Giant Advantages ?

[ljuneau]

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute and attribute that position to the opponent. Often, the straw man is set up to deliberately overstate the opponent's position.[1] A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

This is a strong definition of your entire "Giants Advantage" logic.

 

[A.C Vegas]

How much of the time during those games did the patriots NOT run a vanilla scheme I understand that you are a Giants fan and that you for some very odd reason are delusional about the prowess of your team aganst mine. but seriously here is a few qurestions for you

who would your rather have 2 weeks to prepare a team for a a big important game Tom coughlin or BB

who would you rather having running the offense in a a big game
Eli Manning or Tom Brady

who's experence in Big games would your rather have the Pats or the Giants

Which teams record would you rather have 18-0 or 13-6

which would you rather have the highest scoring offense in history (589) or the giants scoring out put (373)

which would you rather have a record point differaital (315) or your Giants 22

who you would rather have catching the ball Moss,Welker,Watson,Stallworth, Gaffney,Faulk or Burress, Toomer, Boss the other Steve Smith, S. Moss and Jacobs.

and hey All you Pats fans feel free to respond to

there you go leek answer those

 

[Oswlek]

Yeah but they're playing Tom Brady and Randy Moss here. You have to take that into account.

They still need to mix things up. I find no fault in the decision. Had the safety played it right, it is likely a risky pass going to Moss or Welker, and Brady was knocked down right as he threw it, so it isn't as if he had a whole lot of options.

 

[Watson's IQ]

Your nickname fits, Mr. Strawman.
Find one sentence of mine that says Kevin Dockery is "immortal" or any implication of that meaning.

The "Immortal Kevin Dockery" appellation is mine, I never attributed it to you. It's just what I'm choosing to call him for my own amusement.

Same goes for the comment about Giants fan logic, which was a joke, and certainly not made at your expense. Unless you think you're the only Giants fan on the planet. The fact that you're the only one around here to defend your asinine prognostications is merely coincidence.

 

[Watson's IQ]

Your nickname fits, Mr. Strawman.
Find one sentence of mine that says Kevin Dockery is "immortal" or any implication of that meaning.

You've made some solid points in this thread, but too often you've devolved into pointless troll banter, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

There are level headed posters on this board, and I happen to be one of them, but the fact that you haven't provided any substantial evidence of your claims as to the Giants advantage speaks for itself.

 

[A.C Vegas]

You've made some solid points in this thread, but too often you've devolved into pointless troll banter, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

There are level headed posters on this board, and I happen to be one of them, but the fact that you haven't provided any substantial evidence of your claims as to the Giants advantage speaks for itself.

and he still won't answer the questions i asked of him

 

[Watson's IQ]

and he still won't answer the questions i asked of him

Of course he won't. Man, this thread is almost 30 pages long, plenty of people have asked him rational reasonable questions..

He's only one poster, of course, and there's a whole army of us.. To some extent I really admire his tenacity, but so far he's only chosen to answer what he can twist to his advantage.

Here's one I'd like to see answered:

The Pats played their worst defensive game of the year in week 17, the Giants played arguably their best offensive game.. The Patriots still won. Wouldn't logic dictate the two teams are more likely to regress to the mean of their standard performances for the season, rather than playing even worse, and even better, respectively?

Take a crack at that one.

 

[Oswlek]

Of course he won't. Man, this thread is almost 30 pages long, plenty of people have asked him rational reasonable questions..

He's only one poster, of course, and there's a whole army of us.. To some extent I really admire his tenacity, but so far he's only chosen to answer what he can twist to his advantage.

Here's one I'd like to see answered:

The Pats played their worst defensive game of the year in week 17, the Giants played arguably their best offensive game.. The Patriots still won. Wouldn't logic dictate the two teams are more likely to regress to the mean of their standard performances for the season, rather than playing even worse, and even better, respectively?

Take a crack at that one.

I disagree that NE played their worst game of the year. I would say that they played worse against NYJ, Miami, Baltimore and maybe one more that is excaping me right now.

It can be said, though, that NY played at worst a top 3 game against NE and NE played at best a bottom 5 game. And yet NE still won.

 

[Watson's IQ]

I disagree that NE played their worst game of the year. I would say that they played worse against NYJ, Miami, Baltimore and maybe one more that is excaping me right now.

It can be said, though, that NY played at worst a top 3 game against NE and NE played at best a bottom 5 game. And yet NE still won.

It's debatable, I guess.

I'm just going to boil it down simply that the Pats allowed the most points they've allowed all year to the Giants (35).

The OP is calling for a 38-34 Giants win. That would simultaneously be the most points the Patriots have given up all season, and also tie for the Giants season high (38 against Buffalo). That's the point I'm driving at.

 

[leek21]

there you go leek answer those

You want answers fine:
1) BB
2)Brady
3) Pats
4) 18-0
5) 589
6) 315
7) Moss, etc..

That being said... it doesn't guarantee a Pats win. I started off this thread with the words: "I realize the fact New England is a great team...."

Do you know Dallas and GB also had every statistical advantage over the Giants ? (I AM NOT COMPARING GB/DAL to the PATS)

Stats don't mean everything... Giants were very competitive with the Pats in the first game, and contrary to some claims there really are valid reasons why they can be competitive again.

Giants 38 Pats 34

If the Giants do win, are you going to give them credit
OR
Are you going to blame it on the 'refs', 'a bad day', 'luck', etc.. ?

 

[Watson's IQ]

Giants 38 Pats 34

If the Giants do win, are you going to give them credit
OR
Are you going to blame it on the 'refs', 'a bad day', 'luck', etc.. ?

If the Giants do win, you come back Monday morning and I will give them credit for pulling off the greatest upset in Super Bowl history. No qualifiers on it.

Now answer my bolded question above, if you would please.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Why are we even having this argument? The facts:

The Giants mediocre defense has to face the greatest offense in the history of the NFL (Greatest QB/WR tandom).
The Patriots Defense was superior to the Giants defense in the regular season, and were better against the run and gave up less points in the playoffs.

The Patriots beat the Giants 38-35 in week 17, with 2 starting OL'ers out and our best blocking TE out. We also played vanilla defense and offense in the first half of the game. Down 12, in the 3rd quarter the Patriots started playing with more intensity and the play calling became less predictable and vanilla, resulting in a 22-0 run.

Those are the FACTS.

Do you want me to list the 50+ Individual, team, franchise, and NFL records we set this year?

18-0, 13-6.

There is nothing else. I don't think that the Giants 19 more rushing yards per game in the regular season is enough to think they will upset the Patriots.

 

[A.C Vegas]

that depends on if the ref do screw us and make bad calls if they beat us ligit then i would give them credit. I reallyt don't see it happening but i would. now are you going to come back and take it like a man when they lose

 

[Satchboogie3]

You want answers fine:
1) BB
2)Brady
3) Pats
4) 18-0
5) 589
6) 315
7) Moss, etc..

That being said... it doesn't guarantee a Pats win. I started off this thread with the words: "I realize the fact New England is a great team...."

Do you know Dallas and GB also had every statistical advantage over the Giants ? (I AM NOT COMPARING GB/DAL to the PATS)

Stats don't mean everything... Giants were very competitive with the Pats in the first game, and contrary to some claims there really are valid reasons why they can be competitive again.

Giants 38 Pats 34

If the Giants do win, are you going to give them credit
OR
Are you going to blame it on the 'refs', 'a bad day', 'luck', etc.. ?

You do realize that Dallas actually wasn't that impressive in the final month of the season? Their offense fell apart. Their TEAM fell apart.
Here are the last 4 Dallas games of the regular season:
Dallas vs Detriot: 28-27 Dallas (They REALLY should have lost. Romo fumbled the ball with a minute left and DET went to recover, only the idiot lineman tried to pick it up and run and ended up giving the ball right back to DAL).

Dallas vs Eagles: 6-10 Eagles
Dallas vs Panthers: 20-13 Dallas
Dallas vs Redskins: 6-27 Redskins (Romo started that game and sucked)

Dallas was 2-2 in the final 4, averaged 15 points per game vs the 33 ppg they averaged in the first 12 games of the season. They were also outscored 77-60.

Green Bay lost because:
1. they are a young team that tends to make mistakes.
2. Favre stunk in that game. He made huge critical errors that cost GB the game
3. GB wasn't too good in bad weather games. The only outstanding bad weather game they played was against the Seatle... Do you remember the game against the Bears in week 16 were they lost 35-7. GB was just a "bit" overrated...

 

[Satchboogie3]

You know, out of ALL of the ludicrous "points" you tried to make, you never mentioned the only thing that could realistically hurt the Patriots, Tom Brady's ankle. Of course no one knows the extent of his injury or how much of an effect it will have on his game if its not fully healed by game time, but that is probably the strongest reason why the Patriots might not have a good game.

In that same respect, one could argue that the Giants might not have a good game given that several of their players have the flu.

I just tried to throw you a lifeline. If you want to make a sound argument, try going in that direction. If you keep trying to cherry pick stats, your going to drown.

 

[Skree]

Plaxico Burress says the Giants will win 23-17....

Wow, with that kind of endorsement.....How do the Pats stand a chance against Plaxico's confidence? Game over man, game over.

 

[Oswlek]

Plaxico Burress says the Giants will win 23-17....

Wow, with that kind of endorsement.....How do the Pats stand a chance against Plaxico's confidence? Game over man, game over.

Does anyone know where Plax sits in Peter King's "Will to Win" rankings?

 

[leek21]

that depends on if the ref do screw us and make bad calls if they beat us ligit then i would give them credit. I reallyt don't see it happening but i would. now are you going to come back and take it like a man when they lose

There are likely to be some bad calls that could go either way... I don't want to hear you guys crying about them after the game. Take your loss and give Giants credit. Agreed ?

 

[leek21]

Of course he won't. Man, this thread is almost 30 pages long, plenty of people have asked him rational reasonable questions..

He's only one poster, of course, and there's a whole army of us.. To some extent I really admire his tenacity, but so far he's only chosen to answer what he can twist to his advantage.

I haven't avoided any questions... I may not have answered every question but it is not because I am avoiding it. Actually I could come up with better arguments for you team then you guys have done so far... you are almost making this too easy. For evidence see your question below. LOL!

Here's one I'd like to see answered:

The Pats played their worst defensive game of the year in week 17, the Giants played arguably their best offensive game.. The Patriots still won. Wouldn't logic dictate the two teams are more likely to regress to the mean of their standard performances for the season, rather than playing even worse, and even better, respectively?
Take a crack at that one.

"The Pats played their worst defensive game of the year..."

One of your fellow Pats fans told me the Ravens game was the worst...

But I understand what you are trying to say... "Pats had a bad defensive day"... are they likely to have a 'bad day' again in the SB ?

We must ask why was it a "bad defensive day" ?

If the answer is because of the Giants offense then what makes you
think you won't have another 'bad day' ?

Did your defense blow some coverages, did it drop some easy picks, was it penalized heavily ?

Not any more than normal for all of the above. So what made it a 'bad day', if not the Giants offense ?


The exact same thing goes for the Giants offense "having their best day"...

I would say the had a 'good day' because of the weak Pats defense.

Do you think it was just a fluke the Giants happened to have their best day while the Pats happened to have their worst day ?

No. That is silly... the Giants had a good day on offense which automatically results in the Pats having a 'bad day'.

Unless you can point out specific things (other then the Giants offense) for why it was the worst day for the Pats you have only helped my side of the argument.

 

[leek21]

Why are we even having this argument? The facts:

The Giants mediocre defense has to face the greatest offense in the history of the NFL (Greatest QB/WR tandom).
The Patriots Defense was superior to the Giants defense in the regular season, and were better against the run and gave up less points in the playoffs.

The Patriots beat the Giants 38-35 in week 17, with 2 starting OL'ers out and our best blocking TE out. We also played vanilla defense and offense in the first half of the game. Down 12, in the 3rd quarter the Patriots started playing with more intensity and the play calling became less predictable and vanilla, resulting in a 22-0 run.

Those are the FACTS.

Do you want me to list the 50+ Individual, team, franchise, and NFL records we set this year?

18-0, 13-6.

There is nothing else. I don't think that the Giants 19 more rushing yards per game in the regular season is enough to think they will upset the Patriots.

Have you ever heard the saying "styles make fights" ?
It's a common saying in boxing.

Muhammad Ali the greatest boxer of all time for some reason had difficulty fighting Ken Norton who doesn't rank in the all time greats. Ali split fights with Norton, and even had has jaw broken in one of the fights.

I think the same is true in football. The Patriots showed in the first game the Giants style gives them difficulty.

Statistically it is no comparison Pats win easily... but on the field it's a much closer game. Pats won the first game 38-35 and had to make a great comeback to win.

This time they might not be so lucky Giants 38 Pats 34.