From Laughing Stock to Powerhouse - The man most responsible for the turnaround

[RayClay]

wait..no Bobby Grier...?

(i voted for Kraft)

Got it covered in my previous post.

 

[RayClay]

Would Belichick have left the Jets to coach the Hartford Patriots?

 

[maverick4]

Would Belichick have left the Jets to coach the Hartford Patriots?

Yes he probably would have, and having not done that, would have probably won the Jets 3 superbowls by now independent of Kraft or Brady.

 

[maverick4]

Don't argue. Robert Kraft founded the team in the 1990's and hired Parcells and Belichick.

You're joking... right?

'founded the team'??

'hired Parcells'??

I tried to read it again assuming it was satirical, but I don't see it. I'm scared that you might actually be serious.

[EDIT] nevermind i went back and saw your post #68. yeah, the reasoning of the kraft lovers isn't making any sense to me either.

 

[Gunnails]

I voted Brady! but my first thought was Adam Vinateri.

Normaly I would say owner first. But the Pats are an exception, Kraft and Pioli are awsome, but I rank it.

1 Vinateri
2 Brady
3 BB
4 Kraft
5 Pioli

Great thread and a fun read.

 

[RayClay]

You're joking... right?

'founded the team'??

'hired Parcells'??

I tried to read it again assuming it was satirical, but I don't see it. I'm scared that you might actually be serious.

[EDIT] nevermind i went back and saw your post #68. yeah, the reasoning of the kraft lovers isn't making any sense to me either.

Sorry, I'm having trouble taking this 6 year history of the Patriots seriously.

Robert Kraft, without a doubt. Without him there was no Parcells, no Belichick, no Pioli, no Brady

 

[fair catch fryar]

Yes he probably would have, and having not done that, would have probably won the Jets 3 superbowls by now independent of Kraft or Brady.

Wow! You're smoking some good sh!t!

I know your hell-bent on not giving Kraft any credit, but to say BB would've won without Brady is crazy. IMO, and yes, that is only my opinion, these two owe each other all of the credit for their successes with NE. At the end of it all, is when Kraft was willing to send a 1st round pick to a division rival in order to get Belichick.

 

[italian pat patriot]

Oh, and BTW, I disagree with the statement that the patriots were a laughing stock before Kraft. Sullivan gave a us some great teams in the 70's and the 80's and 90's. Yes, there were cycles, but the patriots had their share of great teams. I do agree that Kraft is the key. Without him, and without him choosing to pass on tens of millions, the patriots would be playing in St Louis or Hartford.

very well said; i totally agree

 

[italian pat patriot]

no game...Mr Robert Kraft is allready at n.125 votes...

 

[TruthSeeker]

I voted Brady! but my first thought was Adam Vinateri.

Normaly I would say owner first. But the Pats are an exception, Kraft and Pioli are awsome, but I rank it.

1 Vinateri
2 Brady
3 BB
4 Kraft
5 Pioli

Great thread and a fun read.

I don't think so.

 

[RayClay]

My serious answer to this insultingly named thread is:

Bill Belichick and a guy with a lot of money (in this case Kraft).

There are a number of owners with a lot of money who give authority to one coach/gm type.

Had any of those bought the Pats and hired Belichick, the results would have been the same.

Before you say "But he was a genius to hire Belichick!!!", consider...

He inherited Bill Parcells, hired Bobby Grier and undermined both Parcells and Pete Carroll by giving the power to Grier.

So, he hired and promoted a total incompetent and by so doing ran off a hall of fame coach and The top college coach of the generation.

He's not the only owner who would have hired BB either. BB was considered a defensive genius for years around the league and did do some good things at Cleveland.

Had Kraft ditched Bobby Grier when he should have, it's quite possible Poodle Pete would have adjusted to the pro game and had success. The largest part of his problem was malcontents complaining to Grier behind his back.

 

[maverick4]

My serious answer to this insultingly named thread is:

Bill Belichick and a guy with a lot of money (in this case Kraft).

There are a number of owners with a lot of money who give authority to one coach/gm type.

Had any of those bought the Pats and hired Belichick, the results would have been the same.

Before you say "But he was a genius to hire Belichick!!!", consider...

He inherited Bill Parcells, hired Bobby Grier and undermined both Parcells and Pete Carroll by giving the power to Grier.

So, he hired and promoted a total incompetent and by so doing ran off a hall of fame coach and The top college coach of the generation.

He's not the only owner who would have hired BB either. BB was considered a defensive genius for years around the league and did do some good things at Cleveland.

Had Kraft ditched Bobby Grier when he should have, it's quite possible Poodle Pete would have adjusted to the pro game and had success. The largest part of his problem was malcontents complaining to Grier behind his back.

Definitely.

Under the same logic Paul Allen would be hailed as a genius and the main reason for Seattle's success if he had the random luck to hire Belichick instead of Mike Holmgren.

And Wayne Huizanga will be the main reason for the Dolphins turnaround since he hired Bill Parcells and didn't sell the Dolphins.

 

[WestPat]

Tom Brady


Kraft and BB alone would have made the Pats competitive, respectable, and a contender.
Great QBs' are the ones who transform good teams into powerhouses and legendary franchises.

 

[maverick4]

Tom Brady

Kraft and BB alone would have made the Pats competitive, respectable, and a contender.
GreatvQBs are the ones who transform good teams into powerhouses and legendary franchises.

WestPat, would Bill Polian have turned around the Colts without Peyton Manning? I say yes, the guy knows what he is doing, look at what he did in Buffalo in the 90's and with his drafts with the Colts. Same principle applies here. It's Belichick (and Pioli).

Was Joe Montana, Eddie Debartalo, or Bill Walsh most responsible for the 49ers dynasty? Obviously Walsh.

 

[RayClay]

Definitely.

Under the same logic Paul Allen would be hailed as a genius and the main reason for Seattle's success if he had the random luck to hire Belichick instead of Mike Holmgren.

And Wayne Huizanga will be the main reason for the Dolphins turnaround since he hired Bill Parcells and didn't sell the Dolphins.

Nevertheless, a great owner who got a great stadium built in a tough area.

Still, the much reviled Billy Sullivan had a much more difficult task in forcing a football team on a city that didn't want it and maintaining it through some tough times for thirty years and building a stadium, crappy though it was, so Kraft had a team and a stadium to buy.

 

[WestPat]

WestPat, would Bill Polian have turned around the Colts without Peyton Manning? I say yes, the guy knows what he is doing, look at what he did in Buffalo in the 90's and with his drafts with the Colts. Same principle applies here. It's Belichick (and Pioli).

Was Joe Montana, Eddie Debartalo, or Bill Walsh most responsible for the 49ers dynasty? Obviously Walsh.

I say yes also,but would they be this great without Manning? my point is, that Kraft and BB would have turned the Pats into a contender year in and year out, but to reach this level of greatness , you need a once in a generation QB, we have two of those now, Brady and Manning.
the 49ers are another intriguing team, Walsh's schemes were innovative and revolutionary, but it needed a Montana to make it work.

I think at the end of the day, a lot of things have to happen in order to a franchise to materialize...great coach, innovative way of running things, luck...but a great QB IMO will make these things come in focus.

 

[maverick4]

I think at the end of the day, a lot of things have to happen in order to a franchise to materialize...great coach, innovative way of running things, luck...but a great QB IMO will make these things come in focus.

Not true.
Walsh's system continued with Young and Bono.

The Giants won 2 superbowls with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler.

It's not about the QB, and a great owner doesn't mean a team will be a winner.

It is not about the star player or a great owner. It is all about the football architects, guys who know how to win and will turn around any losing franchise because they are there: Walsh, Parcells, Polian, Belichick, Ron Wolf, etc.

 

[rabthepat]

Bob Kraft.......

 

[primetime]

Not true.
Walsh's system continued with Young and Bono.

The Giants won 2 superbowls with Phil Simms and Jeff Hostetler.

It's not necessarily about the star QB. It's about the star player. Walsh's system did not revolve around the QB, it revolved around Jerry Rice's unbelievable talent. The Giants system revolved around their dominating defense led by the greatest outside linebacker to ever play. The Ravens system revolved around their dominating defense led by the greatest middle linebacker to ever play. The Bears, despite their dominating defense couldn't have done what they did without Payton, Singletary, and Carrier.

Bill Polian absolutely does not turn around the Colts without Peyton Manning, just like Belichick/Pioli do not turn around the Patriots without Tom Brady. These are the players around which the teams revolve; two of the best all-time (probably THE two best) at the most important position in football.

It's unbelievable that we Patriots fans continue to take Tom Brady for granted. This team would not even be a contender... indeed, it never would have been a contender... with any other QB outside of Manning (who we obviously would not have a chance at).

 

[IcyPatriot]

BOB KRAFT.

He got BB here.

That took guts.

Yup and he gave the points and coin ... I bet he would have given more than that.