Marquise Hill

[DaBruinz]

It wasn't that he couldn't get PT in front of those guys. It's that if you watched pre-season, he gave up on plays. NO persuit. PLUS, not only could he not get PT, he could not make the game day roster - that is not until the last game of the season against Miami when BB had every scrub play.

Bust.

PWP -
OR it could just be that there were other priorities that BB felt were more important than carrying a 4th DE during a game. All you have to do is look at the number of DBs we carried each game to understand that.

Sorry, but to be ignorant and call Hill a bust when you have 3 guys in front of him in Warren, Seymour and Green and have the issues the Pats had on defense at LB and the secondary shows a lack of understanding for how the game day rosters get put together and how injuries affect the roster.

 

[DaBruinz]

I think it said a lot that Mike Wright, an undrafted FA, was active all year and got playing time while Hill wasn't active hardly all year. It's true Wright could play inside and Hill has 3 DE's ahead of him. But even in limited playing time Hill has shown just about nothing yet.

Wright plays the NT position. Hill plays the 3-4 DE position. The Pats have no real back-up to the NT position. The Pats have Jarvis Green, a player who would be starting on any other 3-4 defense, as their primary reserve. Yeah, Wright being active and Hill not being active sure says alot. NOT. All it says is that Belichick wanted a reserve NT and that having a 4th DE wasn't as much of a priority as having 5 safeties and 5 DBs as well as 9 LBs.

That's all it says.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ridiculous.
BJ has played in many games and scored TDs both on special teams and as a WR. Remember the Titans? While BJ, a 2nd round pick may well ALSO be a bust he's contributed far more and played far more minutes than #2 pick Hill who cannot even make the game day roster while as Steve points out Wright can.

This is a produce or be cut season for both players. BJ has it slightly easier because of the present paucity of young experienced bodies at WR.

What is ridiculous is people like yourself, PWP, who insist on trying to compare players who play 2 different positions.

1) PatsSteve is 100% WRONG in trying to compare Wright to Hill. Wrtight makes the game day roster because he is the back-up NT. Hill doesn't make the game-day roster because he is the #4 DE and its clear to anyone who thinks about the composition of the game day rosters last year that BB thought it was more important to have 10 DBs and 9 LBs than it was to have 6 d-line dressed.

2) Trying to compare Johnson to Hill is just as stupid as the game plan requirements are totally different. People think that Bethel is a bust because, as a second round pick, he should have been contributing regularly in the passing game and not just on special teams where he has gone from being good to being mediocre.

 

[DaBruinz]

Why can't Hill play NT? He is strong as a bull but doesn't have that much speed, you don't need that much at NT, although Wilfork is pretty quick.

What is funny about this is that I had a huge argument on the ESPN message board where I said I believe that Hill would be drafted as a NT by the Pats. I was ridiculed by many there, including a guy by the name of Edwardshopeful.

With Hill's size (6'6) I felt that he could put on the 20-30 lbs he'd need to be just as effective at NT as Ted Washington was.

However, the Pats haven't used Hill in that way, to my knowledge. What I find interesting is that Hill was actually lining up on the end of the goal-line defense. I wonder if they could be asking hill to SLIM DOWN and potentially moving him outside.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

What is ridiculous is people like yourself, PWP, who insist on trying to compare players who play 2 different positions.

Read the thread more discerningly. I was RESPONDING to a comparison which I did not initiate and provided objectly verifyable data in an attempt to refute the statement.

1) PatsSteve is 100% WRONG in trying to compare Wright to Hill. Wrtight makes the game day roster because he is the back-up NT. Hill doesn't make the game-day roster because he is the #4 DE and its clear to anyone who thinks about the composition of the game day rosters last year that BB thought it was more important to have 10 DBs and 9 LBs than it was to have 6 d-line dressed.

2) Trying to compare Johnson to Hill is just as stupid as the game plan requirements are totally different. People think that Bethel is a bust because, as a second round pick, he should have been contributing regularly in the passing game and not just on special teams where he has gone from being good to being mediocre.

You do know that Bethel HAS played as a WR FAR more plays than Hill has played.

Once again, WATCH Hill in pre-season. In pre-season games last year he (a) took plays off and (2) failed to persue the ballcarrier. If he performs differently THIS summer as a result of some kind of character/attitude adjustment, he'll be on the 53.

I go to training camp. Mrs B, I and others will keep folks in the loop about who is and is not performing.

 

[DaBruinz]

Read the thread more discerningly. I was RESPONDING to a comparison which I did not initiate and provided objectly verifyable data in an attempt to refute the statement.

I suggest YOU read the thread more discerningly, PWP. Especially since I had already pointed out that PatsSteve1 was incorrect in his comparison. Since you decided to parrot him with a comparison with Bethel, that lumps you in with him. And, if you had actually bothered to read what I replied to in your post, You would understand that the data you provided was in an attempt to SUPPORT PatsSteve1 erroneous statement.

You do know that Bethel HAS played as a WR FAR more plays than Hill has played.

SO WHAT? That has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING. The fact of the matter is that BETHEL plays entirely different positions than Hill. Its pure ignorance to say that you can compare the two. They are entirely different situations. And, if you actually had an open mind and weren't so quick to close your mind off to other VERIFYABLE FACTS, you might actually understand the situation. Like the FACT that Hill was #4 on the DE depth chart. Like the FACT that the Pats carried at combined total of 19 DBs and LB on their gameday roster, shorting themselves on the D-line because they felt they needed the extra bodies in the secondary.

As someone else pointed out. Who would you have benched last year to give Hill playing time? Green? Seymour? Vrabel? Davis? Izzo? Sanders? Poteat? Hochstein? How about you actually stop and THINK outside the little box you've confined yourself to on this subject?

Once again, WATCH Hill in pre-season. In pre-season games last year he (a) took plays off and (2) failed to persue the ballcarrier. If he performs differently THIS summer as a result of some kind of character/attitude adjustment, he'll be on the 53.

I did watch Hill in pre-season. 1) Its your opinion that he took plays off. 2) Its your opinion that he failed to PURSUE the ball carrier. I've seen Seymour NOT pursue the ball carrier when he's beyond the LOS on the opposite side of the field. I've seen Wilfork and Warren do the same things. What is your VERIFYABLE PROOF that Hill took plays off?

I go to training camp. Mrs B, I and others will keep folks in the loop about who is and is not performing.

I don't care if you go to training camp. You haven't shown you have an unbiased opinion on the situation with your incessant need to ignore salient facts.

 

[PATSNUTme]

Looks like this thread has turned into a farting contest.

 

[PatsSteve1]

The only reason for that was Wright played on special teams, Hill did not..Hill was also injured early in the year..quite under the radar..so??? Bust..too early for that..this year progress is a must..and that could make the D line even stronger!!.

* Wright didn't just play ST's. He played in the reg D, too. Not in a regular rotation, but he got in many more D plays than Hill has in 2 years. Wright had more tackles, 4 against Miami last year than Hill has in his nfl career.

 

[GoWhalers]

Lot of brush fires starting in this thread...

I'll just say this -- there was no indication at any point last season that Hill was in any way pushing Jarvis Green for playing time, which was disappointing.

Granted, he's young, and a project, and plays behind a talented group of starters. Still, the only metric I would use to gauge his success/improvement is him competing with Green for a spot on the active roster.

 

[PatsSteve1]

We have Seymour, Wilfork, Warren, and Green. Most of the time we play 3-4, with Green coming off the bench. On 3rd and long, you probably take out Wilfork and put in Green. On other downs you keep in Wilfork in and sub Green in for Warren. Seymour plays all downs. So to people who are complaining: who would you take out in order to give Hill playing time?[/QUOTE]

And those 4 are all signed thru 2008 so unless there's an injury, Hill may never play. It's really up ti him to make the coaches play him more.

 

[PatsSteve1]

Wright plays the NT position. Hill plays the 3-4 DE position. The Pats have no real back-up to the NT position. The Pats have Jarvis Green, a player who would be starting on any other 3-4 defense, as their primary reserve. Yeah, Wright being active and Hill not being active sure says alot. NOT. All it says is that Belichick wanted a reserve NT and that having a 4th DE wasn't as much of a priority as having 5 safeties and 5 DBs as well as 9 LBs.

* That's what I said. Wright plays inside and Hill doesn't.
It's up to Hill to show he deserves playing time. When Seymour was signed he didn't start right away because someone was in front of him. Virtually every player faces that situation when he comes in as a draft pick. The guy at that position the previous year is in front of teh draft pick until the DP shows he can play. Hill has shown nothing.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I suggest YOU read the thread more discerningly, PWP. Especially since I had already pointed out that PatsSteve1 was incorrect in his comparison. Since you decided to parrot him with a comparison with Bethel, that lumps you in with him. And, if you had actually bothered to read what I replied to in your post, You would understand that the data you provided was in an attempt to SUPPORT PatsSteve1 erroneous statement.

* i said n that post that Wright played inside and Hill didn't. The only thing I was saying was playing time. If they thought nothing of Wright, they could have activated Hill and used Seymour or Green, who have both played there, as a backup NT. They didn't. They kept Wright active instead. Even Warren played NT in college.

 

[Julius]

Granted, he's young, and a project, and plays behind a talented group of starters. Still, the only metric I would use to gauge his success/improvement is him competing with Green for a spot on the active roster.[/QUOTE=PatsSteve1]

I don't see Hill competing with Green for playing time or a roster spot because Green is our best pash rushing linemen and Hill at best is a solid run stopper. Baring injury I just can't see Hill playing much unless he was moved to nose tackle.

 

[patsfaninpa]

Marquise Hill = Be leery of drafting young, underclassmen.

Someone pointed out that we should wait until training camp to
call him a bust. I agree. But, I would also say that I've seen nothing
to indicate he can play in the NFL. I do watch him. And, when he was
in he couldn't get off his blocker and upfield at all. We'll know by Sept.
whether he can play or not.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

[/b]I suggest YOU read the thread more discerningly, PWP. Especially since I had already pointed out that PatsSteve1 was incorrect in his comparison. Since you decided to parrot him with a comparison with Bethel, that lumps you in with him. And, if you had actually bothered to read what I replied to in your post, You would understand that the data you provided was in an attempt to SUPPORT PatsSteve1 erroneous statement.

I concede that you are an expert in being wrong.
Read again S..L..O..W..L..Y. You're mixing up posts.
It was not I and not steve1 but TerryGlennIsACowgirl that 1st made the comparison (see post #21) and to whom I initially responded (post #27). When I first discussed BJ, I was responding to TGIAC. Then somehow you got 'confused' and are too stubborn to admit it, ranting on and on.

SO WHAT? That has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING. The fact of the matter is that BETHEL plays entirely different positions than Hill.

No! You don't say!
Both steve1 (who is quite capable of explaining himself) and I were simply citing comparitive playing time in RESPONSE to the comparison initiated by another. Steve1 did bring up Mike Wright, who (OMG!) plays a DIFFERENT position on the DL than Hill. Whoa! Nobody knew that!

Its pure ignorance to say that you can compare the two. They are entirely different situations. And, if you actually had an open mind and weren't so quick to close your mind off to other VERIFYABLE FACTS, you might actually understand the situation. Like the FACT that Hill was #4 on the DE depth chart. Like the FACT that the Pats carried at combined total of 19 DBs and LB on their gameday roster, shorting themselves on the D-line because they felt they needed the extra bodies in the secondary.

As someone else pointed out. Who would you have benched last year to give Hill playing time? Green? Seymour? Vrabel? Davis? Izzo? Sanders? Poteat? Hochstein? How about you actually stop and THINK outside the little box you've confined yourself to on this subject?

ROTFL! You just did it. You 'compared' Hill to players at different positions, an egregious offense in your opinion.
Perhaps now you can see the silliness of your rant.
Somehow, I doubt it.

I did watch Hill in pre-season. 1) Its your opinion that he took plays off. 2) Its your opinion that he failed to PURSUE the ball carrier. I've seen Seymour NOT pursue the ball carrier when he's beyond the LOS on the opposite side of the field. I've seen Wilfork and Warren do the same things. What is your VERIFYABLE PROOF that Hill took plays off?

OK, I'll shoot you some game films I just happen to have stored on my PC.

I don't care if you go to training camp. You haven't shown you have an unbiased opinion on the situation with your incessant need to ignore salient facts.

Cite one a them salient facts for me.
In summary, in response to a post by another poster likening the 2 players as busts, I stated that so far BJ, whom I'm NOT high on, has contributed much more than Hill, whom I project as a BUST based upon no contribution for 2 years as a round 2 pick.

Hopefully, NEM will be right for the 1st time.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

This whole argument IMO is being based on his draft position. Every team picks up late round picks or undrafted free agents and makes projects out of them. If they pan out, you've got a steal. If they don't, oh well. No one talks about them as busts. Hill is a project just like any other project. He was drafted high because of his talent and his potential. However, a project needs time just like anyone else, no matter how high or low he's taken.

If he shows nothing after this season, then it's definately time to call it quits. It's still too early yet to label him anything. I did some research and found three other guys that were "busts" after their first two seasons.

The first was an undrafted DE. He spent his rookie year on IR recovering from a college knee injury. He was active for only 7 games in a reserve role in his 2nd season, a healthy inactive the rest. He totaled 3 tackles and 0.5 sacks. I'm talking about Adewale Ogunleye of the Bears.

Next was a 5th round pick after playing a couple seasons in Canada. Played in only 17 total games his first two seasons as a reserve WR and special teamer. Had just 2 catches in each of his first two seasons. This would be Joe Horn.

The last one is my favorite. He was a RB drafted in the 4th round. (that's definately high enough in the draft to want or expect at least decent production early on) Spent first 14 weeks of rookie season as a healthy inactive, only returning 4 kicks in the final two games of the season after being activated. Played in only 7 games in year 2, with most of those being because of an injury to a RB in front of him. Totaled 17 carries for 67 yards. This person is none other than Rudi Johnson of the Bengals, who has 3,869 yards rushing and 33 TDs in the three seasons since the two I mentioned.

I'm not implying that Hill is bound for greatness, just showing how easy it is to think very little of a player after two years just to see them turn into pro bowlers.

 

[RayClay]

But you have to at least question the pick. At that time the Pats already had Seymour, Warren,Green and had just picked up Wilfork in round one. So if they pick up another 6-6 300lbs on the D-Line, there has to have been some intention behind him and if you still can`t tell 2 years after that then maybe it`s time to say the pick is a bust. He has one more year to prove it but right now he hasn`t shown anything at all. This organization has made some great decisions but this was not one of them.

No you can't call him a bust, because he never plays.

I predict he will have tremendous potential over a number of years and the only way he can spoil it is by actually appearing in games.

 

[RayClay]

No slick, you're the dud on this...Johnson is just dumb.

If he was legit, than he would have passed Givens on the depth chart. He is prolly 1 step ahead of Donald Hayes as far as intelligence goes.

Yes, he is fast. But also, he isn't too savvy.

Hopefully he will have breakout year, but I guess we will see.

His mistake was actually playing some games at wide receiver and even excelling at special teams for a while.

Had he taken Hill's route, he could have been the fastest guy on the team with unlimited potential!

Now he'll never have the mystique that Hill has.

Potential is spoiled by actual performance.

 

[spacecrime]

Why can't Hill play NT? He is strong as a bull but doesn't have that much speed, you don't need that much at NT, although Wilfork is pretty quick.

No reason. Seymour played NT in 2001, in spite of the fact that people said he was too tall, and played too high. We did okay that year, IIRC. In 2003 Warren played NT for about 8 weeks while Ted Washington was hurt, and our run defense improved statistically.

 

[DaBruinz]

* Wright didn't just play ST's. He played in the reg D, too. Not in a regular rotation, but he got in many more D plays than Hill has in 2 years. Wright had more tackles, 4 against Miami last year than Hill has in his nfl career.

Again, how can you compare a guy who was #2 on the depth chart at NT to a guy who is #4 on the depth chart at DE? You seem oblivious to the idea that having a 4th DE on the game roster was of less importance when the Pats were hurting for DBs and LBs.