Does BB Need To Bring In An Experienced DC To Rebuild The Defense?

[ausbacker]

This is an excellent post and spot on. Reflects my sentiments exactly.

I'm not so concerned about bringing in a new DC more the Patriots filling the defense with a combination of draft hits and impact Free Agent signings in 2012. Injuries and the lockout have played a big part in the defensive "demise" but the lack of defensive talent must be addressed with hits.

Carter and Anderson have been a nice launch point in 2011.

 

[Tunescribe]

I'm not so concerned about bringing in a new DC more the Patriots filling the defense with a combination of draft hits and impact Free Agent signings in 2012. Injuries and the lockout have played a big part in the defensive "demise" but the lack of defensive talent must be addressed with hits.

Carter and Anderson have been a nice launch point in 2011.

Perhaps the Pats actually will USE the two firsts and two seconds in next spring's draft. Wouldn't that be exciting? I'd love to see one used on a wide receiver and the rest on defense.

I think Dowling will develop into a keeper. But otherwise, it's mystifying how this organization appears to have a perpetual blind spot drafting/finding/developing solid contributors at defensive back and wide receiver.

 

[ausbacker]

Perhaps the Pats actually will USE the two firsts and two seconds in next spring's draft. Wouldn't that be exciting? I'd love to see one used on a wide receiver and the rest on defense.

I think Dowling will develop into a keeper. But otherwise, it's mystifying how this organization appears to have a perpetual blind spot drafting/finding/developing solid contributors at defensive back and wide receiver.

We're in agreement. It'll be interesting to see what BB does. I'm certain he doesn't put his head in the ground and dismiss the problems, it's more a matter of hitting on the acquisitions, something which the Patriots have a mixed record of late.

 

[The_Riddler]

Even the best personnel decisions in the world can't rebuild 96% of a defensive roster in a few years, and (I believe) Wilfork is the only guy on defense right now (with Wright on IR) to have been on the team in 07. Rebuilding the defense would have gone faster if Belichick had been perfect on his personnel decisions as opposed to just above average, but I don't think any other team in the NFL can say they've only had one constant over the last 4 years on defense.

Are you related to BB? Long lost Uncle maybe?

"if Belichick had been PERFECT on his personnel decision as opposed to just ABOVE AVERAGE"

WHAT! I love the wording, PERFECT, no one is perfect with personnel decisions, all we're asking for from BB is to be NEAR AVERAGE if that's possible. Where in the world do you get ABOVE AVERAGE? Yikes man.

 

[Sciz]

Are you related to BB? Long lost Uncle maybe?

"if Belichick had been PERFECT on his personnel decision as opposed to just ABOVE AVERAGE"

WHAT! I love the wording, PERFECT, no one is perfect with personnel decisions, all we're asking for from BB is to be NEAR AVERAGE if that's possible. Where in the world do you get ABOVE AVERAGE? Yikes man.

I've been telling people forever to show me numbers that support him being below average, but no one does. Here one site that puts that Pats at #1 over the last 10 years. It's a little outdated (for example, Maroney is no longer in the league, the first of Bill's first rounders with the Pats to not make an NFL roster, I believe) and goes all the way back 10 years, it's a ton more actual analysis than all the mindless "grass is greener" people.

Decade in the making: the ultimate NFL draft grades | Cold Hard Football Facts

 

[Ivan]

I wouldn't rule out a return of Crennel as Belichik will always do what he believes is the right thing for the team but he would have to be pretty certain Patricia and Johnson don't have what it takes to be DC. To this point I believe the reason he hasn't named either DC is because he doesn't believe the defense is good enough to hand over and realized the outcry for a head to be lopped off had they been in charge of this D.

Crennel is probably not going to get the job in KC and unlike Weiss is probably not going the college route for a head coaching gig, so if Belichik calls, which he should IMO, then I can see him returning.

I don't believe going outside for a DC makes sense overall but Crennel is the exception to that.

 

[Ivan]

I've been telling people forever to show me numbers that support him being below average, but no one does. Here one site that puts that Pats at #1 over the last 10 years. It's a little outdated (for example, Maroney is no longer in the league, the first of Bill's first rounders with the Pats to not make an NFL roster, I believe) and goes all the way back 10 years, it's a ton more actual analysis than all the mindless "grass is greener" people.

Decade in the making: the ultimate NFL draft grades | Cold Hard Football Facts

I agree with this completely. Belichik gets ripped by many for his drafts but his track record is much better than he gets credit for, and those who rip him routinely ignore how he creates good picks by moving around year after year (e.g. Kyle Boller becomes Vince Wilfork), trading picks for players, some misses but also Welker, Moss, Dillon, and the success he has had with late round picks and UDFA's.

The bottom line is that you cannot have this run of success if you suck at drafting, and Belichik doesn't he just has his share of notable misses like everyone else, but since anyone can be a draft expert they will always be considerably magnified by the "wisdom" of those "experts."

 

[Ivan]

Lmao-that analysis makes it goddamn hard for any of the critics to make any fact based argument that rebuts it. They can say "what about so and so...." but the overall picture will remain the same

 

[jays52]

Are you related to BB? Long lost Uncle maybe?

"if Belichick had been PERFECT on his personnel decision as opposed to just ABOVE AVERAGE"

WHAT! I love the wording, PERFECT, no one is perfect with personnel decisions, all we're asking for from BB is to be NEAR AVERAGE if that's possible. Where in the world do you get ABOVE AVERAGE? Yikes man.

The general measure of good drafting is for teams to hit on their first rounders, and to do well enough on their second pick. The Patriots have been elite in this regard over the past decade.

2001: Richard Seymour- Hall of Famer, Matt Light-10 year high level starter
2002: Daniel Graham- Very solid player, Deion Branch- Hit
2003: Ty Warren- Pro-Bowler, consistent top-5 34 end, Bethel Johnson- Elite return man, receiver bust.
2004: Vince Wilfork- top 5 defensive tackle, Ben Watson- not a bust
2005: Logan Mankins- top three guard, Ellis Hobbs- not bad for a 3rd rounder
2006: Laurence Maroney- not as bad a tenure many think, but not good. Chad Jackson- bust.
2007: Brandon Meriweather- not a total flop, arguably their worst 1st rounder
2008: Jerod Mayo- top-5 inside linebacker, Terrence Wheatley- Bust
2009: Patrick Chung- hit, Darius Butler- bust
2010: Devin McCourty- 1st year probowler, Rob Gronkowski- best TE in NFL, having the best season for a TE in NFL history, potential to be the GOAT.
2011: Nate Solder- hit, Ras-I Dowling- jury's out, looked excellent in limited reps.

I can think of a lot of fan bases that would kill for a decade of drafting this poorly.

 

[ausbacker]

I wouldn't rule out a return of Crennel as Belichik will always do what he believes is the right thing for the team but he would have to be pretty certain Patricia and Johnson don't have what it takes to be DC. To this point I believe the reason he hasn't named either DC is because he doesn't believe the defense is good enough to hand over and realized the outcry for a head to be lopped off had they been in charge of this D.

Crennel is probably not going to get the job in KC and unlike Weiss is probably not going the college route for a head coaching gig, so if Belichik calls, which he should IMO, then I can see him returning.

I don't believe going outside for a DC makes sense overall but Crennel is the exception to that.

The Patriots have been kind enough to the Chiefs. Sure the Patriots have benefited from the Brian Waters signing but to truly return the favor, Crennel should bring Tamba Hali and Eric Berry with him (maybe even Dwayne Bowe if we really have too).

 

[TheGreatestEVER]

The Patriots have been kind enough to the Chiefs. Sure the Patriots have benefited from the Brian Waters signing but to truly return the favor, Crennel should bring Tamba Hali and Eric Berry with him (maybe even Dwayne Bowe if we really have too).

Eric Berry alone would be great alongside Pat Chung, with Chung playing the down hill safety for run support, and Eric Berry being the ball hawk Reed type safety. The secondary would automatically be good with hopefully McCourty getting back to where he was in 2010 and Ras-I playing like she showed he could in limited time before injury. Arrington playing slot. I think that secondary would be good, but a lot of ifs.

Who needs Hali when we have Carter and Anderson assuming we can resign them lol. Too bad this would never happen unless Berry was an over the hill 14 year veteran player.

 

[Kontradiction]

Says you. First off there isn't an experienced DC who can run his system other than maybe Mangini or RAC - both of whom he taught to I might add - and neither of them wants to come back here for reasons tied to ego more than anything nor does either of them have a track record of making great drafting and personnel decisions.

People have been using this excuse for years. Belichick had no problem bringing Capers (who also runs a different D in Green Bay, I might add) in to coach the secondary back in 2008. He got it. It's not like our god damn defense is the Matrix that only a select few can understand. Two years later, Capers has the pieces on defense to help the offense make a championship run and his defense is the reason for the NFCCG victory over the Bears. So let's not act like Belichick hasn't brought in experienced guys on the defensive side of the ball before.

Changing the way he does things means he'd have to lose the courage of his convictions which have largely brought 2 organizations 5 rings and led this one to 4 superbowls in just your mis-spent youth...

His convictions are a big part of the reason why this defense sucks so badly to date. He's whiffed on several defensive pieces in the draft (including a reigning DROY who can't play man coverage for fear of losing his man) as well as several personnel decisions on that side of the ball up to and including: Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders, and Richard Seymour. All three of those guys could help the defensive immensely right now. All three were let go by Belichick.

No HC or GM has a better track record over the last decade. Name me one who could turn a roster over in 3 years or less without skipping a beat from a W-L record standpoint. The lockout exacerbated the problem inherent in moving on so I'm willing to give him a mulligan of sorts this season.

Having a guy named Tom Brady, one of the greatest (if not the greatest) QB's of all time under center during that span doesn't hurt. Neither does the fact that the offense has been ranked in the top three every season since the roster turnover has occurred. So yes, we haven't skipped a beat. But it's not all because of Belichick. The offense has carried us throughout the regular season enough for you to make your claim. When the postseason has occurred, it's been embarrassing... and that's been largely because of the defensive side of the ball.

Beats the hell out of nudging him out the door which sadly is what the majority of knuckleheads who voted in this poll seem to think would be the way to proceed (although in their defense they apparently either don't grasp the significance of what they are voting for...or they're in denial).

I challenge you to quote me saying that I want him out the door. Because I don't. I still think the Belichick is an all-time coaching great and the best in the business right now. However, Belichick is still human. He's not a robot or a machine. He's a human being like the rest of us who is prone to making mistakes. What can having another experienced DC who can implement his defense hurt? It can't. Like I said, we've been re-building the defensive side of the ball since 2008 and it's only gotten worse because Belichick has failed to replace the pieces that have left. In a similar situation, Denver had the worst defense in the league in 2008 and had to begin re-building. Today, they're the REAL reason why Denver has been as hot as it's been. Through Tebow's bumbling in the first three quarters, Denver's defense has always kept them in it. Contrast that to our defense that can't even get off the field or force a turnover against the great Rex Grossman. :ugh:

 

[Kontradiction]

The problem isn't Belichick as a coach or Belichick's system. It's a lack of talent. They've simply failed to replace the talent that started leaving the roster after 2007.

That is on Belichick.

They've only recently had some solid additions through the draft, but they aren't enough, and one (McCourty) has regressed significantly.

Agreed.

If the idea is to bring in someone who help find defensive talent, then I'd support that. But we don't need a new DC.

Partially agreed. That person should be the defensive coordinator.

 

[Ivan]

So then it's his personnel decisions that are the problem?

Or is it both.

Sure don't take much to confuse you

Pretty ironic statement from a Jet fan acting like a Patriots fan on a Patriots board.

 

[Ivan]

So when I'd the rebuilding start? And what pieces are in place for the long haul? What future greats are we looking at from thi rebuilding process?

Tralala lala!!!!

I don't know, Scott is on his last legs and the safeties suck, revis is a great corner but Wilson is nothing special. Maybe a Jet board would have a better idea?

 

[Ivan]

The Patriots have been kind enough to the Chiefs. Sure the Patriots have benefited from the Brian Waters signing but to truly return the favor, Crennel should bring Tamba Hali and Eric Berry with him (maybe even Dwayne Bowe if we really have too).

They really have to be much more aggressive in free agency in putting together a first rate D, it can't always be bargains. I realize the Colvin and Thomas signings have them somewhat antsy about going after the top prizes but they have to tgake some chances.

 

[IllegalContact]

Pretty ironic statement from a Jet fan acting like a Patriots fan on a Patriots board.

LOL.........if you say so

 

[Ivan]

LOL.........if you say so

Actually I am almost certain you said you root for the Jets yourself, I didn't make it up. I think the statement was " So I root for the jets, does that make me a bad person?" to which I responded that. It didn't make you a bad person but pretending to bea Patriots fan here did make you a douche.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

People have been using this excuse for years. Belichick had no problem bringing Capers (who also runs a different D in Green Bay, I might add) in to coach the secondary back in 2008. He got it. It's not like our god damn defense is the Matrix that only a select few can understand. Two years later, Capers has the pieces on defense to help the offense make a championship run and his defense is the reason for the NFCCG victory over the Bears. So let's not act like Belichick hasn't brought in experienced guys on the defensive side of the ball before.

That defense Capers runs in GB must be top five they way you're carrying on about it... He brought Capers in because coaching is a fraternity and he was beyond down on his luck and not even under consideration for another coordinators position after failing as a HC and DC in back to back gigs. Remind me again what impact he had here...as a "special assistant" and secondary coach... Capers inherited whatever pieces Ted Thompson and Mike McCarthy put in place in GB. Not to mention that QB they replaced Favre with and all those shiny receiving weapons.



His convictions are a big part of the reason why this defense sucks so badly to date. He's whiffed on several defensive pieces in the draft (including a reigning DROY who can't play man coverage for fear of losing his man) as well as several personnel decisions on that side of the ball up to and including: Brandon Meriweather, James Sanders, and Richard Seymour. All three of those guys could help the defensive immensely right now. All three were let go by Belichick.

His convictions are why we still win even when things suck or the HOF franchise QB is lost for an entire season. Meriweather is a jackass, Sanders is a jag and Richard is overpaid and overhyped and here he was a negative leader.


Having a guy named Tom Brady, one of the greatest (if not the greatest) QB's of all time under center during that span doesn't hurt. Neither does the fact that the offense has been ranked in the top three every season since the roster turnover has occurred. So yes, we haven't skipped a beat. But it's not all because of Belichick. The offense has carried us throughout the regular season enough for you to make your claim. When the postseason has occurred, it's been embarrassing... and that's been largely because of the defensive side of the ball.


No offense but who the F do you think drafted the QB and developed him and identified Branch and Welker and brought in Moss and most recently drafted the best young TE tandem in the league...the friggin Easter Bunny?


I challenge you to quote me saying that I want him out the door. Because I don't. I still think the Belichick is an all-time coaching great and the best in the business right now. However, Belichick is still human. He's not a robot or a machine. He's a human being like the rest of us who is prone to making mistakes. What can having another experienced DC who can implement his defense hurt? It can't. Like I said, we've been re-building the defensive side of the ball since 2008 and it's only gotten worse because Belichick has failed to replace the pieces that have left. In a similar situation, Denver had the worst defense in the league in 2008 and had to begin re-building. Today, they're the REAL reason why Denver has been as hot as it's been. Through Tebow's bumbling in the first three quarters, Denver's defense has always kept them in it. Contrast that to our defense that can't even get off the field or force a turnover against the great Rex Grossman. :ugh:

Denver is giving up a lot less yards that we are, or GB is or NO is... I wonder why. Maybe it's because their offense is so inept for most of the game it lulls opponents to sleep. And like Gruden reminded folks a few weeks back, they don't list yardage on scoreboards for a reason, as much as Bill's detractors would like them to. It would make Caper's Green Bay D look bad. Not to mention NO's. Our much maligned D somehow remains above average when points allowed is the benchmark, even with all our late game meltdowns, unlike Denver's D. And Denver hasn't faced nearly the level of competition. Go figure.

You want him out the door if you want a HC with a fist full of rings and total control of football ops and his ticket to Canton already punched not to mention a defensive game plan already enshrined there from his own coordinator days reduced to bringing in some outside interloper to not only coordinate his defense but select the talent. He is certainly a human being prone to making mistakes just like the rest of us. However listening to you and the rest of the peanut gallery would be the biggest mistake and one he's not going to make. Were he forced to he'd probably opt to become a Lacrosse HC. And let you carry on opining about what is wrong with the patriots in that aftermath.

 

[JMarr]

You want him out the door if you want a HC with a fist full of rings and total control of football ops and his ticket to Canton already punched not to mention a defensive game plan already enshrined there from his own coordinator days reduced to bringing in some outside interloper to not only coordinate his defense but select the talent. He is certainly a human being prone to making mistakes just like the rest of us. However listening to you and the rest of the peanut gallery would be the biggest mistake and one he's not going to make. Were he forced to he'd probably opt to become a Lacrosse HC. And let you carry on opining about what is wrong with the patriots in that aftermath.

You mean the same defensive coordinator days where he ran a mainly attacking 3-4 on almost every snap, spearheaded by a freelancing LB who also was the best defensive player of all time and a wrecking-crew that included players like Marshall, Burt, Reasons, Pepper, Banks and Carson?

As opposed to the recent past, when, in order to try to stay ahead of whatever schematic "curve" that may still exist out there, he drafts only quick-hipped smurf CBs for awhile, only to realize later that it's like putting out lambs to the slaughter vs. increasing numbers of tall physical wideouts? Or, after refusing for years to draft DLs and LBs who didn't fit the physical prototype to run a 2 gap 3-4, he realizes that, partly due to most teams now running a base 3-4, there are next to no college players available to fit that scheme--end result being that he's been passing up stud DLinemen and LBs the last several years who would have worked just fine in an atmosphere where one single base alignment makes less and less sense? Where defenses have become so complex that physicality and instinct may well be the most important traits to look for in a defender?

I agree with your point that there's probably no one out there better qualified to run a defense, but that doesn't address the fact that he's now the HC, GM, main talent evaluator, etc all in one and things have changed drastically since the 90's and early 2000's. He's not a spring chicken anymore and like it or not, his job has become mainly managerial in nature, more so each passing year. Only glimpses of that defensive whiz kid that constructed the Giants' SB defenses remain.

Any good manager knows when it's time to delegate more, and also when the people you're trying to delegate to may not be capable of doing the job. and to BB's infinite credit, in the past he's never been hesitant to jettison a football plan that's no longer working. The question is whether or not the same will be true regarding a plan to manage the Patriots' defense going forward.