Edelman to Defense?

[captain stone]

Steeler fans rubbing off on you :confused2: ... that is a seriously messed up statement.

I'm not sure what the first part means...and what's so messed-up about that statement?
Why is Matt Slater off-limits but Edelman isn't? Neither of them should be irreplaceable.

 

[tombonneau]

I think it would depend on how you're viewing the definition of 'slot.' In your version, it may be more incorrect than correct.

In 4-5 WR sets, only 2 guys can be on the line of scrimmage at once, so in essence there is more than one 'slot' WR on the field at once.

If your argument was that the NEP offense already runs a lot of shallow to intermediate routes, and the emergence of the 2 TE's has only increased that, then your theory would possibly hold more water. With a plethora of guys who tend to have a lot of the same skillsets (as far as running certain routes and catching the ball), Edelman apparently is not one of the better WR options, at least in the mind of Bill Belichick anyway.

I will give you the fact that he does look like he plays with a lot of heart and passion, giving his 'all' on just about every play. He did look pretty good when taking over Welker's role in the 2009 playoffs, so one would think that he may be able to replicate that performance to some degree---but not anywhere on the level that Welker himself brings it. If Wes was gone or hurt, I would certainly want to see Edelman given another chance in that role again; but no one knows if that will ever happen, or if he can carve out a niche for himself with some other effective WR role, which seems doubtful with his skillset + the level of competition in front of him right now.

Personally I think he stays, and is a typical 'value' Belichickian player; one who offers versatility in all 3 phases with a low cost to boot. However, 'where' he is slotted position-wise, and how much he contributes is certainly up for much debate.

As AndyJohnson says is so many words (paraphrasing) "Edelman is kind of like a jack of all trades, but masters none." In other words, he can offer something as one of the roster #45-53 guys, but don't count on him to excel or contribute too much. I do think he is an effective punt returner, but that alone probably isn't enough to win over a job, as someone else could do it--to a lesser degree. I think his heart, committment, and versatility win him over a spot again this year, but I really don't want him as a DB again.

I think he stays without really ever being on the bubble as some think, but I can also understand the debate with the heightened roster competition. If Welker goes (which I certainly hope does not happen) then Edelman may be re-upped next year, otherwise I really think this may be his last yr here.

Keep in mind that I do appreciate him, and I am a Edelman supporter, but the level of competition has certainly increased in certain areas too.

Good well thought out and written posting. I agree 100%. I love when other people take the time thoughtfully compose exactly what I'm thinking.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not sure what the first part means...and what's so messed-up about that statement?
Why is Matt Slater off-limits but Edelman isn't? Neither of them should be irreplaceable.

Barring something bizarre, Slater's not getting cut:

1.) Because Slater is a Pro Bowl caliber multi-group special teams player who just happens to get listed as a receiver, and Edelman is not.

2.) Because Slater just signed a three year contract that included a two million dollar signing bonus.

 

[everlong]

If they develop another punt returner my prediction is Edelman to the Chiefs for a seventh rounder.

 

[Ring 6]

It's all in the stats. Take out dump offs to running backs and 29 out of 39 passes went to Gronk or Welker. Do you really think an offense can be effective when defenses know they only have to defend two players? Do you happen to remember that the INTs were the result of forcing the ball into double coverage, where they were deflected and picked off?

Again, the reason for that game- Branch and Hernandez were out. Ochocinco was playing in just his third game (not that he is off the hook, as we now know he is not good in our system.) So, was Edelman to blame? No, not exactly. Did the game tell us a lot about Edelman? Yes. It told us that any thoughts of him being a solid contributor on offense should go out the window. Brady obviously would not try to get him the ball and would rather throw high risk passes to solid playmakers than consider JE as an option.

You don't need to come up with some whacky argument that 4 Ints were Edelmans fault to surmise that Edleman isnt a good WR.
The craziness of your argument clouds the point you are trying to make which could be made very easily with sane and cogent arguments.

 

[Arrington Planet]

Do you happen to remember that the INTs were the result of forcing the ball into double coverage, where they were deflected and picked off?

Actually, only one of the four interceptions came off forcing a pass into double coverage (IIRC it was the 3rd). The other three were:

-A pass to the flat to Woodhead.
-A deep ball to Ochocinco.
-A pass deflected at the LOS.

 

[Avenger]

Edelman as a RB seems like it would be a good fit, he ran for 1500 yards as a senior at Kent State

 

[Big-T]

Actually, only one of the four interceptions came off forcing a pass into double coverage (IIRC it was the 3rd).

Pass intended for Gronk who was bracketed I believe?

Spot on with the others too, the first one Woodhead tipped it right to a defender, Ocho rounded off his route and McKelvin jumped it (good play by McKelvin) and the one tipped at the LoS was a pick 6 IIRC.

 

[Sciz]

One of the misconceptions about Edelman that really bugs me is the thought that he's not a good receiver because he's only had 11 receptions the past two seasons. Well, there's a good reason for that. Edelman's value as a receiver comes as a direct backup to Welker. Arguing that Edelman should be cut because he doesn't catch passes is like arguing that Hoyer should be cut because he doesn't throw completions. Welker has missed four full games plus most of a fifth. Here are Edelman's stat lines in those games.

2009 Week 2: 8/98
2009 Week 3: 3/20
2009 Week 17: 10/103
2009 Week 18: 6/44/2
2010 Week 17: 3/72

Add that all up and you get 30 receptions for 337 yards. That's an average of 6 receptions for 67.4 yards per game. A WR who averages 6 receptions and 67.4 yards for a full season would catch 96 passes for 1,078 yards. Now, those aren't Welker numbers, but nobody here would be complaining if Welker misses the whole season and Edelman puts up 1,000 yards.

Sample size is small, but it's actually that 20 yard game that's bringing down the average more than the 103 yard one, and considering his two best games were 98 and 103 yards, that means neither was a complete fluke.

So don't be mad at Edelman for not producing. Be glad he hasn't had to. If he can be a great punt returner while playing on coverage units and backing up at CB as well, then that's just a bonus. His value isn't in what he has done lately, it's in what he may unfortunately have to do sometime in the future.

 

[TyronePoole]

if we sign welker to 2-3 years, is it really a good use of roster space to carry a guy that is strictly his backup? Even if he could theoretically step in in Welker's absence and be 90% of what Welker is (I'm skeptical on this) all you have is an emergency DB and a marginal ST player taking up space.

This might have made sense when the offense was more reliant on Welker, and it still is to some degree, but with the TE's emerging and being able to hold onto a guy like Ebert on the PS I just don't see the point of keeping him. This of course comes with the caveat that I'm assuming he isn't somehow magically transformed by Belichick the Magnificent into a legit DB.

P.S. I don't hate the guy either, but I don't think he's a "great punt returner," I thought he was pretty average last year.

Edit - he'd probably get snapped up by the Jets pretty quickly if we cut him, so maybe that plays into it a bit too, but I still think that's bad priorities

 

[supafly]

if we sign welker to 2-3 years, is it really a good use of roster space to carry a guy that is strictly his backup? Even if he could theoretically step in in Welker's absence and be 90% of what Welker is (I'm skeptical on this) all you have is an emergency DB and a marginal ST player taking up space.

This might have made sense when the offense was more reliant on Welker, and it still is to some degree, but with the TE's emerging and being able to hold onto a guy like Ebert on the PS I just don't see the point of keeping him. This of course comes with the caveat that I'm assuming he isn't somehow magically transformed by Belichick the Magnificent into a legit DB.

P.S. I don't hate the guy either, but I don't think he's a "great punt returner," I thought he was pretty average last year.

Edit - he'd probably get snapped up by the Jets pretty quickly if we cut him, so maybe that plays into it a bit too, but I still think that's bad priorities

He's averaging a TD on a punt return about every 24 1/2 touches, which is good for about once per season.

He had his one each per season in the last 2 yrs. In 2010 he had an 15.3 yrds per return average, which was one of the best in the NFL. He came back down to earth a bit last season, averaging 10.7.

Belichick kept him last year, as a 'return only' guy on the roster. He actually touched the ball on offense almost the same identical times as in 2010, but showed the ability to play all 3 phases of the game. The thinking is that if he was kept for ST only in the summer of 2011, I'm not sure what he's done to NOT earn that same right, especially after showing even more use in 2011.

The one and only reason for him possibly being on the bubble would be the added roster competition/more limited number of spots.

Whether or not Belichick factors that into his final equation will be decided, but I'm assuming that he's safe due to versatility and price. Belichick will have to make that choice.

As you said, the big question for keeping his beyond this upcoming season next yr will go hand in hand with the team's future plans with Welker. If they keep Welker, then he will probably not be here next yr in 2013.

 

[TyronePoole]

He's averaging a TD on a punt return about every 24 1/2 touches, which is good for about once per season.

He had his one each per season in the last 2 yrs. In 2010 he had an 15.3 yrds per return average, which was one of the best in the NFL. He came back down to earth a bit last season, averaging 10.7.

He was tied for 26th in Yards per with the immortal Brandon Tate and 17th in the league last year in total yards, not exactly a weapon.

There are plenty of guys on this roster that could fulfill that role as well as Edelman, I'm certain of it.

Belichick kept him last year, as a 'return only' guy on the roster. He actually touched the ball on offense almost the same identical times as in 2010, but showed the ability to play all 3 phases of the game. The thinking is that if he was kept for ST only in the summer of 2011, I'm not sure what he's done to NOT earn that same right, especially after showing even more use in 2011.

The one and only reason for him possibly being on the bubble would be the added roster competition/more limited number of spots.

Whether or not Belichick factors that into his final equation will be decided, but I'm assuming that he's safe due to versatility and price. Belichick will have to make that choice.

Well that's a huge reason, and of course Belichick has to factor it in. We basically are keeping everyone from last year (trade scott/fanene for anderson/carter) and adding a bunch of young players and FA's, there's simply way less room to make the team as a marginal player.

As you said, the big question for keeping his beyond this upcoming season next yr will go hand in hand with the team's future plans with Welker. If they keep Welker, then he will probably not be here next yr in 2013.

Yeah I guess his chances improve if Welker is playing just under the tag all year. I still wonder though, how good is edelman? Is he that good that he can't be replaced by Ebert or someone else? I'm not buying that he steps in and there's no drop off between him and welker. And it's an insult to DBs to assume that he can be successfully converted.

 

[supafly]

He was tied for 26th in Yards per with the immortal Brandon Tate and 17th in the league last year in total yards, not exactly a weapon.

There are plenty of guys on this roster that could fulfill that role as well as Edelman, I'm certain of it.



Well that's a huge reason, and of course Belichick has to factor it in. We basically are keeping everyone from last year (trade scott/fanene for anderson/carter) and adding a bunch of young players and FA's, there's simply way less room to make the team as a marginal player.



Yeah I guess his chances improve if Welker is playing just under the tag all year. I still wonder though, how good is edelman? Is he that good that he can't be replaced by Ebert or someone else? I'm not buying that he steps in and there's no drop off between him and welker. And it's an insult to DBs to assume that he can be successfully converted.

Well, as I said in my earlier post...his 'good' year of returning was the yr before, and he dropped from 15.3 in 2010 to 10.7 in 2011. I wasn't claiming that he had that great of a yr last yr, but when you're a PR who has the moves to bring it to the house you still offer something to your team.

Regardless, in 2010 he was one of the NFL's top punt returners, no? I could be wrong, but I thought he was up there relatively high. You are right in stating that his average and production wasn't as high last yr, although the TD and versatility probably make up for it on some level.

Averaging a TD per season in the past 2 yrs at a position where Belichick feels that we (his words) 'need to make some needed improvements' should make him pretty safe here for the upcoming yr.

I do recognize that everyone feels differently though, so I respect your opinion that he may not make it. As we both stated, only Belichick will determine how much he factors Edelman's potential jeopardy with the 'other' battles that will go on for the roster. He may not take Edelman's position into acct at all, for all we know, and he could be happy that the PR position on ST in already locked up with a player who can offer actual playing time if it came down to it.

We don't expect guys like Slater or some of the others to see the field too much either, so it's quite possible that #11 could be lumped in with those players. Only time will tell, and it will be a good TC with excellent depth and positional competition to make the 53 man roster.

My hunch tells me that Belichick values a guy in the 45-53 range who can play all 3 phases of the game (although not 'great' most aren't or they wouldn't be in the 45-53 range to begin with), is cheap on a rookie deal, knows the system and has attended many meetings on both sides of the ball, with live game reps that have been included. To me, that should make him pretty solid. The only spot he may be on the 'bubble' in is as a pure WR.

That could also change with Welker's situation, but hopefully it won't. I agree that Edelman is not going to step in and replace Welker, but as Sciz pointed out 6/67 ave yrds when he has played in that role isn't too shabby.

I think the better question is whether or not the NEP will be interested in re-upping him next yr, when his rookie deal is up (IIRC). I personally don't see as much debate in this yr's 'bubble' talk. I do however, recognize the opinions of others and realize that most will not agree on all players/positions.

 

[Reckedtrek]

If they develop another punt returner my prediction is Edelman to the Chiefs for a seventh rounder.

According to many here, we should get *at least* two first rounders for him. He's Jerry freaking Rice AND Ed Reed all rolled into one. Don't you know he had a great rookie season and then was a good punt returner in 2010? These kind of players just CAN'T be replaced, you know!

He played QB in college. If we get rid of him, you might as well kiss the Pats wildcat package right out the window. And who will we get as Wilfork's backup? Actually, Wilfork should be backing up Edelman...

(posted with a great deal of sarcasm, although many will think it is or should be true).

:bricks: :bricks: :bricks:

 

[supafly]

According to many here, we should get *at least* two first rounders for him. He's Jerry freaking Rice AND Ed Reed all rolled into one. Don't you know he had a great rookie season and then was a good punt returner in 2010? These kind of players just CAN'T be replaced, you know!

He played QB in college. If we get rid of him, you might as well kiss the Pats wildcat package right out the window. And who will we get as Wilfork's backup? Actually, Wilfork should be backing up Edelman...

(posted with great sarcasm, although many will think it is or should be true).

:bricks: :bricks: :bricks:

I also think that many are pretty reasonable about their expectations and his potential here.

As I said, I think he is lumped in with the roster #45-53 guys, and he is 'good' at one true position, and that is a PR. We can always make the same kind of argument for a player such as Tracy White, Tarpinian etc..they do not really contribute all that much with actual positional duties, but they still offer our team a 'plus' in the area of ST's.

He does add versatility in the fact that he is just as good as many of the 'other' positional outcasts such as Slater etc.

I do not want to see him on the field too much if it can be helped...unless Welker goes down or does not come back; then I would like to see him used more in the primary slot role that we saw him do well in at times.

I do not agree that he should be a defensive player either, and although Belichick forgets way more than I will ever really know about these sorts of things, I think he was nothing more than a fill in due to the poor situation in the secondary.

That all said, I applaud him greatly for being able to contribute on all 3 phases, even if that is only as a backup. It takes great dedication to be able to handle multiple assignments, attend multiple meetings/film study on both sides of the ball etc. He plays with great heart, and I believe that his friendly rookie contract, knowledge of certain schemes, and big play potential on ST are certainly enough to keep him as one of the last remaining players in that #45-53 grouping.

We all can agree that ST are a big Belichick plus, and that is also an area that we cannot move backwards on. I would certainly keep him for this upcoming season.

 

[Ring 6]

One of the misconceptions about Edelman that really bugs me is the thought that he's not a good receiver because he's only had 11 receptions the past two seasons. Well, there's a good reason for that. Edelman's value as a receiver comes as a direct backup to Welker. Arguing that Edelman should be cut because he doesn't catch passes is like arguing that Hoyer should be cut because he doesn't throw completions. Welker has missed four full games plus most of a fifth. Here are Edelman's stat lines in those games.

2009 Week 2: 8/98
2009 Week 3: 3/20
2009 Week 17: 10/103
2009 Week 18: 6/44/2
2010 Week 17: 3/72

Add that all up and you get 30 receptions for 337 yards. That's an average of 6 receptions for 67.4 yards per game. A WR who averages 6 receptions and 67.4 yards for a full season would catch 96 passes for 1,078 yards. Now, those aren't Welker numbers, but nobody here would be complaining if Welker misses the whole season and Edelman puts up 1,000 yards.

Sample size is small, but it's actually that 20 yard game that's bringing down the average more than the 103 yard one, and considering his two best games were 98 and 103 yards, that means neither was a complete fluke.

So don't be mad at Edelman for not producing. Be glad he hasn't had to. If he can be a great punt returner while playing on coverage units and backing up at CB as well, then that's just a bonus. His value isn't in what he has done lately, it's in what he may unfortunately have to do sometime in the future.

This is a bigger and more overused misconception. There is no reason that Edelman cannot play when Welker is healthy, other than the real one, that he has not been good enough to earn playing time.
If he seriously was capable of the contrived stats you came up with, he would have been on the field the last 2 years. When he has been on the field he has done nothing to indicate he could come close to those numbers, or be anything but a disaster in Welkers role.

 

[Sciz]

This is a bigger and more overused misconception. There is no reason that Edelman cannot play when Welker is healthy, other than the real one, that he has not been good enough to earn playing time.
If he seriously was capable of the contrived stats you came up with, he would have been on the field the last 2 years. When he has been on the field he has done nothing to indicate he could come close to those numbers, or be anything but a disaster in Welkers role.

Summary of this post:
"I don't like what these numbers say. I'll ignore them."

If you have stats for how many snaps Edelman has seen in the slot over the past two seasons, I'd love to see them. Other than that, it's hard to say how he'd do in the Welker role because we've only seen him do it for one game the past two seasons. You are basing your opinion on him as a slot receiver on his inability to go out of position and earn a starting job as an outside receiver. If that makes sense in your head, then I don't think arguing with me is going to get you anywhere.

 

[Deus Irae]

Summary of this post:
"I don't like what these numbers say. I'll ignore them."

If you have stats for how many snaps Edelman has seen in the slot over the past two seasons, I'd love to see them. Other than that, it's hard to say how he'd do in the Welker role because we've only seen him do it for one game the past two seasons. You are basing your opinion on him as a slot receiver on his inability to go out of position and earn a starting job as an outside receiver. If that makes sense in your head, then I don't think arguing with me is going to get you anywhere.

I see you asking for stats on Edelman slot snaps. Reiss has the offensive snap totals, which is probably as close as it gets:

2010: Edelman - 17.2%
2011: Edelman - 13.3%

WR Julian Edelman's snaps were also down -- from 17.2% to 13.3%. ... The Patriots used an offensive lineman as an eligible receiver/tight end on 192 snaps (14.3%).

Offensive snaps for 2010 season - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

Final '11 offensive snap counts - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[Ring 6]

Summary of this post:
"I don't like what these numbers say. I'll ignore them."

Only if you want to be ignorant and pretend anyone who disagrees with you couldn't possibly be objective, because they disagree with you.

If you have stats for how many snaps Edelman has seen in the slot over the past two seasons, I'd love to see them.

The % was listed, and its about 15% over 2 years, where he caught 11 passes. If we assume a 'slot receiver' plays 2/3s of the plays, then his 11 project to 66 in 2 years as a 'starting slot'. I am not impressed.

Other than that, it's hard to say how he'd do in the Welker role because we've only seen him do it for one game the past two seasons. You are basing your opinion on him as a slot receiver on his inability to go out of position and earn a starting job as an outside receiver. If that makes sense in your head, then I don't think arguing with me is going to get you anywhere.

There is room on the field for more than 1 slot receiver. The Patriots have consistently and increasing put other players in that spot than Edelman.

 

[doesntmatter1]

I have recently rewatched many of our games from this past season and looked strictly at our wideouts and our offense in general. Then I looked at edelman playing db in the philly and baltimore game and I came away with a mixed outlook.

As a wideout we often compare him to welker but after watching many games we should compare him to hernandez. He runs the EXACT routes and plays hernandez does, even the ones where it involves them lining up in the backfield. On alot of the plays, I noticed it was often branch, welker, gronk, hernandez, and woodhead. All of them consistenly got open and then from time to time edelman would come inplace of hernandez, run the same play and fail to get open the way hernandez does, not even on the easy drag routes.

Here's the problem, he has suspect hands, he doesn't have the size herenandez does, and he just may be the worst route runner i've seen in some time(rounds his routes). Then i wondered if he could beat out branch so i took my time looking only at those two. Looking strictly at these two i came away with a new respect for branch's game. Though they both lack deep speed, branch's routes were so sharp and actually got open waaay more than I realized and just wasn't thrown the ball. Branch ran decoy routes to perfection that allowed easy completions to our te and he is an underated blocker. Edelman on the other hand was easily slowed down by contact and failed to run pick routes the way branch did nor did he get much separation and I could see why brady didn't even look his way half the time. If edelman isn't catching bubble screens where his elusiveness shines, he is pretty much useless as a wide receiver.

Now onto edelman and special teams. From what I could see(wish i could see an aerial view on this) he is pretty good containing his lane and is a solid tackler. And some of his punt returns showcased amazing vision and quickness. He simply is one of the most dangerous punt returners in the league.

Now onto him playing slot db. This was very promising, especially the eagles game. His tackling was very solid, stayed close to the receiver, and above all got some really effective jams off. Now the baltimore game wasn't nearly as bad as people think it was. Edelman played slot the entire game and didn't have any problems until the fourth quarter. And yes he was covering bolden in the first half as well. And when you consider how physical anquan is I would say edelman did damn good. In the fourth, edelman had tight coverage for the most part and on one of bolden's big catch and runs edelman was close to him but it kinda seemed like noone was really covering him and it was just a hole in the zone.

If it were up to me he would never see the field as a wideout even if we didn't have welker etc. I value special teams but not particulary the pr because its not often they bring it the house so that wouldn't be enough for me to keep him. I would let him compete at db and see if he can win a roster spot on that alone.

PS- i dont care about his performance in the 09 raven game because his welker imitation led us to a horrible offensive showing where I believe an 80% welker would have at least made the game competetive. Lastly, if we can cut tate, who was a pretty good returner and held college records, i don't see how edelman can make make it honestly after all the signings. In some ways i view edelman as a white hester without the deep speed. And like hester, he doesnt really have a position.