No Proof that PATs Cheated

[CheerforTom]

i think u r misunderstanding where i am coming from, i don't think they cheated to gain a competitive advantage in that particular game, but they broke a rule in order to film the jets coordinators, and this film was likely going to be used for future game planning giving the pats an unfair competitive advantage against the jets simply because the means by which they obtained the tape were against the rules.

And that's just the point, man! You think that, you're guessing that, but there's no proof at all. If you want to believe our team cheated go right ahead, but I'm waiting for proof.

well, from what I understand the cameraman got caught as he was trying to get to the locker room to deliver the tape. My assumption is that if the pats got the tape, they would have used it. If I'm wrong on this assumption, then I'm wrong, so be it. Its not costing me anything.

It goes without saying that they were going to OBTAIN the tape: the important thing is what they were going to do with it. Can anyone, anywhere, besides BB say for sure what that was?

 

[Patstopia]

i think u r misunderstanding where i am coming from, i don't think they cheated to gain a competitive advantage in that particular game, but they broke a rule in order to film the jets coordinators, and this film was likely going to be used for future game planning giving the pats an unfair competitive advantage against the jets simply because the means by which they obtained the tape were against the rules.

So you think the Jets would keep the same signals every week? Well it is the Jets, but that isn't going to happen. Signals get changed every game, sometimes every half. Nobody uses the same signals all season.

 

[Nitro]

I dont look at it as cheating. Its nothing more then having a cameraman in the wrong place. Estrella was getting video of something even the fans could sit in the stands and see. Technology made it easier then using the old fasioned method of having someone take notes. BB should have stuck with someone taking notes.

It was a panic move by mangini, maybe hoping to mindf**k BB during the game that turned into a witchhunt by a few teams that saw this as an opportunity to get a win against NE off the field because their teams cant manage to do it on the field that then got the fans of all the teams that have been getting owned by NE to stand at attention and say "We didnt lose to the patriots, they use video to try to determine what the signals are instead of the old method of assigning someone to take notes, then hitch them up to the game video. We deserve one of their draft picks!!!"

And ya know what else *if* there is a coach or 2 that isnt trying to figure out the signals (video or taking notes), I wouldnt want him running a team I root for. Gotta go the extra mile otherwise you are herm edwards.

 

[emoney_33]

the key here is to use reason and consider circumstance, i don't look at this and say hmm the pats were filming the jets coordinators to get fashion tips, i conclude that they were breaking a rule in order to learn or identify jets signals. they may or may not have gotten the chance to use the tape but thats besides the point, it is crucial to look at their intentions. would they have used the tape to gain some sort of competitive advantage had they not been caught? i assume so.

Read the post above you...


YOU conclude they were trying to identify jets signals.
YOU ASSUME they would use the tape that game.
YOU cannot detail how the hell they would do that.

BB is a genius and all but he isn't superhuman, he doesn't have the CIA working for him and he has a ton of other things to think about. No team can do what you suggest the pats wanted to do. You are trying to simplify a complicated process to fit what you perceive is the intent.

The video had no live feed, it wasn't a high tech video camera.

They would NOT have been able to go through 40 or so signals from the video, sync it with plays on the field, study the defensive play to know what everyone was doing, compile that information in 15 minutes. AND they would not have been able to then watch the 3 defensive signals being sent in, identify which of the 40 it was from, and then hand signal the QB as to what play is coming or hand signal a new play in the span of 15 seconds from when the defense sends the signal to when the play clock expires.


You assume and conclude based on fantasy, the logistics do not back up your flawed logic.

 

[JR4]

JR, to quote the theme song of a television show that was probably off the air before you were born, "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

We broke the damn rules. We cheated. Nobody gives a fiddler's flatulence what you think cheating is. America's pretty convinced that breaking the rules to try to get an unfair advantage is cheating.

We did it, presumeably other teams did not. I am speaking specifically about using videotape to steal signals, instead of other means.

We had access to this method, others did not. They did not, because they did not break that rule. That's cheating.

I don't GET how people need to make it allllll go away. It won't. You can't make it go away by wishing or getting into labyrinthine definitional debates. We cheated, we got busted, we paid the price, we are moving on.

Now, you can say it had a minor impact, if any. You can say it was one of 10,000 things Belichik does to get that edge, with the other 9,999 of them being legal. I've said all these things.

But you can't just randomly say "we didn't cheat because I don't like how that sounds." All you can do is move on.

PFnV

Well is seems you agree with ESPN and NFL Network and tons of other
gurus that simply breaking a rule means you cheated.
These guys are on a very deliberate mind conditioning agenda.
It seems you maybe one of their victims. It's your opinion.

To me and others you need to PROVE PATs got some advantage in a game,
any game ... by breaking that rule.
There are many rules in the NFL. Breaking a rule doesn't mean the offender
cheated.
An advantage from breaking a rule has to be proven NOT just ASSUMED.

 

[emoney_33]

i think u r misunderstanding where i am coming from, i don't think they cheated to gain a competitive advantage in that particular game, but they broke a rule in order to film the jets coordinators, and this film was likely going to be used for future game planning giving the pats an unfair competitive advantage against the jets simply because the means by which they obtained the tape were against the rules.

I'd agree with this statement, and thus conclude the punishment doesnt fit the crime

 

[pats_ftw!!1!]

And that's just the point, man! You think that, you're guessing that, but there's no proof at all. If you want to believe our team cheated go right ahead, but I'm waiting for proof.

ok i see where u r coming from, and i agree but the circumstantial evidence seems to be overwhelming, i don't know what else they would use the tape for

So you think the Jets would keep the same signals every week? Well it is the Jets, but that isn't going to happen. Signals get changed every game, sometimes every half. Nobody uses the same signals all season.

haha i wouldn't put it past the jets...but too stay on par with some of the ridiculous comparisons in this thread (i don't know if u r blaming the jets in any way but if u r) that is similar to blaming a rape victim for getting raped for dressing promiscuously.

 

[Patstopia]

I'd agree with this statement, and thus conclude the punishment doesnt fit the crime

Just for the record, this was not my post. One of my quotes went crazy!

 

[Sunqueen212]

the key here is to use reason and consider circumstance, i don't look at this and say hmm the pats were filming the jets coordinators to get fashion tips, i conclude that they were breaking a rule in order to learn or identify jets signals.

Probably.

they may or may not have gotten the chance to use the tape but thats besides the point, it is crucial to look at their intentions. would they have used the tape to gain some sort of competitive advantage had they not been caught? i assume so.

And you know what they say about someone who assumes. Do you have proof that the videotapes were used to gain an unfair advantage DURING THE GAME or are you speculating?

 

[CheerforTom]

ok i see where u r coming from, and i agree but the circumstantial evidence seems to be overwhelming, i don't know what else they would use the tape for

And that's fair, it really is. My only response to that is that there HAVE been a few suggested things that the tapes could have been used for, ranging from fairly reasonable to kind of crazy. Just today Bill Simmons suggested that BB could have suspected Mangini of some sort of foul play and wanted a record of it for himself.

The bottom line is that it's not up to us to prove ourselves innocent. That just isn't fair. It's true that it would seem like the most likely case is that BB was going to use the tapes to steal signals given the information we have, but that doesn't make it true.

Try to understand that I'm not in denial about our team cheating. Is it likely that they did? Sure. But I refuse to call the Patriots or BB or WHOEVER a cheater until I see some solid evidence, and everyone should have that attitude as well.

 

[Sunqueen212]

ok i see where u r coming from, and i agree but the circumstantial evidence seems to be overwhelming, i don't know what else they would use the tape for

haha i wouldn't put it past the jets...but too stay on par with some of the ridiculous comparisons in this thread (i don't know if u r blaming the jets in any way but if u r) that is similar to blaming a rape victim for getting raped for dressing promiscuously.

Again, BB has a libray of tapes on opposing defenses. He studies tape for a living. He lives and breathes this stuff. He is a genius. Geniuses have odd habits sometimes. I suppose BB was arrogant enough to think he could put a cameraman on the sidelines to illegally tape the opponent and get away with it. Did he break the rules? Yes. Do we have proof that the tapes were used during the current game and not as an addition to his library to be used for later study? WE DON'T KNOW, but speculating about it gets us nowhere.

 

[Patstopia]

What Im saying is the facts are these.

The Pats filmed the defensive signal calling. (hence the punishment)
The Pats never saw the film during the game.
Knowing the signals is not against the rule, filming is.
You can get the signals without filming, by using binoulars legally!
The film was used to look for tendancies of the defensive coaches.
The signals change week to week, so you cannot know the signals for your next matchup.
The signals may change half to half.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Right there you equate breaking the rules with cheating. JR's contending that they're not the same thing, and I agree with him. There's no arguing we broke the rules, we definitely did. But to call us cheaters connotates something completely different.

Your only argument seems to be that everyone else thinks we're cheaters, and you'll excuse me if I don't accept that.

Okay, we break the rules WHY exactly? As one other poster suggests, to get fashion tips? It looks pretty much open and shut -- you tape the other team's D. coaches. You pan up to the score board and tape down and distance. you tape the play. Rinse, repeat.

What is wrong with you guys? You're like ostriches putting your heads in the sand. It is really obvious that one day, this looks like savvy advance work, a way to compile a library that's useful to get other team's "tendencies" at the coaching level, while getting a possible edge based on the vocabulary of symbols. The next day, the league tightens up. Lo and behold, you've been pissing people off back when the league was loose about the same practice. If "everybody knows" you won't get busted for drinking a few beers then driving, and then they toughen up enforcement the next day, it doesn't make your drunk driving okay. Making that claim in front of a judge might, however, prompt the question "how often do you drive drunk anyway?"

I'm not going to go off into the realm of guesswork here, which you evidently believe is necessary to determine whether breaking the rules is cheating. It is obviously cheating. You're trying to require such guesswork to set the bar of evidence high enough that it can never be proven. You redefine "cheating" to suit your agenda. Require knowledge of the private state of another's thoughts. Require knowledge of the non-public details of the team's operations. Poof, problem gone.

By the same argument, I can say Barry Bonds merely intended to look better in the mirror, not provide a boost to his power hitting stats. Based on my private knowledge of Barry Bonds' personal state of mind -- which you have done nothing to disprove -- I can establish beyond a reasonable doubt that his use of steroids was not cheating. Reasonable to me, that is.

WAKE UP. This is a monumental "DO'H" moment, not some moot court exercise. We did it, we got busted, we took the fine. Now they're going to be dragging out more crap about the radio frequencies, etc. etc. etc. You're going to need to toughen up over the course of the season.

I know and you know that the cameragate thing was thrown in with a lot of little things the Pats do that are perfectly legal, that make the Pats typically better than other teams. Our Pats need to stop throwing these little things in. I'm hoping this incident does it, because of the consequences to the Pats, not because I think this is a huge deal based on the actual impact of the practice.

But it does absolutely no good to run around in some delusional world where it never happened, or just "wasn't what it looked like."

Rules are written without regard to moral content, so you can judge behavior by behavior rather than intent. But the intent is why the rule is written. So the rule says you just can't tape the signal. The reason for the rule is that you will gain an unfair advantage if you do. Breaking the rule is cheating by definition, unless you want to bring a confessional or perhaps lie detectors or CIA interrogators into play.

PFnV

 

[pats_ftw!!1!]

ok i see where u r coming from, and i agree but the circumstantial evidence seems to be overwhelming, i don't know what else they would use the tape for



Again, BB has a libray of tapes on opposing defenses. He studies tape for a living. He lives and breathes this stuff. He is a genius. Geniuses have odd habits sometimes. I suppose BB was arrogant enough to think he could put a cameraman on the sidelines to illegally tape the opponent and get away with it. Did he break the rules? Yes. Do we have proof that the tapes were used during the current game and not as an addition to his library to be used for later study? WE DON'T KNOW, but speculating about it gets us nowhere.

i construe the actual filming as cheating or as you may consider it a "precursor" to the cheating that was to come by viewing the tape, simply since no other team is allowed to film at that angle, therefore if belichick and the pats are the only ones doing it they have an illegal competitive advantage ( this is assuming they would use the tape to gameplan in the future)

 

[emoney_33]

What Im saying is the facts are these.

The Pats filmed the defensive signal calling. (hence the punishment)

Punishment is NOT for filming the defensive signal calling, it's for a video camera used on the field, doesn't matter what is being taped.

The Pats never saw the film during the game.

correct

Knowing the signals is not against the rule, filming is.

Filming on the field is, doesn't matter what is being filmed.

You can get the signals without filming, by using binoulars legally!
The film was used to look for tendancies of the defensive coaches.
The signals change week to week, so you cannot know the signals for your next matchup.
The signals may change half to half.

yup yup yup yup

 

[pats_ftw!!1!]

Okay, we break the rules WHY exactly? As one other poster suggests, to get fashion tips? It looks pretty much open and shut -- you tape the other team's D. coaches. You pan up to the score board and tape down and distance. you tape the play. Rinse, repeat.

What is wrong with you guys? You're like ostriches putting your heads in the sand. It is really obvious that one day, this looks like savvy advance work, a way to compile a library that's useful to get other team's "tendencies" at the coaching level, while getting a possible edge based on the vocabulary of symbols.

I'm not going to go off into the realm of guesswork here, which you evidently believe is necessary to determine whether breaking the rules is cheating. It is obviously cheating. You're trying to set a bar high enough to prove the case that the case can't be proved, poof, problem gone.

By the same argument, I can say Barry Bonds merely intended to look better in the mirror, not provide a boost to his power hitting stats. Based on my private knowledge of Barry Bonds' personal state of mind -- which you have done nothing to disprove -- I can establish beyond a reasonable doubt that his use of steroids was not cheating. Reasonable to me, that is.

WAKE UP people. This is a monumental "DO'H" moment. We did it, we got busted, we took the fine. Now they're going to be dragging out more crap about the radio frequencies, etc. etc. etc.

Toughen up, people.

I know and you know the cameragate thing was thrown in with a lot of little things the Pats do that are perfectly legal, that make them better than the other team. They need to stop throwing these little things in. I'm hoping this incident does it, because of the consequences to us, not because I think this is a huge deal based on the actual impact of the practice.

But it does absolutely no good to run around in some delusional world where it never happened, or just "wasn't what it looked like."

Rules are written without regard to moral content, so you can judge behavior by behavior rather than intent. But the intent is why the rule is written. So the rule says you just can't tape the signal. The reason for the rule is that you will gain an unfair advantage if you do. Breaking the rule is cheating by definition, unless you want to bring a confessional or perhaps lie detectors into play.

PFnV

qft /thread

 

[NEPat]

Good post PatsFaninVa.

WAKE UP people. This is a monumental "DO'H" moment. We did it, we got busted, we took the fine. Now they're going to be dragging out more crap about the radio frequencies, etc. etc. etc.

At least we know that so far, the players are somehow using this as an "us against the world" motivation. As long as the players are OK and the team is winning, my hope is whatever further stuff comes out won't affect the team more than all this already has.

 

[Sunqueen212]

i construe the actual filming as cheating or as you may consider it a "precursor" to the cheating that was to come by viewing the tape, simply since no other team is allowed to film at that angle, therefore if belichick and the pats are the only ones doing it they have an illegal competitive advantage ( this is assuming they would use the tape to gameplan in the future)

At what angle? How many angles do you need to get the signals of the defensive coach? You're grasping at straws here.

 

[emoney_33]

PFnV... but it seems you still are saying that taping defensive signals breaks a rule, it doesn't by itself. Like going 40 doesn't break any rules on the highway but it does in a school zone.

I understand your point though. The rule was made for a reason in the minds of the rule makers. No matter how illogical using that tape during the game is, it still breaks the rule. Just like no matter how illogical that stop sign is in the middle of nowhere, if I don't stop I am still breaking the law. We broke the rule, we paid (extra so the entire league could get a message sent), and now let's move on. Moving along...

 

[pats_ftw!!1!]

At what angle? How many angles do you need to get the signals of the defensive coach? You're grasping at straws here.

so what is the purpose of the rule? its in place for a reason