Edelman to Defense?

[supafly]

(Sergio being cut is a foregone conclusion.)

Let's all hope so anyway!!!

 

[Reckedtrek]

Calling Edelman "Welker Insurance" is like calling a sling shot "Remington M24 insurance".

I give Edelman credit. He tries his best (or appears to) no matter what they ask of him. It's a very admirable quality that many players (and a lot of every day people) do not have enough of. I just think that many on this board are building him up to mythical proportions based on a good game or two 3 years ago in his rookie season.

Whenever someone mentions the possibility of Edelman not making the final roster this year, people go nuts like we're talking about Gronkowski not making the final roster.

 

[Deus Irae]

Did you see Sergio try to play defense? Or see Slater try to play defense, or offense?

Edelman should be cut only when Slater is cut first.
(Sergio being cut is a foregone conclusion.)

Slater is a top special teams player who happens to get a positional delegation. Edelman is not.

You're just going to have to get over your irrational take on Slater. He signed a nice 3 year deal, and he's not going anywhere unless something bizarre happens.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Did you see Sergio try to play defense? Or see Slater try to play defense, or offense?

Edelman should be cut only when Slater is cut first.

Steeler fans rubbing off on you :confused2: ... that is a seriously messed up statement.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Calling Edelman "Welker Insurance" is like calling a sling shot "Remington M24 insurance".

I give Edelman credit. He tries his best (or appears to) no matter what they ask of him. It's a very admirable quality that many players (and a lot of every day people) do not have enough of. I just think that many on this board are building him up to mythical proportions based on a good game or two 3 years ago in his rookie season.

Whenever someone mentions the possibility of Edelman not making the final roster this year, people go nuts like we're talking about Gronkowski not making the final roster.

Last year mid-season I created a thread that Edelman was no longer worth keeping and you should have seen the manure storm that it caused on this board. The outcry was almost unbearable, and I felt like "that guy" who was just arguing against the masses and sounding weaker and weaker. I didn't say he should be cut, but I suggested that he had regressed and "is what he is"- which is an offensive liability and average punt returner. Then when he switched to defense, everyone made sure to tell me again how stupid I was for suggesting that the board's favorite binkie was not a superstar intangible player.

Here is the thread from 9/27/11

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-overreacting-but-time-pull-plug-edelman.html

 

[Sciz]

average punt returner

Try again. He's the best punt returner the Pats have had in a decade.

 

[Deus Irae]

Last year mid-season I created a thread that Edelman was no longer worth keeping and you should have seen the manure storm that it caused on this board. The outcry was almost unbearable, and I felt like "that guy" who was just arguing against the masses and sounding weaker and weaker. I didn't say he should be cut, but I suggested that he had regressed and "is what he is"- which is an offensive liability and average punt returner. Then when he switched to defense, everyone made sure to tell me again how stupid I was for suggesting that the board's favorite binkie was not a superstar intangible player.

Here is the thread from 9/27/11

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-overreacting-but-time-pull-plug-edelman.html

You got flamed because your thread was ridiculous, given the context of when it was made, which was after the loss to Buffalo.

And you were saying he should be cut, just in different words:

"I don't think he justifies a roster spot"

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You got flamed because your thread was ridiculous, given the context of when it was made, which was after the loss to Buffalo.

And you were saying he should be cut, just in different words:

"I don't think he justifies a roster spot"

Brady threw 4 INTs against Buffalo. While maybe I did not properly convey the relationship to Edelman's ineffectiveness, I still think he was a primary reason for those INTs. Hernandez was injured and didn't play, while Branch was injured early on and had zero catches.

Look at the distribution and tell me why Brady threw 4 INTs. Obviously he was targeting Gronk/Welker ALL GAME. This was Ochocinco's third game with the Pats, while this was Edelman's third season. I would have expected him to step up and be a reliable third target in that offense, but he was completely useless despite going against Buffalo's worst defender all game.

With Branch and Hernandez out, and with Brady clearly not trusting Ochocinco, it dawned on me that Edelman has completely regressed as a WR and is never going to be good. He's been practicing with Brady for over two years, and five yards is a joke.



REC YDS AVG TD LG TGTS
W. Welker 16 217 13.6 2 33 20
R. Gronkowski 7 109 15.6 2 29 9
C. Ochocinco 2 28 14.0 0 19 4
D. Woodhead 3 20 6.7 0 13 5
S. Ridley 1 8 8.0 0 8 1
J. Edelman 1 5 5.0 0 5 3
D. Branch 0 0 0.0 0 0 3
Team 30 387 12.9 4 33 45

 

[Reckedtrek]

Try again. He's the best punt returner the Pats have had in a decade.

He's a very, very good at punt returns, but that's the only thing he excels at. Between that and his (positive) football focused attitude, is that enough to make his roster spot a given? Maybe, maybe not, but I don't get the outrage seen on this board when it's just suggested that he may not make the final roster this year.

 

[Jackson 2]

He's a very, very good at punt returns, but that's the only thing he excels at. Between that and his (positive) football focused attitude, is that enough to make his roster spot a given? Maybe, maybe not, but I don't get the outrage seen on this board when it's just suggested that he may not make the final roster this year.

He's definitely a very polarizing figure to the people on this board. Not much middle ground when it comes to JE.

 

[Deus Irae]

Brady threw 4 INTs against Buffalo. While maybe I did not properly convey the relationship to Edelman's ineffectiveness, I still think he was a primary reason for those INTs. Hernandez was injured and didn't play, while Branch was injured early on and had zero catches.

Look at the distribution and tell me why Brady threw 4 INTs. Obviously he was targeting Gronk/Welker ALL GAME. This was Ochocinco's third game with the Pats, while this was Edelman's third season. I would have expected him to step up and be a reliable third target in that offense, but he was completely useless despite going against Buffalo's worst defender all game.

With Branch and Hernandez out, and with Brady clearly not trusting Ochocinco, it dawned on me that Edelman has completely regressed as a WR and is never going to be good. He's been practicing with Brady for over two years, and five yards is a joke.



REC YDS AVG TD LG TGTS
W. Welker 16 217 13.6 2 33 20
R. Gronkowski 7 109 15.6 2 29 9
C. Ochocinco 2 28 14.0 0 19 4
D. Woodhead 3 20 6.7 0 13 5
S. Ridley 1 8 8.0 0 8 1
J. Edelman 1 5 5.0 0 5 3
D. Branch 0 0 0.0 0 0 3
Team 30 387 12.9 4 33 45

Your argument is now getting worse, which I wasn't sure was possible. It's one thing to argue that Edelman needs to go this season. It's another to talk about that Buffalo game and point to Edelman. One is a product of a numbers game, the other is a product of insanity.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Your argument is now getting worse, which I wasn't sure was possible. It's one thing to argue that Edelman needs to go this season. It's another to talk about that Buffalo game and point to Edelman. One is a product of a numbers game, the other is a product of insanity.

Now I know why everyone on the board thinks you are argumentative and stubborn.

 

[Ring 6]

Brady threw 4 INTs against Buffalo. While maybe I did not properly convey the relationship to Edelman's ineffectiveness, I still think he was a primary reason for those INTs. Hernandez was injured and didn't play, while Branch was injured early on and had zero catches.

Look at the distribution and tell me why Brady threw 4 INTs. Obviously he was targeting Gronk/Welker ALL GAME. This was Ochocinco's third game with the Pats, while this was Edelman's third season. I would have expected him to step up and be a reliable third target in that offense, but he was completely useless despite going against Buffalo's worst defender all game.

With Branch and Hernandez out, and with Brady clearly not trusting Ochocinco, it dawned on me that Edelman has completely regressed as a WR and is never going to be good. He's been practicing with Brady for over two years, and five yards is a joke.



REC YDS AVG TD LG TGTS
W. Welker 16 217 13.6 2 33 20
R. Gronkowski 7 109 15.6 2 29 9
C. Ochocinco 2 28 14.0 0 19 4
D. Woodhead 3 20 6.7 0 13 5
S. Ridley 1 8 8.0 0 8 1
J. Edelman 1 5 5.0 0 5 3
D. Branch 0 0 0.0 0 0 3
Team 30 387 12.9 4 33 45

You couldn't have really watched that game and try to blame edleman for 4 Ints.

 

[Clonamery]

Now I know why everyone on the board thinks you are argumentative and stubborn.

I'll take argumentative and stubborn over insane any day.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I'll take argumentative and stubborn over insane any day.

Yeah, it's pretty insane that my realization that Edelman no longer justifies a roster spot came back in September of last year, and now the idea has become a popular idea in Pats nation due to influx of WRs that Belichick brought in.

You guys aren't insane, and neither am I. We just have a disagreement. I blame a lot of offensive problems on lack of viable options at WR. 2009 was Brady's worst year, and during "A Football Life", Belichick noted that the Pats had nothing outside of Moss and Welker, and that was the major issue.

I'm not going going to continue belaboring my point, as I don't hate Edelman and understand why many people don't agree with me. However, I'm sticking to my guns and guessing that the Pats are not as high on JE as many on here. He wasn't drafted to be a punt return specialist or defensive back, and after his rookie year, he has fallen way, way short of where he should be as a viable option as a 4th or 5th WR.

The fact that few of you can grasp the reason Brady threw 4 INTs against Buffalo is astounding. He locked in on Gronk and Welker the whole game because with Branch and Hernandez out, he had no one else to throw to.

 

[Deus Irae]

Now I know why everyone on the board thinks you are argumentative and stubborn.

Just to be clear, here....

You were the one who revived a thread, started by you, where you went after Edelman following the loss to the Bills. I didn't do that. I didn't prompt you. I didn't request it of you. So, when you want to talk argumentative and stubborn, remember that it was you who went back into the barrel to bring out an old argument. My contribution here, in terms of responding to your post, was merely to point out how ridiculous that thread was in the first place and, secondarily, to note that you had, indeed, been talking about getting rid of Edelman.

I'm not sure Edelman will make the team. I think the "punt returner!" argument in his defense is wildly overblown, I think the team has finally decided to get semi-serious about fixing its WR issues, and I think this team's draft has left a lot of players competing for bottom of the roster spots. However, I'm not going to try citing to some insane ramblings after a loss that had little/nothing to do with Edelman as some sort of justification for bagging on the guy six months later.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You couldn't have really watched that game and try to blame edleman for 4 Ints.

It's all in the stats. Take out dump offs to running backs and 29 out of 39 passes went to Gronk or Welker. Do you really think an offense can be effective when defenses know they only have to defend two players? Do you happen to remember that the INTs were the result of forcing the ball into double coverage, where they were deflected and picked off?

Again, the reason for that game- Branch and Hernandez were out. Ochocinco was playing in just his third game (not that he is off the hook, as we now know he is not good in our system.) So, was Edelman to blame? No, not exactly. Did the game tell us a lot about Edelman? Yes. It told us that any thoughts of him being a solid contributor on offense should go out the window. Brady obviously would not try to get him the ball and would rather throw high risk passes to solid playmakers than consider JE as an option.

 

[Deus Irae]

It's all in the stats. Take out dump offs to running backs and 29 out of 39 passes went to Gronk or Welker. Do you really think an offense can be effective when defenses know they only have to defend two players? Do you happen to remember that the INTs were the result of forcing the ball into double coverage, where they were deflected and picked off?

Again, the reason for that game- Branch and Hernandez were out. Ochocinco was playing in just his third game (not that he is off the hook, as we now know he is not good in our system.) So, was Edelman to blame? No, not exactly. Did the game tell us a lot about Edelman? Yes. It told us that any thoughts of him being a solid contributor on offense should go out the window. Brady obviously would not try to get him the ball and would rather throw high risk passes to solid playmakers than consider JE as an option.

Actually, the game told us none of this, in regards to Edelman.

 

[spacecrime]

You make a good point that Brady ignored the open man in favor of throwing to Welker and Gronk. It's pretty well documented for the past few years that he's been focusing on one or two receivers to the (sometimes) detriment of winning. The case you haven't made is that this is the fault of the guy who gets open but is not thrown to, rather than Brady for not throwing to the open man.

It's all in the stats. Take out dump offs to running backs and 29 out of 39 passes went to Gronk or Welker. Do you really think an offense can be effective when defenses know they only have to defend two players? Do you happen to remember that the INTs were the result of forcing the ball into double coverage, where they were deflected and picked off?

Again, the reason for that game- Branch and Hernandez were out. Ochocinco was playing in just his third game (not that he is off the hook, as we now know he is not good in our system.) So, was Edelman to blame? No, not exactly. Did the game tell us a lot about Edelman? Yes. It told us that any thoughts of him being a solid contributor on offense should go out the window. Brady obviously would not try to get him the ball and would rather throw high risk passes to solid playmakers than consider JE as an option.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The case you haven't made is that this is the fault of the guy who gets open but is not thrown to, rather than Brady for not throwing to the open man.

I see it as a chicken or egg thing. Brady does not throw the ball to certain players. We saw him "freeze out" a lot of guys throughout his career when he was not confident in them. Should he have been confident in them? Debatable. But one thing is for certain, once you get into that freeze zone from Brady, it's tough to come out.

I do not recall anyone whose made a significant impact in the offense ever being on the field as someone who Brady will not throw to.

So it doesn't matter why the ball didn't go to Edelman, so much as the fact Edelman was not a viable option when other players went down. Very concerning considering the amount of confidence Brady had in Edelman back in 2009.