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No wonder Seymour fired his 1st agent

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Miguel, Apr 1, 2006.

  1. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    1.) Seymour is probably the only Pro-Bowler from the 2001 draft that is still playing under his rookie contract.
    2.) Seymour's rookie deal included $10.2 million in escalators. Seymour earned only $3.25 million of those escalators. When a 4-time Pro Bowler, 3-time All-Pro player, and a mainstay of a team that won 3 Super Bowls in a 5-year span earns less than a third of his escalators, there is something wrong with that contract.
  2. PatsChamps363839

    PatsChamps363839 Rookie

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    Seymour is going to demand a big signing bonus. I hope the Patriots can afford his greed.
    :confused:
  3. shakadave

    shakadave Rookie

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    I've wondered about this before. What sorts of escalators were in his contract that haven't been met? 2 TDs per year and he only scored 1? 10 sacks a year?

    A good agent would have gotten Richard escalators like "punched the LT back on his heels and threw him at the quarterback"!!!
  4. OntarioPatsFan

    OntarioPatsFan Rookie

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    Greed? The guy just wants what he's entitled to, being one of the most dominant defensive linemen in the game. I hope Seymour stays in NE, but I'll understand if he moves on for more money, just like Milloy, AV, and Willie Mac.
  5. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He'll have to do it as a Franchised player, there's no way he just walks.
  6. festy1986

    festy1986 Rookie

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    Seymor is the Pats best defensive player, makes the biggest impact concerning all other posistions and thus as a result he should earn more money then the rest.

    If they let Seymor walk over money, and the reason being he isn't worth it. That excuse won't fly around NE no more, trust me without seymor the team becomes less then average.

    But I don't worry bout that, because Seymor will get the money and from the Pats.
  7. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Less then average, eh? That lends itself to the sign superstars and ignore the depth arguments so popular in recent weeks.
  8. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Tough talk from someone who doesn't have to resolve the situation. What if he says $9M a year or Franchise me at $9M. Then he and Brady count for $20M for just two players. I want Seymour as much as anyone but there comes a time to trade and move on. If they can get a mid-late #1 for him in 12 months then which would you rather have, the #1 and $8M or so to spend on other players . . . or Seymour. That money can go a long way. Sure I want Seymour but if he insists on getting the last dollar we may be better off trading him.

    As a few people still don't get it - it's not about money, it's about cap space. Kraft would pay him the money but is $8-$10M for Seymour worth $8-$10M less across the roster especially when you can also trade him (see: John Abraham) and get good picks too.
  9. kolbitr

    kolbitr Rookie

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    Out of curiosity, I compiled a list of other Pro Bowlers from the 2001 draft (I have probably missed some, esp. alternates; e.g., did Reggie Wayne make the PB as an alternate?):

    Alge Crumpler (3x), Casey Hampton (2x), Chad Johnson (3x), Chris Chambers (1x), Deuce McAllister (2x), Drew Brees (1x), Koren Robinson (1x), Kris Jenkins (1x), LaDainian Tomlinson (3x), Marcus Stroud (3x), Michael Vick (3x), Nate Clements (1x), Richard Seymour (4x), Rudi Johnson (1x, as a 4th-rounder), Santana Moss (1x), Steve Smith (2x, as a 3rd-rounder), Travis Henry (1x).

    I have no idea about whether any of these players is still playing under their rookie contracts (obviously, we know some who are not!); Richard Seymour certainly stands out as the only four-time selection (again, unless I have missed an appearance).
  10. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The reason for working so hard on the cap is so that we can afford players like Brady and Seymour for $10M a year each,

  11. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not sure about that. I think Brady is probably the only one. As long as we have Belichick and Brady and can spread the rest of the cap out among the team we'll be fine IMO.
  12. festy1986

    festy1986 Rookie

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    He is worth it, I've seen the results when Seymor isn't on the field and I know I like them a lot more when he is on the field.
  13. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I like Seymour as much as anyone. And you're right, there's a big difference when he's on the field. But if it comes to it and we get a mid #1 for him, use $1.5M or so cap room on the pick and have, say, $6M left that would have gone to Seymour, that #1 pick and $6M would make a big difference on the field too. Perhaps as much, or even more, than Seymour.
  14. smg93

    smg93 Rookie

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    I agree with this. We've often said on this board that the philosophy is to pay the few key members of the team, and then fill it with a strong middle class. If Seymour isn't a key member of the defense, then frankly no one else is in my opinion. I don't think that Brady alone can keep this franchise as one of the top in the league.

    Just see what happened at the beginning of last year when the defense was horrible. We couldn't stop anyone from scoring a bunch of points. We were very fortunate that in the first six games, Brady was able to score more points than half the teams we faced. But .500 is not a record we can strive for and expect to be a playoff contender.

    If the only "untouchable" is Brady, then we better get used to having our defense give up lots of points if #93 leaves and having Tom try to win by scoring more and more points. That is just not going to work in my opinion because defense is the key to championships. We have been very lucky to be able to have Seymour's services these past 5 or so years at a relative discount so that we could bring in people like Colvin and keep players like McGinest and Vinatieri on the payroll without filling the team with minimum salary type veterans who would have had to start games instead of just replacing injured starters. The Pats would have suffered even more if those vets were the ones who got injured and then they too would have had to been replaced by street free agents, rookies, and the like.

    It is now the time and place to pay Seymour like the cornerstone of the defense that he is. 20% of the cap to pay Brady on Offense and Seymour on Defense is reasonable to me because both those guys make everyone else around them play better. Richard is in his mid 20's and will be a star for at least the next five years. Pay him now because the longer we wait, the price just goes up. He has paid his dues. 4 time Pro Bowler still playing in his rookie contract speaks volumes about how valuable he has been to the team. This isn't about sentimentality. It's about what makes sense. You've got two key players in Brady and Seymour signed till the end of the decade and now is the time to find more players from the draft like we've had in the past to come in and become great role players to support our stars. Sign up the guy you have now instead of hoping that this years pick is going to end up like a new #93.
  15. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wow. I went over to NFL.com, to check some info to back up the main point of this post. They have him listed as a DT, not a DE... more fuel for that fire.

    To the point, i.e., escalators. You have to imagine they're based on a lot of stats. The thing with the 2-gap system the Pats play is, there won't be too many sexy numbers coming from a defensive lineman. Now, making it to and winning super bowls and pro bowls, Seymour could and did do, and I'm sure a few dollars were tied to that.

    But sacks? The Pats aren't sack happy. Set the magic number at 6, and Seymour reaches it once, in 2003, with 8. The linebackers do most of the tackling, so for solo tackles, 35's his highest total (to be fair, no lineman gets a huge number of tackles.)

    He must have reached what he could from Pro Bowl and Super Bowl appearances, obviously - and that agent didn't do his homework on what New England does with its down linemen.

    It'll be interesting to see this unfold, once the rules say they can talk again. I could see the logic in a trade, at these kinds of numbers. I could also see the present caution in the FA market as a percursor to redoing that contract with costs loaded somewhat to this year's cap.

    One thought - am I the only one who thinks Roosevelt Colvin has not provided value commensurate to cost? There is the possibility of getting a pick or two for Colvin, paying Seymour what he's worth (by the PatsValuMeterâ„¢,) using some of this season's extra cap space to lessen the blow, and structure future hits on Seymour to really take off starting in 2009, when Brady's start coming back from the stratosphere. So he'd get a nice big signing bonus, a nice roster bonus (this year,) then "tame" salaries in 06-08, (say, 8 mill) and a nice additional chunk of guaranteed money in 09, with salary increasing in 09 through, say, 2012.

    The only problem with this idea is Colvin might blow up and rip the league a new one in 06, and therefore become a problem by being better than thought. But that's a nice problem to have.

    Thoughts?

    PFnV
  16. hwc

    hwc Rookie

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    Seymour isn't hurtin' in the coin department. On the DE franchise tag list (top 10 cap numbers for DE's in 2005), Seymour is listed at #8 in the NFL. I don't think we need to cry the blues for him. He can feed his family.
  17. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    HWC, I take it you're being tongue-in-cheek, what with the Ty Law reference to "feeding his family"?
  18. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sorry, Sey is the best DL in the NFL today, and he is replaceable. That defense that started last season and was horrible featured Seymour. An extension would be welcome, but losing him because he priced himself beyond BB's value board doesn't signal the end of D-line strength for the Patriots. Of course, were that to happen, we'd endure another period of endless whining, avoiding that would almost make it worthwhile to break the budget and return to mediocrity. ;)
  19. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Colvin hasn't provided value? Wow!
  20. shakadave

    shakadave Rookie

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    It's at least possible that you're the only one. Of course we lost "value" while he was injured. But around the middle of this past season, we saw what we paid for --- awesome talent just throwing offenses into disarray. They surely were having to gameplan for Rosie in 2005!
  21. DSal

    DSal Old fart and proud of it!

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    You're absolutely right. Rosie Colvin's play last year meant that we didn't have to over pay Willie this year. While I hate to see Willie in Cleveland, Rosie will transition perfectly.
  22. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I do not know what Seymour's escalaters were, but some may have simply been tied to playing time, and he has missed time in each of the last two seasons. Seymour didn't want to sign that 6 year deal, if you remember he was one of the last 1st rd picks to sign. That is what the Pats were doing, and it was so sucessful, that the Players union, made it a change in the bew CBA, (now rookie contracts can be only 4 or 5 years at the most).

    Seymour is the best Defensive lineman in the NFL, (if you don't believe me ask Tom Brady... He said so at the end of the Jacksonville game, you know the one were Willie had 4.5 sacks). They are going to sign Seymour come August, it is in Seymour's best interest to sign now, he voids the last year of his rookie contract, gets a huge signing bonus and does not have to deal with being franchised for the next two seasons. Because let's face it, he is going to be one of the highest paid DL in the league anyways, if he signs he gets his signing bonus. Hopefully the deal is already done, and the Pats and Seymour are just waiting for August to come around. The key here is to see if Seymour shows up during mini-camp in MAY, if he does and does say boo about a new contract, then I think we can assume the deal is done.
  23. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    With that all said and in the past, what will that mean now and in the near future?? Will he demand way too much for the Patriots to comply?? Will they be able to reach a deal amicably?? Is this rule of no two extensions of a contract within a year a new rule or old?? If old, then obviously both parties knew at that point they could not revisit that till a year was up..why would there be a fuss now?? If it is a new CBA rule, who does that benefit and why is it in there?? Is this going to be a case of Seymour walking away from NE??
  24. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Oops, I forgot to carry the one. Seymour earned 4.25 million in escalators.

    Info about the escalators -
    "The 6-foot-6-inch, 299-pound defensive lineman from Georgia can make another $10 million in escalator clauses, but he would have be a Reggie White -type player to earn that over the life of the contract"
    "Richard Seymour "can earn up to $3.4 million in salary escalators next year and $6.8 million in the final year of the deal based on performance, playing time, playoff appearances, and Pro Bowls. The escalators aren't easy to achieve, even for a player of his caliber."

    " escalators are tied to playing time, playoffs and Pro Bowls. The playing time element could be starts, but it's most likely the percentage of defensive snaps he plays."
  25. Pats726

    Pats726 Rookie

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    Who was his agent??? I would think HE would be one players should keep away from...
  26. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Crumpler, Hampton, Chad, Chambers, McAllister, Jenkins, LT, Stroud, Vick, Rudi Johnson, and Steve Smith have all been extended. Brees, Robinson, Moss, and Henry are on new teams. Clements has been franchised this year.
  27. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am going to answer the only question that I can now. And my answer will not provide any clarity. I do not get why Seymour's agent would agree to this deal. He, IMO, should have made this year a phony year with Seymour having such a huge cap number that the Pats would have deal with Seymour in February/March. As it stands right now, the only leverage Seymour has is to withhold his services.
  28. PatsFanInVa

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    Value Commensurate to Cost?

    I would agree that Brady has higher value to the team than Colvin. This is reflected by Brady being the Patriot with the highest cap number.

    I do not agree that Colvin is more valuable to the team than any player excepting Brady.

    Take a look at Miguel's pages, including the future cap hits page. Colvin's a $5.78M hit this year - more than Richard Seymour, more than Corey Dillon, more than Tedy Bruschi. He was a value commensurate $2.37M in 2005. But every year from now going forward, Colvin becomes an albatross. $6.73M in 2007, $7.63M in 2008, and then another contract to negotiate in 2009.

    Colvin was a long time coming back, during which time he was a rehab project. I love the guy, I really do. But let's see, we're talking (in 2007) in the ballpark of 9 million for Sey, 7 million for Colvin, and 11 million for Brady for a grand total of [fanfare] 27 million dollars for three players.

    At the very least, Colvin's got to re-do his deal, unless we're saying his value is among the team's top three playmakers. I place him more in the large middle class whence he came, and for which New England is famous.

    PFnV
  29. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here's the problem with franchising Seymour. The Pats will not control where Seymour goes. If a good team like the Steelers, Dolphins, Jets, Bengals, or Chargers decides that signing Seymour is worth giving up a late 1st round pick in two consecutive years, then all Seymour has to is sign their tender offer and he will within a week become a member of that team. So the Pats will have gotten worse in several spots on their DL chart and Seymour's new team will have gotten better in several spots on their DL chart.

    Let's say that the Pats intend to trade Seymour to a NFC team. They can not force Seymour to sign a tender offer from a NFC team.
  30. aabtec

    aabtec Rookie

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    He has earned it..remember its a business.

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