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No Proof that PATs Cheated

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JR4, Sep 17, 2007.

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  1. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First need a good definition of cheating as proclaimed in recent news reports about the PATs.

    In recent context it means the QB received reliable information,
    not a guess, of what the opponent's defense was going to do.
    That reliable information was obtained by some method not legally allowed
    by the rules of the game.

    Need to agree on grounds for cheating or can't go any further.
    If someone has a better definition I'd like to hear it.

    Assuming the above definition is Ok.


    The key is getting reliable information of what the opponent's defense was going to do to the QB.
    If such reliable information was ONLY obtained by an illegal method but never
    made it to the QB then you have a rule violation but no cheating.

    So did the Patriots cheat?
    Did their QB get reliable information about what their opponents defense
    was going to do using illegal methods.


    I believe there is ABSOLUETLY No Proof of Cheating.


    IF I am wrong about this Please somebody let me know.


    No proof has ever been given that Patriots ever cheated.
    They broke a rule. Yes but

    Breaking a rule is Not same as Cheating.

    1. A camera was illegally used to record information - Verified

    2. Reliable information of what a defense was going
    to do was derived from step 1. ... NO PROOF

    3. The information from step 2 was communicated to the QB .... No PROOF

    Conclusion: There is NO PROOF that PATs cheated.


    Not only was there No proof for the JETs game but No proof for any game
    PATs have ever played.

    ALL these accusations of PATs cheating have been based on ASSUMPTION not PROOF!
     
  2. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    #24 Jersey

    if you want to talk definitions than its not good.

    cheat (chēt) Pronunciation Key
    v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats

    v. tr.

    To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
    To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
    To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
    To elude; escape: cheat death.

    v. intr.

    To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
    To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
    Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.
    Baseball To position oneself closer to a certain area than is normal or expected: The shortstop cheated toward second base. or in football to use a camera to steal signals
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2007
  3. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You have your own definition of a media term that is not defined by the NFL.

    Also, we have not seen anywhere near all the evidence. And just, BTW, using the camera during the game to get an idea as to Mangini's tendencies is absurd on its face. The team could have hired people to tape games in which we were not involved. Certainly decoding signals, hoping that this will help us in December is really reaching. Mangini had learned from Belichick. The code changes often.

     
  4. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    the camera was in plain sight. There was no deception, deprivation,
    misleading or eluding done by the camera man. The Camera man
    broke a rule.

    " To violate rules deliberately, as in a game as accused of cheating at cards."
    the implication is an unfair advantage was rendered "in a game".

    the definition given in our context includes the concepts you gave from
    dictionary .
     
  5. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Cool, so technically, play action passes, screens, trick plays etc.. are all cases of cheating. SAWEEEET
     
  6. pats_ftw!!1!

    pats_ftw!!1! Rookie

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    we broke the rules
     
  7. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    EXACTLY RIGHT! they use that word but never establish that it has happened or ever happened.
    They no PROOF that Brady ever got useful information because PATs
    broke a rule .... they just ASSUME he did and then conclude PATS cheated.
     
  8. Danny Boy®

    Danny Boy® Banned

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    Well....considering that Krafty and BB are paying $750k and losing a number 1 pick...I think you may be a bit off.
     
  9. patpatriot

    patpatriot Banned

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    JR, give it up. This ain't about truth. This is about burning witches.
     
  10. Redcell

    Redcell Practice Squad Player

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    Amen to that. Don't forget that perception is reality.
     
  11. pats_ftw!!1!

    pats_ftw!!1! Rookie

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    honestly, im sure you love the pats and all, but how do you not see a correlation between breaking the rules in this fashion and cheating? now im not saying it is as big of deal as the media is making it out to be, but it is still cheating.
     
  12. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This fact does not mean they cheated. Have you seen convincing proof
    Brady ever got useful information from PATs breaking a rule.

    They got hit so very hard for breaking rule. The Comish even said
    that what they did no way affected the outcome of the game.
    This means Brady did not get any useful information. The fine
    are for breaking the rule ... not for cheating.
     
  13. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Most pat fans continue to be in denial. Robert Kraft isn't.

     
  14. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Sorry but that is like saying purchasing a gun is murder... No we didn't cheat, thanks
     
  15. CheerforTom

    CheerforTom Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    You are right, for the record. Jaws was just on MNF going on about how much of an advantage it is when the quarterback knows what the defense is going to do, and even gave an example from when he was playing.

    It's incredibly misleading of him because, like you say JR, there's no proof whatsoever that the Patriots have done anything resembling that. What there IS proof of is that we taped the sidelines, nothing more. All these accusations of cheating are not backed up by anything besides sensationalism and bitterness towards New England. That doesn't acquit us of anything, but it sure as hell doesn't convict us either. I've wondered more than once through all of this where 'innocent until proven guilty' has been.

    The media has been incredibly unfair and deceitful about cameragate, and I for one just can't wait for it to end. The only ones sticking up for the Patriots either come off as radicals or homers. We DID break the rules, there is absolutely no denying that... but there's absolutely no denying that we were punished (heavily, in context) for it, thus making that fact irrelevant.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2007
  16. Sundayjack

    Sundayjack On the Game Day Roster

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    So, your issue is more with parlance. Okay, I can buy that. Words have currency. And, if your point has any merit, the Commissioner should spend some time defining terms for everyone.

    But, this goes back to a point I made earlier this morning about Patriots damage control. Don't get me wrong, I love the story, because I'm on the other side and I enjoy the drama. Putting on my objective hat, though, both the Patriots and the Commissioner have a problem - they're letting anyone with a typewriter or a microphone define the story with conjecture. NO ONE has told the true extent of the story. So, given the license to guess, people are running with it. Wiretapping. Frequency jamming. Video feeds. Hand signals. Wired linebackers. Eavesdropping. Rifling through dressing room trash. Talking heads and C-student sports scribes are going NUTS with this story because the Patriots and the Commissioner's Office are letting them.

    Your problem isn't defining terms. It's much much worse than that.
     
  17. emoney_33

    emoney_33 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Kraft has to think about PR, and the patriots image. We do not. It doesn't matter if Kraft is 100% sure that nothing went wrong, it is how the masses perceive it. He's a businessman, we are fans.
     
  18. Metaphors

    Metaphors In the Starting Line-Up

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    Assuming you were zooming in on this definition. The problem with this definition is that a video camera restriction is not a "rule of the game", but a policy around which the game is administered. You can remove the policy and the game is played by the exact same rules. Belichick didn't follow a policy he didn't believe in (civil disobedience) rather than accept a rule as being valid and choose to "violate" it (with a presumption of trying to "get away with something").

    It is all words parsing, but I think the key point is that Belichick is neither evil or stupid. His method of protest didn't yield the result he wanted, but there was a method to his madness.

    As an aside, in that Nike commercial with Merriman and Stephen Jackson...WTF is that Steeler defensive lineman (#93) doing at the end? Hey I'm not saying, I'm just saying... If I were Nick Eason, I'd be pissed.
     
  19. 420jim

    420jim On the Game Day Roster

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    I'm not in denial, the patriots ATTEMPTED to cheat. However the tape was taken before they had a chance to use it. Just like in highschool, if you made a cheat sheet for the test but had it taken away before hand and still passed the test, you didn't cheat, you ATTEMPTED to cheat
     
  20. Danny Boy®

    Danny Boy® Banned

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    So if a guy robs a bank but doesnt spend the money, hes innocent?

    Pats got caught cheating.
     
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