From Laughing Stock to Powerhouse - The man most responsible for the turnaround

[ClevTrev]

You have to credit the football architects like Polian, Parcells, Belichick for turning around franchises, it's not the owner or the star player. If you separate architect from owner from star player, over time it is the architect who continues to turn around franchises and create winners.

This is a perfect example of why the basic question in this thread is flawed. There are two primary flaws in this question:

To assign responsibility for success to any one person is the first flaw.

The second flaw is attempting to identify an event representing when the "turnaround" occurred. Some think it's when Parcells came on board to coach the team. Some think it's when Orthwein was forced to sell the team when he couldn't get out of the stadium lease (had he been able to get out of the lease, the team would now be known as the St. Louis Patriots). Some think it's when Kraft bought the team that he forced Othwein to sell because Kraft wouldn't accept a $75m stadium buyout to allow the team to be moved to St. Louis. Some think it's when Belichick was hired away from the Jets. Some think it's when Brady was drafted. Some think it's when Bledsoe was injured allowing Brady to become the starting QB.

The reason for the flaw is that all these events contributed to the "turnaround." To isolate any one incident as the sole reason for the "turnaround" negates the strange confluence of all these events in contributing to the success of today's franchise.

 

[mgteich]

In January 1997, the New England Patriots were in the SB. In the next year, they were in the playoffs. As you say, we had a HOF quarterback. I find it extremely insulting that we believe that Kraft, Belichick and pioli would not have been able to build a SB team aound the HOF quarterback we already had. Many have built SB teams around weaker quarterbacks. Curiously the patriots were just a couple of years removed from the Super Bowl. Yet, we believe that it is only with Brady that Kraft, Belichick, pioli and the rest of the team could make it. We should celebrate having one of the best quarterbacks ever, but this is pure NONESENSE.

We did indeed have a team in an ownership crisis and a TEAM that needed a lot of help. Please recall that in 2001 we won the SB with the worst set of talent in the history of the league, but we won as TEAM.

The change was overnight??? Fascinating! We were very, very lucky to be in the playoffs in 2001. Many, many things went the patriots way. That is what made it a great season. And with the magic Brady leading us, we won, and the team was turned around forever. Right? No, wrong! We didn't even make the playoffs in the next year. Belichick came in with a five year rebuilding plan. In the first three years, we had two aweful seasons and a miracle. As per plan, in the next two years we won two SB's. Not bad!!! A lot needed to be done in those first three years, many changes in system and players. A team needed to be drafted and built to support our quarterback. If our quarterback were Pennington, a team would have built to support him.

So, IMHO, we have been incredibly blessed as fans to have ownership bring in Parcells and then Belichick to build the last two cycles of great patriots teams. What is truly awesome is the front office has been so good that they have kept this together so that we have had no real crises in our off years of 2005 and 2006. The team re-tooled and are ready to go again in the last three years of this third five year dynasty in a row. That the last two are both under Belichick and Brady and Kraft and pioli has been really special. We have a ten year dynasty, something never seen in the history of the league. Of course, I would argue that the dynasty started a bit earlier, with the arrival of Bledsoe and Parcells. We have what no set of fans have ever had.

And we whine, and we whine, and we whine

You're seriously underestimating Tom Brady. Drew Bledsoe was a great QB, possibly a HOFer. Now, granted, in 2001 he was on the decline, but with him, BB & Kraft were 5-13 as a team. Look what they've done since Brady has been QB. The change was OVERNIGHT. The team went from mediocre to Super Bowl b/c Mo Lewis knocked out Drew.

The last five years, this team would be slightly above middle of the pack without Brady - I see no evidence to suggest otherwise.

 

[godef]

Without Robert Kraft, no Bill Bellichick. Without Bill Bellichick, no Tom Brady.

 

[fair catch fryar]

AGAIN, what does this have to do with winning football games? Oh that's right, nothing.

WAAAY too many people are thanking Kraft for not moving and mixing that up with the topic at hand.
Mr. Kraft is a great owner, but Parcells and Belichick have created the Pats dynasty.

Excuse me for having an opinion. I didn't realize that your opinion and supreme knowledge super-ceded all others. Next time I'll think before responding. You're right, Bob Kraft has nothing to do with it because we could've all become St. Louis Patriots fans and continued to revel in their success as BB and Brady would've wound up there through divine intervention and gone on to beat the other ST. Louis team in the first SB. Yeah, your right, Kraft has nothing to do with this team's success.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

In January 1997, the New England Patriots were in the SB. In the next year, they were in the playoffs. As you say, we had a HOF quarterback. I find it extremely insulting that we believe that Kraft, Belichick and pioli would not have been able to build a SB team aound the HOF quarterback we already had. Many have built SB teams around weaker quarterbacks. Curiously the patriots were just a couple of years removed from the Super Bowl. Yet, we believe that it is only with Brady that Kraft, Belichick, pioli and the rest of the team could make it. We should celebrate having one of the best quarterbacks ever, but this is pure NONESENSE.

We did indeed have a team in an ownership crisis and a TEAM that needed a lot of help. Please recall that in 2001 we won the SB with the worst set of talent in the history of the league, but we won as TEAM.

The change was overnight??? Fascinating! We were very, very lucky to be in the playoffs in 2001. Many, many things went the patriots way. That is what made it a great season. And with the magic Brady leading us, we won, and the team was turned around forever. Right? No, wrong! We didn't even make the playoffs in the next year. Belichick came in with a five year rebuilding plan. In the first three years, we had two aweful seasons and a miracle. As per plan, in the next two years we won two SB's. Not bad!!! A lot needed to be done in those first three years, many changes in system and players. A team needed to be drafted and built to support our quarterback. If our quarterback were Pennington, a team would have built to support him.

So, IMHO, we have been incredibly blessed as fans to have ownership bring in Parcells and then Belichick to build the last two cycles of great patriots teams. What is truly awesome is the front office has been so good that they have kept this together so that we have had no real crises in our off years of 2005 and 2006. The team re-tooled and are ready to go again in the last three years of this third five year dynasty in a row. That the last two are both under Belichick and Brady and Kraft and pioli has been really special. We have a ten year dynasty, something never seen in the history of the league. Of course, I would argue that the dynasty started a bit earlier, with the arrival of Bledsoe and Parcells. We have what no set of fans have ever had.

And we whine, and we whine, and we whine

Parcells began the turnaround - and Kraft had nothing to do with that. Orthwein brought Tuna in, Bob butted heads with him...

Kraft had the good sense to know Parcells was an egomaniacal transient, so he moved on. But the team was going backwards with his next choices as HC and GM and a supposed HOF QB at the helm until Belichick arrived and gradually cleaned house.

That said, Belichick might have built a system winner here and changed the culture of entitlement, had he survived long enough absent Brady. Would have been a tough road given his relationship with the media though.

What brought us that first ring, and the goodwill and time to firm up the foundation, was Brady. What enabled us to build that into a dynasty was the synergy between a QB, a HC and his staff, and an owner. I think each could well have been successful in their own right, but not nearly as successful as the are together. Tom is and always was a lot more than you give him credit for. All Bill did initially was give him a shot at a roster spot. He didn't surround him with talent. I get the strong impression you were a Bledsoe Krishna. Believe me, after 2000 Bill knew he would never win a championship with that QB. Not only had he publicly undressed him over the previous 3 seasons, revealing all his weaknesses, he'd had him as a HC for a full season and another off season and he knew Drew was not going to change into the QB he needed to run his system. Parcells took a shot at him after he felt he might have matured given his circumstances, and it cost him his job with America's team.

Kraft is a tremendous businessman. But before Belichick entered the picture he knew little about football operations. Like most fans, his decisions were rooted in emotion. Credit him for wanting to learn and recognizining a man who could teach him how you have to eschew emotion and make sound football and business decisions to create and maintain a consistently successful franchise. And who brought a lot of other teachers and competent technicians with him in the bargain.

Yet, at the end of the day, had Mo not stepped up, Kraft might be the only one still here. And tickets would be a lot easier to come by.

 

[jczxohn1]

Pick ONE PERSON from the list that is MOST responsible from turning around this franchise from what was a laughing stock to a dominating elite team now.

Who would be your top pick?

Robt Orthwein, kept this team from going to St Louis, hired Parcells, and sold to Kraft. How quickly they forget......

 

[JoeSixPat]

I went with Kraft for a number of reasons, but mainly because whatever credit one would give Parcells, the fact that he got to the Super Bowl and squandered the chance for a Championship by putting his own career head of the team and the fans is unforgiveable in my eyes.

I do give Parcells a good share of credit however.

Parcells pre-dated Bledsoe and Kraft - and without him I question whether Kraft buys the team. Parcells instantly gave the organization credibility - and that was the foundation that Kraft built upon...

But again, I emphasize that Parcells nearly tore down that foundation by leaving for the Jets effectively while coaching a Super Bowl team.

Thank goodness Kraft was able to bring things back together.

 

[RayClay]

Without Robert Kraft, no Bill Bellichick. Without Bill Bellichick, no Tom Brady.

First, how do you know that? Kraft hired Carroll first, not Belichick. Considering poodles success at USC, Krafts horrible judgment in giving Grier the reigns might have resulted in him losing a hall of fame coach in Parcells and a college legend in Carroll.

Since people insist on this foolishness, I nominate Bobby Grier. Without him, Parcells lasts another year and leaves, like he always does anyway and Carroll isn't undermined and wins three Superbowls.

All that's required is they hire Rebhein to say "eh, I think Brady's a little better". Since he was on the Giants, he could have been Parcells pick.

They didn't draft Brady until the sixth round. As far as BB knew, Tim Rattay was rated about equal. Rebhein called the coin flip on that one.

Not that I don't love these wonderful revisionist histories where the earth and heavens were created in 2000.

Or Zeke Mowatt

or Mike Holovak.

or Michael Jackson.

 

[patriotspride]

it all starts at the top .bob kraft

 

[godef]

Parcells began the turnaround - and Kraft had nothing to do with that. Orthwein brought Tuna in, Bob butted heads with him...

Kraft had the good sense to know Parcells was an egomaniacal transient, so he moved on. But the team was going backwards with his next choices as HC and GM and a supposed HOF QB at the helm until Belichick arrived and gradually cleaned house.

That said, Belichick might have built a system winner here and changed the culture of entitlement, had he survived long enough absent Brady. Would have been a tough road given his relationship with the media though.

What brought us that first ring, and the goodwill and time to firm up the foundation, was Brady. What enabled us to build that into a dynasty was the synergy between a QB, a HC and his staff, and an owner. I think each could well have been successful in their own right, but not nearly as successful as the are together. Tom is and always was a lot more than you give him credit for. All Bill did initially was give him a shot at a roster spot. He didn't surround him with talent. I get the strong impression you were a Bledsoe Krishna. Believe me, after 2000 Bill knew he would never win a championship with that QB. Not only had he publicly undressed him over the previous 3 seasons, revealing all his weaknesses, he'd had him as a HC for a full season and another off season and he knew Drew was not going to change into the QB he needed to run his system. Parcells took a shot at him after he felt he might have matured given his circumstances, and it cost him his job with America's team.

Kraft is a tremendous businessman. But before Belichick entered the picture he knew little about football operations. Like most fans, his decisions were rooted in emotion. Credit him for wanting to learn and recognizining a man who could teach him how you have to eschew emotion and make sound football and business decisions to create and maintain a consistently successful franchise. And who brought a lot of other teachers and competent technicians with him in the bargain.

Yet, at the end of the day, had Mo not stepped up, Kraft might be the only one still here. And tickets would be a lot easier to come by.

I beg to differ. The Patriots were in decline after three years of Pete (10-6, 9-7, 8-8), and Belichick essentially began a new rebuilding phase. By this time, Kraft had become krafty enough to understand how much he should be involved in football operations and begun running the organization from the business perspective, which he already excelled in doing in his other businesses.

But from the beginning, despite trying to dabble with football operations, he began infusing business excellence into all aspects of the organization, something that was sorely lacking under all the prior owership. IMHO, Parcells would not have been as successful under any of the prior owners (and if he and Kraft actually got along, might have been even better). When you apply business excellence to anything, it can be surprising how much of the detail begins to take care of itself.

Bottom line: Kraft was already a successful businessman when he came to the Pats. Perhaps it took a couple of years to figure some things out and apply his knowledge to a new and unique venture, but it was only inevitiable that the franchise would be successful. And the bit of luck in landing Tom brady only brought the success over the top.

 

[PatsDeb]

Robt Orthwein, kept this team from going to St Louis, hired Parcells, and sold to Kraft. How quickly they forget......

Orthwine bought the team to move it to St. Louis. Kraft convinced him to sell it to him to keep it in NE.

 

[godef]

First, how do you know that? Kraft hired Carroll first, not Belichick. Considering poodles success at USC, Krafts horrible judgment in giving Grier the reigns might have resulted in him losing a hall of fame coach in Parcells and a college legend in Carroll.

All irrelevent. Kraft ultimately hired Belichick, and the rest is history.

Since people insist on this foolishness, I nominate Bobby Grier. Without him, Parcells lasts another year and leaves, like he always does anyway and Carroll isn't undermined and wins three Superbowls.

Nyet. Parcells would have eventually left no matter what (five different teams but never fired; he has the track record). And on what basis do you think Carroll wins 3 Super Bowls? He did not succeed with the Jets, and did not succeed with the Pats. As Flutie was a great college QB but a mediocre pro QB, so is Carroll a great college coach and mediocre pro coach. Despite what you hear, college and the pros is vastly different.

All that's required is they hire Rebhein to say "eh, I think Brady's a little better". Since he was on the Giants, he could have been Parcells pick.

But he wasn't, so don't try to rewrite history. Give Belichick credit for having hired him where Parcells did not when he coached here.

They didn't draft Brady until the sixth round. As far as BB knew, Tim Rattay was rated about equal. Rebhein called the coin flip on that one.

LMAO, where did you hear that one? Yes, they considered both Rattay and Brady, but definitely decided that Brady was the better of the two. I think you can find info on this in both the Tom Brady and Making of a Coach books. And given that the team had Bledsoe, and the fact that no one else was drafting him, he was still available int he 6th round. Definitely some luck there, but it wasn't like the pick was done blindfolded.

Not that I don't love these wonderful revisionist histories where the earth and heavens were created in 2000.

Not any more revisionist than your version.

Or Zeke Mowatt

or Mike Holovak.

or Michael Jackson.

Huh?

 

[BradyManny]

I really don't get the "Kraft hired BB, so it's he's the most important" idea. Sure, it's super, but to take it back to the "there's no BB without Kraft" idea, you might as well say "What about the parents of Robert Kraft, Bill Belichick & Tom Brady? Without any of them, none of the three would be alive." If Tom's Dad decides to stay a priest, we're probably watching a 6-10 team right now, should we take it that far back?

 

[primetime]

Belichick and Kraft wouldn't have won any Super Bowls without Tom Brady. We, as fans, take Brady for granted.

 

[Flying Fungi]

wait..no Bobby Grier...?

(i voted for Kraft)

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Robert Kraft, without a doubt. Without him there was no Parcells, no Belichick, no Pioli, no Brady

 

[JoeSixPat]

Robert Kraft, without a doubt. Without him there was no Parcells, no Belichick, no Pioli, no Brady

Interesting. I didn't know Kraft had anything to do with the hiring of Parcells.

Is there a story we don't know about, how Kraft somehow convinced Orthwein to hire Parcells?

 

[maverick4]

All the insane people saying it's all Kraft better be consistent and PRAISE the Dolphins Owner for being the main reason for turning around the Dolphins franchise in about 4 years from now since, you know, he hired Bill Parcells and didn't sell or move his team, so thus gets most of the credit.

 

[RayClay]

Huh?

...................

 

[RayClay]

Interesting. I didn't know Kraft had anything to do with the hiring of Parcells.

Is there a story we don't know about, how Kraft somehow convinced Orthwein to hire Parcells?

Don't argue. Robert Kraft founded the team in the 1990's and hired Parcells and Belichick.