it an issue no matter what and not leaving any way to resolve it. Pretty sad.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Adam could have spoken to other teams last year if there was interest. If the Colts for instance were willing to pay Adam last year more than the 2.5 million the Pats offered under the franchise tag and BB/Pioli didn't match it, the Pats would have received a 1st round pick from Indianapolis in return.

When you do not want the player to have the ability to shop himself and force you into a long term deal under someone elses terms, you avoid that situation by using the "exclusive" franchise tag. The Colts did that with Manning heading into the 2004 season. The standard franchise tag is used for a player you would be willing to part with for that compensation. I don't know which tag we put on Adam last season, but I do recall it being mentioned as the exclusive one back in 2002.

• A club can designate one franchise player or one transition player in any given year.
• The salary level offer by a player's old club determines what type of franchise player he is.

• An "exclusive" franchise player -- not free to sign with another club -- is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries at the player's position as of April 16, or 120 percent of the player's previous year's salary, whichever is greater.

• If the player is offered a minimum of the average of the top five salaries of last season at his position, or 120 percent of the player’s previous year’s salary, he becomes a “non-exclusive†franchise player and can negotiate with other clubs. His old club can match a new club's offer, or receive two first-round draft choices if it decides not to match.

 

[Pats726]

The question is what do you do??? He has said he wishes to remain a Patriot...But those words have been uttered by players like Woody and WIllie McG..as well. (Woody wished to stay but at dreamy megabucks that would never happen..and that statement seems odd esp if Willie already had a deal with Cleve). Does this force the Pats hand into getting a new deal done in the offseason?? Or force a confrontation or a trade or??

 

[BelichickFan]

Here's the problem with franchising Seymour. The Pats will not control where Seymour goes. If a good team like the Steelers, Dolphins, Jets, Bengals, or Chargers decides that signing Seymour is worth giving up a late 1st round pick in two consecutive years, then all Seymour has to is sign their tender offer and he will within a week become a member of that team. So the Pats will have gotten worse in several spots on their DL chart and Seymour's new team will have gotten better in several spots on their DL chart.

Let's say that the Pats intend to trade Seymour to a NFC team. They can not force Seymour to sign a tender offer from a NFC team.

What you say is true but if it came to it and a team gave us two #1 picks for him, even late ones, I wouldn't be crying about it. We'd have the money we don't spend on Seymour freed up plus two #1s two years in a row . . . I could live with that.

 

[Miguel]

I believe there was some talk last season in the media that his escalators were closely tied to playing time and playoff apearances. 2002 hurt him because we did not make the playoffs, 2004 hurt him because while we made the playoffs he sat out until the Superbowl.

IIRC, Seymour has played in 9 postseason games (3 in 2001, 3 in 2003, 1 in 2004, and 2 in 2005). If his rookie deal said that he had to play in 10, that was just not realistic especially for a player going to a 5-11 team.

 

[Miguel]

You are still limited because you have to match up with a team both willing to meet your compensation demands and his contract demands, but you aren't forced to consider any team you choose not to. Of course the player retains the leverage that he can simply withold services if you fail to get a deal done with someone, but by and large the players first concern is simply finding a team or two in the mix who will meet his contract demands going forward.

If RS wants to be a Steeler next year and the Patriots place an exclusive franchise tag on him, either RS plays for the Pats under the tag, plays for the Steelers or he holds out. The Pats are not going to be able to trade him to another team. Why?? No team is going to trade for a player that they do not have a deal worked out.